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Chen Guangcheng arrives in U.S.

Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005


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Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/19/world/asia/china-us-chen/index.html?hpt=hp_t3


Yes, I know that the West treats a lot of people like this, and the West needs to stop that shit too, but that's no excuse. 

I really hope that China will finally stop this heavy-handed treatment they impose on dissidents.  I'm really not sure what this guy could have been calling for that was THAT threatening.  Could somebody offer some sort of hint on why Beijing would hassle somebody like him?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

First off, I would want to know why Chen thinks visiting the U.S. would further the cause of human rights in China. Why not visit Sweden, Norway or Denmark instead? Why not show some solidarity with Greeks? Why snub Sainte Kitts and Nevis like this? Who, exactly, are his new friends state side? Does he not realize which country is the biggest jailer of its own citizens? Oops? 


Ken Burch
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Well, those are good questions, to which I don't have the answer.

I suppose that, in the short term, he had to go to the U.S., because his departure from China was negotiated by the States.  Not sure you can draw any conclusions about his feelings on issues not involving China, though.

 


Fidel
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Sorry, Ken. I don't think China is a champion of human rights, either. Certainly not. I suppose the most effective way of getting their attention in Beijing is to make friendly with the U.S. for sure.


voice of the damned
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I suppose that, in the short term, he had to go to the U.S., because his departure from China was negotiated by the States.  Not sure you can draw any conclusions about his feelings on issues not involving China, though.

Lots of people bearing respectably progressive credentials have gone to live in the US. David Miller studied at Harvard, for example, and Dave Barrett taught at the same univeristy after quitting provincial politics. I've heard of people even further left on the spectrum going to the US as well, usually with some academic tie-in, but can't think of the names off the top of my head 

I don't know anything about this Chen, he may very well be a bad guy. But I don't think the mere fact of his going to live in the US demonstrates that point.


Ghislaine
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Joined: Feb 15 2008

Here is some info on what Chen was doing in China that was bugging the authorities so much: Chen Guangcheng Reproductive Rights Activist

 

Quote:
He's a blind Chinese human rights lawyer and activist who has been occupying the news recently after making a dramatic late-night escape from his home, where he was being kept under house arrest against his will by the Chinese government.

The reason for his years-long imprisonment (made famous by Christian Bale's attempted visit just last year )? His activism against forced sterilizations, forced abortion, and China's "one child" policy.

 

...

That's why I'm disappointed that Guangcheng is not being hailed more widely as a feminist hero and champion of reproductive rights. While it's not clear what his position would be on a wide range of reproductive freedoms, it is certain that his crusade against forced abortion is a feminist cause. More apt than the whitewashed "human rights activist" label he's been given in the news is "reproductive rights activist" and perhaps even "feminist."

 


kropotkin1951
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By getting involved with the American government he is merely showing his naivety.  If you get sentenced to house arrest in Canada for protesting against government policy and then you escape I am sure there would be repercussions.  He does not like a government policy that is as bad as the eugenics movement was on this continent.  We had forced sterilizations in Canada that only ended in 1972.  Like China's one child policy it was was broadly supported by our political elite.  Some of the most progressive figures in Canadian history fell into the eugenics cesspool.

He is a brave man but no good can come to the Chinese people by way of the imperialist USA.  The US reeks from the gulags and prisons they operate around the world full of dissidents that they call terrorists.  But despite that they know no shame.  For a nation the wears its Xian religion on its sleeves it certainly has not learned the lesson from the bible.  I am still waiting for them to take up the cause of the innocent Palestinians held for years without even a Chinese "show" trial.

Quote:

Matthew 7:3-5

New International Version (NIV)

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.



6079_Smith_W
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From the intervews I have heard and read, the one-child policy, particularly as it is applied to girls goes a bit beyond what the situation was in Canada. Even so, it's not a question of who is worse. The point is, that is what he was trying to fight.

As for how he got himself out of there, I can't speak from experience, but I think if I had one shot at it, I would bank on the country that is likely to have the best chance of offering asylum, and be the most visible internationally. And in that, he chose correctly.

In short, I think his goal was to get the hell out, not look for political allies.

(edit)

After all, what kind of response has Canada had regarding Huseyincan Celil? And we have even sent accused people back to China.

 

 


kropotkin1951
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6079_Smith_W wrote:

After all, what kind of response has Canada had regarding Huseyincan Celil? And we have even sent accused people back to China.

