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Mass(e) Amnesty
May 2, 2012 - 10:42pm
Because it deserves its own thread.
Great idea. A fresh start. While you're at it, get Jeff House back. That might inspire Ottawa Observer to come back. A start of a flood?
As far as I am aware, everyone who posts regularly nowadays at enmasse or elsewhere is welcome to post here on babble and they decline for their own reasons, most of which I respect. In the many years since Jeff House was banned by our predecessors, to my knowledge he has never expressed interest in returning, nor do I know if he even reads this site anymore.
OttawaObserver is likewise welcome to post here if she wishes.
I hope all from here who went there can be persuaded to return. If only to tell us why they don't wish to...
Really? Magoo can return here?
That'd be interesting. How about just until they're back up again, after which he can be promptly banned again?
Some days it'd be like the first.
This thread also gives us a chance to address the issue of Babble's banning policy as well.
But to the specific question of EnMasse. It was born as a result of questionable labour practices at Babble. After a tumultuous first year which included its own schism resulting in the creation of Bread and Roses it settled down into a relatively quiet and hands-off moderating position, probably as a result of a smaller number of posters. It's most prolific poster was Heph, and since his untimely death no one has stepped into the breach to fill this very large void. (Parenthetically, those of us who post at BNR have also been touched by death when our beloved Croghan passed away.)
So where am I going with this ramble. EnMasse has develpoped a slightly different culture than Babble most notably the provision of elected moderators. I'll post at EnMasse again, if it is resusciated. That said I don't believe it has enough regulars to sustain good conversation. This was recently a topic of discussion on the site as well. Additionally, posting at Babble has fallen. I think the discussion would be much livelier and productive if people who posted at only one of these sites posted together.
Now I know why some NDPers get pissed at those of us who'd like to go the whole hog all at once. From my perspective, which Caissa notes as well, the two communities have their own distinctiveness and culture. Except perhaps for a few posters that had previously encountered some difficulty here, and do not post as a result, or by the same token can't come here to post, there are no borders or boundaries or customs checks that I'm aware of preventing the free exchange of leftist perspectives between the two sites, when both are running of course. On the other hand, if Enmasse is ultimately determined by its actual participants and administrators to be unviable, and the people who are able to or want to gravitate here, I for one wouldn't want Enmasse posters like Ann Cameron, Sybjyn and Magoo, all of whom apparently can't post here as far as I know, to be trampled and forgotten about in the great stampede.
It certainly sounds like it would be a shot in the arm for this place...
I couldn't keep up with the threads if we had a big influx of posters from other forums - when babble is exceptionally busy like during the recent NDP convention I had to leave for a week or two to catch up with other stuff. If babble became exceptionally busy on a permanent basis, I'd consider leaving permanently and just post at BNR.
I doubt you'll have to worry about that.
ETA: What you said makes no sense to me I have to say.
I hear you...
Now that summer is almost upon us I doubt I'll be here much, anyway. So it won't really make a lot of difference if a lot of new members sign up - at least until I return to babble more frequently in the fall and winter.
Babble could easily absorb the amount of discussion that has been taking place at enMasse in the last year or so.
What a joke.
What's the joke?
After leaving this place last fall I tried to post at enmasse. The poeple there were friendly but unfortunately there were too few to sustain a conversation. Eventually I decided to come back here after more than three months.
It would be unfortunate if this place were to lose critical mass as well. I do think over time that is a real risk and effort should be spent trying to avoid that.
I had not realized enmasse was gone till I saw this thread-- can anyone tell me what happened?
From this thread:
Technically, I can post at babble, however, everytime I do, there is a moderator who seems to get all pissy with me if I disagree with them on something. I know I'm following the policy (and am extremely careful to), but can't help feeling that the overall culture does not tolerate a level of difference of opinion nor does it hold mods to the same policy of civil discourse as others at all times.
Cue snarky comment in: three, two, one....
Also, the software here is buggy - I have difficulty in posting, loses my posts, doesn't like me to edit. Not sure why. Only with the new laptop.
Hi TB
I dropped you a line about the new subsidy announement back at enmasse.
And I don't want to turn this conversation back on babble, but since the question has been raised of why people don't just close up shop and come back in under the big tent (or smaller tent, depending on one's point of view) , I think the answer should be obvious.
Aside from those who are actually kicked or hounded out of places, people are going to hang out where they feel comfortable and effective. One might take that in a negative way; really, I don't see the point.
