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Chen Guangcheng arrives in U.S.

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Ghislaine
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Joined: Feb 15 2008

...plus I cannot imagine Charest's Liberals getting re-elected. Good lucking waiting for the next election date in China. 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Elections for the amusement of rich people, yes-yes. Perhaps his hosts will show Chen how election rigging"colour revolutions" , and Arab Springs are managed, too. Good one. And let's not forget the futility of protesting U.S. Military occupations in South Korea when more than 2000 were massacred in 1980. Yes, it's highly possible that Chen was given some bad advice somewhere along the line. 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

That Chen Guangcheng chose to flee to a country that it is the largest jailer nation in the world and most prolific torturer and most militarily aggressive nation is a terrible irony. His blindness is exceeded only by his political naivety.

I can appreciate that you don't like what he did, nor that we are talking about it.

But frankly, I think the things you see as most important aren't relevant at all.

Think for a minute of how desparate he and those who helped him must have been to attempt his escape - especially considering his very real physical disability which you are using as a convenient metaphor.

Think of  how much more desparate he must have been to leave the safety of the embassy because of threats to his family. Personally, I think seeing anything in this other than his need to escape is missing the point.

Bottom line - He achieved his goal, and China let him go. I fail to see what is naive about that.

 

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Do you think the next government of Quebec is going to disband the riot police? I don't live in China but I know many people who go back and forth to China regularly.  Repression there is like in most totalitarian states. It is subtle. If you ignore politics you have nothing to fear from their state. That is the very same as in Canada. 

If you are an anarchist wanting to protest in Canada you will be treated every bit as bad as a Chinese dissident wanting to protest the very foundations of their government. We have just as draconian laws in Canada that allow for incarceration without due process or the right to confront the accusations made against you. We have people in our jails under those anti-terrorist laws and they have started arresting some of the Montreal protestors under that legislation.

The difference I see between Canada and China is that China is progressing towards greater rights and freedoms and Canada is sinking into a being a totalitarian state.  Whether we have intersected yet and are worse than they are is not clear.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Bottom line - He achieved his goal, and China let him go. I fail to see what is naive about that.
 

So why would he and his wife want to go back to China? What exactly is Chen's goal in your opinion?

Why would Chen flee one hard line dictatorship for a military one in the U.S.? is Chen aware that the USA is home to the largest gulag population in the world? Why did Chen snub a list of countries where their militaries don't command more than half of federal expenditures, or any other country in the world where black people are not over-represented in prison populations at six times the rate in apartheid South Africa? Does Chen have any idea how Uncle Sam pays lip service to human rights while in gross violation of basic rights on a daily basis both at home and abroad?


Bec.De.Corbin
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Joined: Mar 17 2010

 

Maybe he doesn't see the US as you do Fidel... Maybe the things you think are important in your dislike of the USA aren't as important to him. Maybe the guy has distant family here in the USA,  who knows.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
Maybe he doesn't see the US as you do Fidel...

Agreed. He most probably does not see what I have seen while living and working in the U.S.A. and observing for extended periods here in the northern colony.

Bec.de.Corbin wrote:
Maybe the guy has distant family here in the USA,  who knows.

I have family living in the USA. Some are buried there. I am related to people who fought in the civil war. I have rather close relatives who ran a school in Los Angeles last century. Does that mean I should shut up and protest not? Love it or leave it, Bec?

I thought this was a thread for protesters and comments supportive of human rights. Babble is usually alive with human rights. Why am I being discouraged from discussing basic human rights? I don't understand.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Fidel wrote:

So why would he and his wife want to go back to China? What exactly is Chen's goal in your opinion?

You can read that interesting article as well as I can. I'm not that surprised.

It doesn't change the fact that he just recently escaped custody, and created an international incident in order to seek asylum and get himself out of China.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Fidel wrote:

So why would he and his wife want to go back to China? What exactly is Chen's goal in your opinion?

You can read that interesting article as well as I can. I'm not that surprised.

It doesn't change the fact that he just recently escaped custody, and created an international incident in order to seek asylum and get himself out of China.

Well at least he has a U.S. travel visa now and similar to the ones they issue to "Al-Qa'eda" terrorists fliping in and out of the U.S. since the start of the CIA's proxy war in Afghanistan over 30 years ago and ongoing today.