Imagine having normal diplomatic relations with China.  God or America should forbid it.

You jumped the shark on that one 6079.  China is not a rogue nation nor does it have an evil government.  I guess you have been listening to the CBC so much you have internalized their analysis.  They bash China almost everyday in subtle and not so subtle ways.


6079_Smith_W
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Did I say that? Any of it?

My point was that Canada has enough respect for China's judicial system that it sent someone back trusting that he would not be executed. That is an argument in favour of normalcy and mutual respect. Even so, our government had no luck raising the case of a Canadian citizen arrested elsewhere and extradited to China. 

My point was regarding what the best choice might be for someone gambling with his life, and so concerned for the safety of his family that he was willing to leave the safety of an embassy.

You can put your ad hominem judgments back where you pulled the rest of your assumptions from.

 


Ghislaine
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

 China is not a rogue nation nor does it have an evil government.  I guess you have been listening to the CBC so much you have internalized their analysis.  They bash China almost everyday in subtle and not so subtle ways.

I don't use terms like evil, but the one-child policy is an abhorrent violation of human rights, most particularly the rights of women. 

Women's rights always seem to take a back seat to every other concern anyways. The country's population keeps getting a larger and larger majority of its citizens being male. How does this happen? One-child policy, sexism, female infanticide, etc. If he had arrived at the  Canadian embassy, we should've granted him asylum. 

Your argument sounds like Jason Kenney, in his quest to call some countries "safe" and no longer accept refugees from there. 

And I think you need to make a dinstinction, the CBC (in my experience) bashes the Chinese government..not Chinese citizens. 


Fidel
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Ghislaine wrote:

I don't use terms like evil, but the one-child policy is an abhorrent violation of human rights, most particularly the rights of women.

Keep in mind that China's one child policy was hatched in the west by a global "think" tank. Computer scientists have a saying: Garbage in, garbage out.  Malthusians are still at it today with spreading their genocidal propaganda based on junk science.

Ghislaine wrote:
Women's rights always seem to take a back seat to every other concern anyways. The country's population keeps getting a larger and larger majority of its citizens being male. How does this happen?

Compare China's fertility rate with that of democratic capitalist India's. If ever there was a country where women have zero basic rights, democratic capitalist India is it. Hundreds of millions of ordinary Indians seek justice in general their entire lives and never find it.

Neoliberalized India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and a number of desperately poor neoliberalizing African countries etcetera have many dissidents who are ignored and shunned by our governments and lapdog newz media. All the time.

What the west actually demands of Beijing has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. Not at all. Beijing could transform China into a neoliberal hellhole where life is cheap and basic human rights trampled daily, and there are real examples, and the west nor our lapdog newz media lackies nor our so-called governments would bat an eyelash of concern. 

And Speaking of blindness: Democratic and fully neoliberalized India has more blind people than any other country What about their basic rights to food and to see a doctor if necessary? Why is neoliberalized India such a conveyer belt of death and human misery unparalleled in the world? That CBC and western newz media propaganda will rot our minds if we aren't careful.


6079_Smith_W
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I specifically didn't bring up some of the more shocking things I have heard and read about this policy, and also did not say anything against China because, frankly, I know it would just turn into a game of "Who's Worst". And I say that especially because we are talking about China; I doubt we'd be going here if we were talking about the United States.

Fact is, all countries have bad policies; I presume all have some human rights abuses and certainly some inequality. And I expect most of them have dissidents who are unfairly persecuted. 

As far as I can see Ken Burch brought up all these caveats (and foresaw the sidetrack) in his opening post.

No, I guess we can't just talk about pointless it is to persecute dissidents.


Fidel
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6079_Smith_W wrote:
..., I know it would just turn into a game of "Who's Worst". And I say that especially because we are talking about China; I doubt we'd be going here if we were talking about the United States.

China was a fourth world hellhole in 1949. Our boy Chiang Kai-shek had just been routed by Maoists, and Stalin was busy raising an iron curtain against further western aggression against a Russian revolution which finally succeeed by 1917 after deaf ears fell on several unsuccessful demands for basic rights by Russian peasants. By the latter half of the 1970s, Maoists had achieved an infant mortality rate better than all of the capitalist thirdworld average. Enter the western world friendly Deng regime, and they were reacting to western think tankery a la Malthus combined with some shitty computer scientology.