My preference would be that since the other site is experiencing difficulties at present, and we find ourselves at least momentarily in the company of our friends from Enmasse; notwithstanding the fact that some of us are those very same friends due to cross pollination and such; that since we're here speaking as members of this board acting in a sense as hosts, that we do so with all the courtesy we're able to muster. Focusing away from the past might be one way of going about it.
The loss of Ottawa Observer here is huge.
I think some of the toxicity has been reduced over the last while. If anyone can beg her to give this place another try it would be well worth it if there was any chance that she would come back.
I went for 3 months thinking I would never come back but in the end I did, first thinking only for a couple posts but then I was posting again regularly. I only hope she does as well. Her voice is missing in many of these discussions.
I am wholly, 100%, totally in favour of granting the banned EnMassers amnesty.
I checked alexa.com, and traffic at rabble/babble hasn't really dropped in the last year. We've got about 30 threads going over the 24 hours. That's down from its heyday where we would have about 50, but not in real danger of straight up dropping off the map. There's still activity here.
On big difference I've noticed over the 8 years (oh god, THAT long?) I've been here is that the diversity of viewpoints and amount of rabble-rousing on babble has dropped off a cliff. We used to have champions for LGBT rights - Heph and Reality Bites. We used to have a lot more token Liberals to argue with. We used to have token Green Party members (I don't count, not really a partisan for that party anymore). We had a progressive conservative we tolerated, sometimes cheerfully (where is HeywoodFloyd?). We used to have a progressivish blogging economist posting here - Stephen Gordon. He was no socialist, many argued no social democrat, but it would have been nice to be able to talk at someone who now has a column in the buisness section of the Globe and Mail. (Congrats, Mr. Gordon, if you're reading this. I hope you don't hate all of us).
This discussion forum was alot more engaging back then. Not that there aren't arguments now, but sometimes this place is a bit of an echo chamber.
I share this feeling, cco. I find the policing chills discussion.
In particular, after reading the "thread title appropriateness" thread and noting: 1) the eagerness of moderators to police language; 2) the unwillingness to have a discussion about how this policing might work out; I feel a little off-time from Babble is in order for me.
"I've been here is that the diversity of viewpoints and amount of rabble-rousing on babble has dropped off a cliff. We used to have champions for LGBT rights - Heph and Reality Bites. We used to have a lot more token Liberals to argue with. We used to have token Green Party members (I don't count, not really a partisan for that party anymore). We had a progressive conservative we tolerated, sometimes cheerfully..."
But surely it should be no mystery why there is not more diversity of viewpoints. I read babble every day, but I almost never post, mostly because my political opinions, no matter how politely expressed, would instantly get me banned. Diversity, outside a very narrow political bandwidth, is not welcomed here....
This simply isn't true. I can count the number of non-troll, non-spambot babblers who were banned since I started moderating on one hand and not one of them were banned for their political views. Not one. There is a lot of talk about "language policing" and "censorship" by a lot of people, but it is based on nothing but thin air.
I share cco's conception, however. babble can be nasty, and I know a lot of people in real life who won't post here because they don't care for the nastiness. But the culture of a board can't be controlled by two part-time people--it's controlled by its members. I try to start threads based on positive, non-partisan topics as much as possible, but they don't attract a lot of interest from existing or potential babblers. The fact is--as the NDP leadership race showed, a high water mark for new members and discussion--posters like conflict. It gets rocks off. But it doesn't make for a very nice place to hang out.
It would be great if people who like to hang out at En Masse also posted here. Many of them do. Many of them don't. As I said above, many of their reasons I respect. People like different things. That's life.
"This simply isn't true. I can count the number of non-troll, non-spambot babblers who were banned since I started moderating on one hand and not one of them were banned for their political views.'
Fair enough. I'm neither a troll, I hope, nor a bot. I voted for the Conservative party in the last election, and have absolutely no sympathy for the students striking in Quebec. I view them as middle class or middle-class wannabes aiming for good salaries at the expense of others. I'd support totally free education if degree-holding professionals made the same wages as retail clerks, which I doubt is one of the striking students' goals, though I suspect Marx would agree with me.
How's that for diversity of opinion?
Given the context I'm sure that's not going to get you a time out. As for those who might choose to react to your opinions, I'm not so sure.
"Given the context I'm sure that's not going to get you a time out. As for those who might choose to react to your opinions, I'm not so sure."
I anticipate a torrent of abuse....which is probably a greater damper on diversity than fear of being banned....