What if they don't welcome him and his wife back into China as Chen apparently believes they will? What then? Will he die of poverty and neglect in the U.S. like so many other not-so famous Americans and emigres to America? Perhaps they can slide him into China in the back of a Toyota carrying U.S.-Qa'eda trained Uighur mercenaries. (Canadian Eric Margolis @ 7:40 into the podcast)


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

I have to hand it to you, Fidel...you're nothing if not tenacious.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Just remember we're not supposed to mention human rights issues in Chen's sponsor country, Sven. This is where Chen and his wife live happily ever after in the land of freedom and democracy, and the land of liberty where habeas corpus rights have been removed to prevent those from challenging their government accusers and one of the same reasons you guys fought a revolution against crazy George's oppressive rule from the throne in England. Shh!


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

I'm not sure what you are implying, Fidel. 

That we should blame refugees who come here instead of some better country? 

That coming here means they support our government policy, and the understanding is that they will shut up and not criticize things? 

As for the first question, I expect some people who are in that position don't have the luxury of being picky if they want to live.

And as for the second, do you really think there aren't any immigrants to this country who speak out against injustice here? 

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I'm not sure what you are implying, Fidel. 

That we should blame refugees who come here instead of some better country?

No I'm not a bigoted xenophobe as you've so carelessly implied for lack of anything intelligent to say. Go fuck yerself.

I'm saying that the country offering sanctuary to Chen is a full partner with Beijing in oppressing Chinese workers and citizens. 

No other rich country in the world has a record for basic human rights abuses that comes close to that of Chen's host country, the USA.

They've broken into the homes of known Occupy Wall St protesters to question them.

Chen's human rights champion nation has just thrown out a court case brought by Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen who was tortured by the American inquisition, and the explanation is that his torturers enjoy complete immunity from prosecution.  

23 year-old David Chong was arrested and incarcerated without charges and nearly died of thirst and almost attempted suicide as a result.

The U.S. military dictatorship and host nation has just declared global assassinations by aerial drones both "legal" and "ethical."

The human rights defender nation is second to none when it comes to rates of incarceration of its own citizens. We could go on and onlisting the appalling gross human rights violations in Chen's host country.

---

The real question is not whether Cheng's rights were violated in China so much as what is the real motive of the USA's cosmetic government in politicizing Chen Guangcheng's case and making it an international issue? Are you not smelling a faint odour of hypocrisy, Smith? 

If Chen had fled to any other country, we would most definitely want to review that country's record on human rights the same. It is you who are avoiding and deflecting the issue of human rights abuses not me nor anyone else in this thread.

The second question is: Why are you trying to change the subject from that of Chen and human rights to focusing on personal comments directed at me? The subject is human rights and all that is mentioned in the news article of interest and, coincidentally, the topic of discussion. That includes America in case you were completely oblivious of the fact. It was the 67th Secretary of State wife of a war criminal and "I'll sell my vote on national medicare to the health insurance lobby for a few hundred thousand and screw Americans bc I'm a Liberal Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton corrupt as they come" who offered sanctuary to Chen not me nor I nor even moi. It was actually I, "Fidel" the babbler from Puerto Ontario, who had absolutely nothing to do with this human rights charade and inspiration for a babble thread topic of discussion.

Pay attention.

And I will just ignore any further attempts by you to smear me and put words in my mouth like you tried to unsuccessfully in the other thread on Cromwell as moderators deliberately looked the other way while telling me what I could do with my flagged complaint. And what's this in the mail addressed to me from Rabble? Ah yes...


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

Okay Fidel. This is me "doing my job fer fuxakes".  Don't tell another babbler to go fuck themselves.  And for the record, being rude and belligerent to the mods ain't earning you any points either.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I agree with Fidel. Entirely.

Over 2,000 students and allies have been arrested and most charged with purely political offences in the past three months. Hundreds are rounded up daily (like Sunday), with little or no outcry from any political opposition parties in this "democracy".

Let's say, oh, the 150,000 students still on strike appeared at the U.S. border looking for "asylum".

Would I sympathize with their quest? Um, no.

Would the U.S. grant them asylum? Um, no.

Is China a nice social democratic humanitarian type of country? Um, no.

Is Chen a poster child for the most aggressive and dangerous imperialism in the world today? Um, yes.

Do I sympathize with his "escape to freedom"? No, his brand of "human rights" was invented in recent decades to give imperialism a talking point against nations seeking to escape their grasp.

Fidel, I'm with you on this one 100%.


Ghislaine
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Joined: Feb 15 2008

Unionist wrote:

Do I sympathize with his "escape to freedom"? No, his brand of "human rights" was invented in recent decades to give imperialism a talking point against nations seeking to escape their grasp.