 I would tend to expect more of the technologically developed western world and its affiliated "think" tanks. We have had many advantages here in the west since 1900 or so which Asian countries have not. The west is also renowned for producing prolific fuckups and bad political advice ourselves. We have to start thinking as a team, as in team blue planet or some such. Political as well as technological imperialism should be scrapped for all time. It should be a team effort now. The future of humanity as a viable species depends on it. We actually have no more time for the bullshit.


6079_Smith_W
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I don't think I'm denying that, Fidel. Nor am I denying that other countries have a horrible record.

But I don't think it cancels out the coerced and forced abortions, the murders, and the suicides, and the societal effects that have been the result of this policy. I also don't think it has any relevance to the good question Ken Burch asked at the top of the thread about the treatment of someone who questions the government.

And indeed, I am pleased to see that they let him and his family leave. I did not expect this outcome.

 


Fidel
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We are talking about China because China bashing is popular in the U.S. right now. If we want to know why our newz rags are talking about China, this is why. Our opinions are highly encouraged to resemble and fall in line with those popular ones promoted in the imperial master nation. Kind of takes the mystery out of things, doesn't it. Yes it's like a cheaply bad sci-fi: I have looked into the face of the force which put the idea in our heads. We are bred, and led, ourselves. - Fidel Connery

Meanwhile there are political dissidents, socialists, social activists, teachers, students, doctors, peasants and union leaders who are imprisoned, tortured, murdered and new names added to government lists to be hunted by right wing death squads in the name of freedom and democracy right here in our very own hemisphere. These basic human rights violations, as in here in this part of the world as opposed to that country way over there on the other side of the planet, continue to be sanctioned and condoned by leading nations of the OAS year after year, decade after decade.

And yet I have this compelling urge to talk about China, a country on the other side of the world. So let's discuss China the new evol empire since approximately "Chimerica's" economic divorce in the 2000's. And the divorce proceedings have been bitter, no question about it.


Bec.De.Corbin
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So Fidel are you saying what got posted about China here is not true or just should not be talked about because you don't like seeing people talk about it because it doesn't bash the countries or systems you want to bash?


kropotkin1951
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Ghislaine wrote:

Your argument sounds like Jason Kenney, in his quest to call some countries "safe" and no longer accept refugees from there. 

Actually my point was that China when it comes to human rights is no worse than we are or most countries are for that matter. I don't know how you got the above from what I wrote but whatever. 

This man has every right to run from his government but running into the arms of the imperial propaganda machine does nothing to help his righteous cause IMO.


kropotkin1951
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Ghislaine wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

 China is not a rogue nation nor does it have an evil government.  I guess you have been listening to the CBC so much you have internalized their analysis.  They bash China almost everyday in subtle and not so subtle ways.

And I think you need to make a dinstinction, the CBC (in my experience) bashes the Chinese government..not Chinese citizens. 

I meant the nation and I stated China. Why should I make a distinction. Our state media regularly trash talks the Chinese government and fawns over Hillary Clinton.


6079_Smith_W
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@ kropotkin 1951 #18

I don't know about that.

Why should one assume that an immigrant or political refugee must support the politics of his or her host country, or refrain from criticism or political action? Or that an immigrant's credibility is necessarily undermined based on which country s/he decides to go to.

You might want to read what Einstein had to say about McCarthyism, the arms race, and racism in the U.S. Just one example; there are plenty that disprove that claim. 

Chen picked the country which offered the best chance of getting out. That is all. If there is something requiring him to stop being a critical thinker at the border, I am not aware of it.

 

 

 


kropotkin1951
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6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ kropotkin 1951 #18

I don't know about that.

Kropotkin1951 at post 18 wrote:

Actually my point was that China when it comes to human rights is no worse than we are or most countries are for that matter. I don't know how you got the above from what I wrote but whatever. 

This man has every right to run from his government but running into the arms of the imperial propaganda machine does nothing to help his righteous cause IMO.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Why should one assume that an immigrant or political refugee must support the politics of his or her host country, or refrain from criticism or political action? Or that an immigrant's credibility is necessarily undermined based on which country s/he decides to go to.

I don't think anyone should assume any such thing. Why do you?


6079_Smith_W
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I'm responding to this statement:

"This man has every right to run from his government but running into the arms of the imperial propaganda machine does nothing to help his righteous cause IMO."

