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Arrest Israel's New Defence Attache Eden Attias as a Gaza War Criminal

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Unionist
Online
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Catchfire wrote:

Thanks for that patient explanation, Unionist. That's a fair point. I didn't get any private message, though. Or was that a joke?

I flagged it as offensive, and in the comment field gave essentially the same explanation as above, in abbreviated form. I didn't send a PM.

Quote:
I'll leave it to kropotkin to remove the cartoon if he wishes.

I honestly don't think it needs to be removed. It just needs to be understood. It's kind of a useful object lesson. I've been facing anti-Semitic memes all my life. The anti-Semites killed my family, but this cartoon won't kill anyone.


Mr.Tea
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Joined: Jul 9 2011

For the record, I never said it should be removed and still don't think it should. I just wasn't going to let it stand without commenting on it. Unionist did so more patiently and in more detail and I agree with him. The reason it's anti-Semitic is that the cartoonist made sure to emphasize the JEWISH features of the kid.

As to the question of NDPP's use of "dirty zionist"; I don't think that the combination of words on their own are necessarily anti-Semitic. And I don't judge people by a single action or inadvertent mistake. But this is a guy with a long history of linking to vicious anti-Semitic hate sites (such as those featuring Gilad Atmzon), a guy who after a right wing extremist committed an atrocity in Norway engaged in conspiracy theories that this was actually an Israeli plot and after Jewish schoolchidren were gunned down in the streets in Toulouse, France engaged in despicable conspiracy theorizing that THIS TOO was a Jewish plot. Taken as a whole, I think he has a weird creepy obsession with Jews and that the sum of his actions push him across the line into a category that I have no trouble recognizing as anti-Semitic.


Unionist
Online
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Please leave NDPP alone. He has done nothing wrong, and he is a valued member of this community. Even assholes like Atzmon are not the subject of any universal consensus. This discussion (for god knows what reason) is about terminology and symbolism and messages and feelings and lived experience. I pride myself on having a very good nose for real anti-Semites. Let me give you some examples of messages received from my nose: Stephen Harper. John Baird. Not NDPP. Far from it.

The real problem is this: As long as the mass murdering war criminals continue to speak in the name of Jews, and continue to fraudulently depict themselves as the "Jewish State", it's going to be difficult to sort out the confusion in the public mind. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep doing it. But we should also recognize that some confusion is based on the dilemmas that real life hurls into our path.

 


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

Quote:

The cartoon properly portrays the Palestinian child, IMHO. But it portrays the Israeli child wearing a yarmulke and earlocks. Do you know of any Israeli Zionist war criminals and mass murderers that look like that? No, of course you don't. They look like Netanyahu and Peres and Barak and Ariel Sharon and all the others. We could add their allies and enablers: Bush, Harper, Blair, Obama... Secular, western, thugs. But the cartoonist wanted to make sure everyone knew that this kid is a JEW.

My ex father-in-law, a man who would go years without stepping foot in a synagogue, treated me like shit under his shoe because I wasn't Jewish (which caused a major rift between father and son and made family gatherings excrutiatingly tense). 

My then husband's grandfather, a deeply religious orthodox Russian Jew, was always kind to me.  He was a good man -- fair, open-minded and wanted nothing more than to see a just peace in the Middle East before he died.

It wasn't about religion.  My father-in-law was a domineering, racist (he referred to his stepson's girlfriend as a "kaffir" because she was from South America and had olive skin), controlling asshole. Had he been at all interested in politics he would've made an exemplary Zionist.

I don't have an opinion on whether the cartoon itself is anti-Semitic, but it was certainly an error on the cartoonist's part to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Rebecca West wrote:

I don't have an opinion on whether the cartoon itself is anti-Semitic, but it was certainly an error on the cartoonist's part to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism.

But isn't it anti-Semitic, almost be definition, "to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism"?


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

Sven wrote:

Rebecca West wrote:

I don't have an opinion on whether the cartoon itself is anti-Semitic, but it was certainly an error on the cartoonist's part to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism.

But isn't anti-Semitic, almost be definition, "to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism"?

I don't know.  Is it?