What are you talking about here? What do you mean by "his brand of human rights" being invented. The violations of women's rights in China are well-documented by various organizations. His efforts in this regard are well-known.

Let's all lecture an oppressed person and call him a poster-child for imperialism! That is progressive! I bet he is not really trying to highlight abuses against women and girls or escape oppression with his family...he is really trying to promote American Imperialism. You should tell Hilary Clinton's State Dept. about your theory, as they seemed extremely annoyed by the timing of his antics and the uncomfortable truths he tries to highlight. They tried to "throw him under the bus", so to speak.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Well what are you saying then, Fidel? 

In the first place, I don't see how Chen is compelled in any way to stop doing political work, and secondly I don't see how this situation has made the U.S. look good in any way.

Pretty much every report I read suggested that they were embarrassed by him, and some suggested that they all but forced him out of their embassy. Ultimately they looked weak because this situation shows clearly they aren't in a position to dictate terms to China any more.

As for China, they let him go, which was a pleasant surprise. 

So I see that you, and Unionist, and others, are making some arguments. But how does it relate to Chen's persecution and escape? No way that I can see, unless there is some sort of secret contract he signed with the U.S. government to go on a goodwill tour for them that I am not aware of... or maybe the evil Americans hatched this plot and recruited him 10 years ago, then let him sit in jail for years waiting for the perfect time to launch this PR stunt and embarrass the Chinese. 

(edit)

And yes, I'll ask the more general question again. Why the assumption that refugees and immigrants must bear the political legacy of the countries they come to and not be politically active,  and what is it based on? 

As well, how is it that we know better than they do, and can criticize them for not acting the way we think they should? I don't know about you, but I have never spent any real time behind bars because of my principles, so I don't think I have much call to tell him he didn't do it right.

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Ghislaine you are talking past everyone in this thread.  No one denies that China fails to live up to the ideals expressed in its constitution.  The point I have been trying to make has nothing to do with whether or not he has valid issues because clearly he does.  The point is his treatment as a dissident in China is not much different than he would get in Canada or the US as a person seeking to go outside legal and constitutional channels to effect change.  Their government is totalitarian but not remarkably so in this new millennium.  To me the sad part is that while places like China are actually improving their human rights records places like Canada are marching backwards to tyranny.


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ghislaine you are talking past everyone in this thread.  No one denies that China fails to live up to the ideals expressed in its constitution.  The point I have been trying to make has nothing to do with whether or not he has valid issues because clearly he does.  The point is his treatment as a dissident in China is not much different than he would get in Canada or the US as a person seeking to go outside legal and constitutional channels to effect change.  Their government is totalitarian but not remarkably so in this new millennium.  To me the sad part is that while places like China are actually improving their human rights records places like Canada are marching backwards to tyranny.

You are totally missing the point Ghislane is making.  I'll leave it up to her to explain, as I don't want to appropriate her voice.  


Ghislaine
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Joined: Feb 15 2008

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ghislaine you are talking past everyone in this thread.  No one denies that China fails to live up to the ideals expressed in its constitution.  The point I have been trying to make has nothing to do with whether or not he has valid issues because clearly he does.  The point is his treatment as a dissident in China is not much different than he would get in Canada or the US as a person seeking to go outside legal and constitutional channels to effect change.  Their government is totalitarian but not remarkably so in this new millennium.  To me the sad part is that while places like China are actually improving their human rights records places like Canada are marching backwards to tyranny.

Who am I talking past? I am quoting from and replying to specific points made by others.

And, yes, you are mistaken if you think his treatment as a dissident in China is not much different than he would get in Canada or the US. Canada and the US have much greater human rights for their citizens than China. This is undeniable. Here is a description of some of what  Chen, his family and those trying to see him under house arreast have endured :

 

Quote:

 

As a result of his courageous work investigating reports of forced abortions and sterilisations by local authorities in Linyi, China, Chen Guangcheng, a blind, self-taught lawyer and human-rights activist, has endured a relentless campaign of harassment, persecution and physical abuse for the past six years.

Sentenced to four years and three months in prison on spurious charges of "damaging property and disturbing traffic", the 40-year-old served his sentence in full and should have been freed in September 2010. But upon his release he and his family were immediately placed under house arrest.

The authorities have gone to extreme lengths to cut Chen Guangcheng's family off from the world. Their computer has been confiscated and their internet connection and phone line blocked. Security personnel have flooded Dongshigu village, Shandong province, which is where they live, and surveillance cameras are keeping watch on their home. Neither Chen nor his wife Yuan Weijing have been allowed to leave the house in the past 12 months, not even to shop for groceries or visit the doctor. Their six-year-old daughter has only recently been allowed to attend school.