He didn't run into the arms of any propaganda machine, and he did nothing at all to compromise his work. He got himself and his family out of a bad situation.

(edit)

A number of reports pointed out that his seeking asylum was an embarrassment for the U.S., and that they may have discouraged him and pressured him to leave the embassy. So again, I am not sure how this plays into the imperial propaganda machine. Near as I can tell, the U.S. comes out of this looking weak, and willing to put politics ahead of their stated principles.





Fidel
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6079_Smith_W wrote:
 So again, I am not sure how this plays into the imperial propaganda machine. Near as I can tell, the U.S. comes out of this looking weak, and willing to put politics ahead of their stated principles.

Warshington continues to surround China militariliy while, and at the same time, U.S. corporations continue to profit by cheap labour in China's maquiladoras. But it's a tricky situation because while certain U.S. corporations profit in China, overall U.S. trade and accounts deficits continue mounting. And the banking/financial cabal want China to fully float the Yuan and lower restrictions on foreign ownership of China's banking and other key sectors of the economy normally associated with national security in the English speaking countries. And the vicious empire would also dearly love to bomb hell out of Iran and make a grab for the oil in that country and strangling off some large percentage of China's economy in the process. And so they continue aiding and abetting Al-Qa'eda and other mercenaries in and around Syria, Iran's only friendly the the region. It's more great game baloney dialed up.


Fidel
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Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
So Fidel are you saying what got posted about China here is not true or just should not be talked about because you don't like seeing people talk about it because it doesn't bash the countries or systems you want to bash?
 

I'm saying what Dave Lindorff says about it; that Chen Guangcheng should have fled to a Norwegian, New Zealand, French or Bolivian embassy. Iow's, Chen should have fled to a country where they actually take seriously their own rhetoric on human rights. 

Chen fled to the wrong political sanctuary if he thinks the USA gives a pinch about basic human rights. They do mention the U.S. in the main article, do they not? Or is it your opinion that we should avoid discussing that particular detail of the story?


Ghislaine
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

 

Actually my point was that China when it comes to human rights is no worse than we are or most countries are for that matter. I don't know how you got the above from what I wrote but whatever. 

 

That is simply not true. As a woman I feel we still have a LONG way to go in Canada, but I can at least recognize, celebrate and be thankful for the rights I do have. Rights that Chinese women DO NOT HAVE. How can you claim Canada is no worse than China? 

Especially in the realm of women's rights? 

And Fidel - the subject of the thread is China. If you want to start a thread about India - start one? Ditto for all the other countries you listed off. 


Fidel
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Ghislaine wrote:
And Fidel - the subject of the thread is China. If you want to start a thread about India - start one? Ditto for all the other countries you listed off. 

Agreed. Apparently Chen has more value to the U.S. rhetoric on human rights if Chen actually returns to China to resume being a thorn in their side. It's possible that neither country actually wants him at this point. This is a minor incovenience for Hillary and the warmongers busy lobbying Beijing to approve vicious sanctions waged against China's allies North Korea and Iran. 


kropotkin1951
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Ghislaine wrote:

How can you claim Canada is no worse than China?


Sven
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Ghislaine wrote:

That is simply not true. As a woman I feel we still have a LONG way to go in Canada, but I can at least recognize, celebrate and be thankful for the rights I do have. Rights that Chinese women DO NOT HAVE. How can you claim Canada is no worse than China? 

Especially in the realm of women's rights? 

Thank you for pointing that out, Ghislaine.


Fidel
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The UN says Canada violates women's and children's rights all of the time. 

I think there are enough violations of rights and gross violations of basic human rights right here in this hemisphere that we have no need to look down our noses at China or any other country on the other side of the world.

We have nothing to teach or offer China with respect to human rights or democracy. The people still have a job to do right here at home as well as "the backyard" in Latin America. 

That Chen Guangcheng chose to flee to a country that it is the largest jailer nation in the world and most prolific torturer and most militarily aggressive nation is a terrible irony. His blindness is exceeded only by his political naivety.


Ghislaine
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ghislaine wrote:

How can you claim Canada is no worse than China?

The new law (which I believe will be struck down by the courts), tear gas, arrests, mask law, etc. is all unacceptable. 

But, it does not compare to Tianammen Square and having no legal system/Charter for recourse. 


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