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Thank you for your post Unionist.  I get your point and respect it but I do not agree with it. The major war criminals are the men in suits in Tel Aviv there is no denying that. However the settler movement in the occupied territories uses those religious symbols.  They are the majority of the people who are on the ground in the faces of Palestinians. They are the face of the Israeli war machine to the Palestinian people.

When I saw that cartoon I did not see a Jewish boy I saw a settler boy.  When I see footage from the occupied territories that is the imagery I see.  When the religious symbols are combined with the Israeli flag and the setting is Rafah to me it is a political statement about the settler movement. I know you believe that religion plays no role and in large part I agree with that at the governmental level but not at the street level in Occupied Palestine, the religious is political. 

The nastiest occupiers look just like the cartoon picture. I found this interesting photo essay with a few clicks.  I think it highlights what I mean.  I see Israeli settlers and their IDF allies and they mostly look like the cartoon. Those are always the images I see when I see conflict in the Occupied territories between settlers and Palestinians.

In Canadian terms it is like denying that Christian beliefs were not part and parcel of our settler movement. The religion in both cases allows the settler society to dehumanize the other because they are not TRUE believers.

 

A Jewish settler argues with a Palestinian demonstrator during a protest against an illegal outpost near the Israeli settlement of Kharsina in the West Bank city of Hebron on May 22, 2009. (HAZEM BADER/AFP/Getty Images)

 

Settlers study together inside a Yeshiva (religious school) in the Havat Gilad illegal outpost, west of the occupied West Bank city of Nablus, on May 27, 2009. (JONATHAN NACKSTRAND/AFP/Getty Images)


Jewish settlers look on as Israeli police remove a vehicle and implement an order to tear down a wildcat outpost near the Migron settlement in the occupied West Bank on May 3, 2009. (MARCO LONGARI/AFP/Getty Images) 

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/israeli_settlements_in_the_wes....


Mr.Tea
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Joined: Jul 9 2011

Rebecca West wrote:

I don't have an opinion on whether the cartoon itself is anti-Semitic, but it was certainly an error on the cartoonist's part to equate religious orthodoxy with the kind of far right conservatism at the core of Zionism.

The error was also to use a little kid as a stand-in for a government and for a state of millions of people. The message wasn't that Netanyahu or Sharon or Livni or Olmert are "murderers". It's that all Israelis are (the kid's father is un-named, just a generic Israeli and, apaprently, a murderer) (particularly Israelis with emphasized Jewish features?). Hell, even the TODDLERS are bloodthirsty killers. I will say, having been to Israel a few times, that I've never seen toddlers packing handguns.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Rebecca West wrote:

I don't know.  Is it?

Well, it strikes me that it may be.

I think where criticism of a belief in Judaism may be appropriate would be if a person believes in Zionist principles because it is alleged to be based on some God-given right, perhaps akin to an Xian arguing that "intelligent design" should be taught in schools because of "what God said in the Bible".  In other words, if a key premise of an argument is based on a religious belief, then I think the religious belief is fair game.


Mr.Tea
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Joined: Jul 9 2011

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 However the settler movement in the occupied territories uses those religious symbols.  

And suicide bombers who murder Israelis as they sit in cafes or alQueda terrorists flying planes into buildings use Islamic religious symbols. And fanatics who bomb abortion clinics or gay bars use Christian symbols.

It doesn't mean that anyone with a cross, a crescent moon or a star of David around their neck (or a hijab or yarmulke on their head) is some sort of violent bloodthirsty extremist.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ kropotkin

It seems to me the question is not what one sees on the ground (since we all have many many sides and many values),

What is important is what the editorial cartoonist draws as things to be hated and ridiculed in the limited space of a cartoon. 

I presume the Nike swoosh and the pistol  were there as a statement, not just an irrelevant bit of fashion sense drawn from life. As for the kipa and locks, well if it wasn't an intended attack, there is certainly the possibility that one might infer guilt by association, even though there are plenty of orthodox believers who oppose Zionism.

After all, as with any editorial, the obvious assumption is that the content means something. It isn't just a cartoon.

 

 


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Closing for length. Perhaps any new thread could limit itself to discussion of Eden Attias himself.


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