 

(Article written months prior to Chen becoming an Imperialist tool..so I am not sure if these still count as "human rights invented in recent decades to give imperialism a talking point against nations seeking to escape their grasp")

 

Here is a 2005 article featuring an interview with Chen and which outlines the violations of women's rights in China. No forced sterilizations have been done in Canada since the early 70s and I don't know of any forced abortions.

So, your claim that Canada is no better is completely false.

 

Quote:

 

The men with the poison-filled syringe arrived two days before Li Juan's due date. They pinned her down on a bed in a local clinic, she says, and drove the needle into her abdomen until it entered the 9-month-old fetus. "At first, I could feel my child kicking a lot," says the 23-year-old. "Then, after a while, I couldn't feel her moving anymore." Ten hours later, Li delivered the girl she had intended to name Shuang (Bright). The baby was dead. To be absolutely sure, says Li, the officials--from the Linyi region, where she lives, in China's eastern Shandong province--dunked the infant's body for several minutes in a bucket of water beside the bed. All she could think about on that day last spring, recalls Li, was how she would hire a gang of thugs to take revenge on the people who killed her baby because the birth, they said, would have violated China's family-planning scheme.



Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Ghislaine wrote:

Quote:

The men with the poison-filled syringe arrived two days before Li Juan's due date. They pinned her down on a bed in a local clinic, she says, and drove the needle into her abdomen until it entered the 9-month-old fetus. "At first, I could feel my child kicking a lot," says the 23-year-old. "Then, after a while, I couldn't feel her moving anymore." Ten hours later, Li delivered the girl she had intended to name Shuang (Bright). The baby was dead. To be absolutely sure, says Li, the officials--from the Linyi region, where she lives, in China's eastern Shandong province--dunked the infant's body for several minutes in a bucket of water beside the bed. All she could think about on that day last spring, recalls Li, was how she would hire a gang of thugs to take revenge on the people who killed her baby because the birth, they said, would have violated China's family-planning scheme.

That description is other-worldly.  Wow.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

To reiterate Canada is a totalitarian state as bad or almost as bad as China.  Ghislaine is talking about the issue of dissent I am talking about the response to the dissent. I have never said the one child policy was good or enforced fairly or justly.  You keep saying their apples are rotten and I keep saying I think their oranges are at least as good as ours.

I found the description right up there with a display at a anti-abortion table.  The human rights violation are not worse because they involve fetuses.

Quote:

Since receiving a Canadian "security certificate" in 2000, Mohammed Mahjoub has spent seven years in prison, and the rest under a strict regime of house arrest. 
 
According to The Canadian Press, the information leading to his detention was "derived from torture."  The Canadian Bar Association claims that the law under which Mahjoub is detained is unconstitutional.

Canada's spy agency, CSIS, admits that it has no fresh information, but argues that Mahjoub is still a "potential" terrorist.  The CSIS refuses to reveal all their evidence against Mahjoub.  'Agent No.4,' who cannot be named, testified in court that Mahjoub has a "certain deeply held belief system." 

Apparently, this "belief system" warrants a decade of imprisonment, surveillance, and harassment.  Agents, charged with "eyes-on" surveillance techniques, once followed Mahjoub into a hospital room, where his wife was suffering a miscarriage.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-mohammed-mahjoub/

Quote:

Mohammad Mahjoub has spent the last 12 years in prison including solitary confinement, or severe house arrest based on secret evidence. Mr. Mahjoub is an agriculturalist and a torture-survivor from Egypt. This makes his the longest case of arbitrary detention in Canadian history.
He spoke yesterday in Montreal about his shocking situation.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottmontreal/7207094430/

 


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Perhaps the comparison between China and the USA that is being made is the wrong comparison. When it comes to imperialistic conduct, I think most would agree that China holds no candle to the USA. The USA has a very aggressive foreign policy. On the other hand, I think that most fair observers would agree that on internal human and civil rights, China is far behind the USA. 

In other words, a comparison between the two countries depends on what aspect of the two countries is being compared. 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Plus, it begs the question of what the point is. Is our goal to figure out who the worst oppressor is, just to make sure that we aren't talking about anything other than that?  If so, somebody better get over to that starship enterprise thread and set them straight.

Me, I'm still trying to figure out what this little exercise has to do with the topic of this thread.

On-topic though, here's an interview with journalist Xie Xinran that aired on CBC The Current last year:

http://castroller.com/Podcasts/TheCurrent/2230207

 

 


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