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Syndicate
I think some of the talk surrounds devaluing the Greek Euro. There is no such thing as a Greek Euro, and so they believe slashing Greek wages and pensions will bring Greece in-line with the most efficient and productive economies, like Germany. And we know how devaluing the currency worked for Germany paying reparations in the 1920s and 30s.
They need someone other than a bunch of corrupt stooges in the pockets of banksters to come up with a real plan. Debts which can not be repaid, won't be. The very neoliberal EU and ECB are one big con job on Europeans and wannabe Euros. The neoliberal financial regime in Europe is even more dictatorial than anything they've tried here in the western hemisphere. And our own corrupts in Warshington and Ottawa are watching to see how it all turns out over there. We could be next if Euro oligarchs can pull it off. In that case we could say goodbye to any notion of democracy in the northern colony and U.S.
And once again, abnormal, even if the Greek government had, in fact, gone on a reckless spending spree, it's really inappropriate for you to act as if the PEOPLE of Greece are responsible for that spree and should have to be punished for it. It's not as if every pensioner and social service recepient in the Hellenic Republic "has it coming", you know.
I mean...if Canada were in the same situation, caused solely(as the Greek situation was caused solely)by the actions of the Canadian government would you say that every Canadian, and especially every Canadian receiving any form of social assitance, should be collectively punished for what the politician( many of them didn't even vote for) happened to have done?
What the hell did the Greeks ever do to you, buddy?
You and I pretty much entirely agree KenS. I was arguing against Fidel and the KKE's idea of straight up ditching the Euro.
SYRIZA's "mad bomber" approach probably will work. In scaring the crap out of Merkel and friends (and in some ways, me) they have way more negotiating power than the governing coalition ever will; just the threat of SYRIZA getting elected has moved the Eurozone shift towards the idea of growing out of debt.
I'm under the impression that Greece was spending a comparable amount of GDP on social services compared to other Euro countries. And that the problem was not the spending, but the tax collection.
abnormal, do you dispute this?
i have the feeling that the good guys are going to win this one:
Following is a table of recent Greek poll results
Agency Date** ND SYRIZA PASOK I.G. KKE D.L. G.D.
P. Issue May 19 24 28 15 8 5 7 4.5
*Alco May 19 23.1 21.4 13.5 7.3 5.2 6.0 3.8
*MRB May 19 24.4 23.8 14.5 8.5 5.9 6.9 5.8
*Metron May 19 23.8 25.1 17.4 7.8 5.8 6.3 4.8
*MARC May 17 26.1 23.7 14.9 8.1 5.8 6.3 4.8
*Pulse May 17 21.5 24.5 15.5 8.0 6.0 6.0 6.0
VPRC May 16 14.5 20.3 10.9 3.7 4.4 6.1 2.2
Kapa May 13 18.1 20.5 12.2 8.4 6.5 5.0 5.8
*Metron May 12 21.7 25.5 14.6 10.5 5.3 5.4 4.7
Marc May 10 20.3 27.7 12.6 10.2 7.0 4.9 5.7
Election May 6 18.9 16.8 13.2 10.6 8.5 6.1 7.0
Banksters and financial oligarchs are screwing with people's minds today similar to the way parasites in nature take over the brain of the host and convince it that it is a natural part of the body requiring regular nourishing. The parasite works like the mafia and convinces the host that there is no other option but to live with a parasitic appendage. There is an alternative, however. The last 300 years of pre-neoclassico political economy strove to get rid of landlords, banksters and free lunch oligarchies. This is not the class war spoken of 100 years ago - it is a financial one.
There are alternatives. Many.
But if other people won't give them free money anymore how are they going to pay for anything? Increase taxes (in a culture where tax evasion is regarded as the norm)? Cut expenditures (otherwise known as austerity)? What are their options?
I think it best for Greece to exit now. although they might choose not to. Fascists here in the west are working hard to collapse the whole western monetary system at some point. Wall Street fascists continue to lobby Warshington for a return to full deregulation of the financial sector, or in other words, more of the same crookery, thieving and gambing with federally insured deposits. It's not just Greece that wants to put off the inevitable, the crooksters and banksters also don't want Greece and other too big to fail countries to burst the western world financial bubble. And it's a big one. What blows up must implode at some point. Financial capitalism is destined to blow another gasket big time just a matter of when. Greeks shouldn't blame themselves for this global pyramid scheme gone awry.
Greek Leftist Leader Alexis Tsipras: 'It's a war between People and Capitalism'
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31400.htm
"I don't believe in heroes or saviours,' says Alexis Tsipras, ' but I do believe in fighting for rights...no one has the right to reduce a proud people to such a state of wretchedness and indignity..
It was chosen as the experiment for the enforcement of neo-liberal shock policies and Greek people were the guinea pigs. If the experiment continues, it will be considered successful and the policies will be applied in other countries. It will not just be a victory for Greece but for all of Europe..."
Greek hospitals resort to an extreme measure to get patients to pay medical bills, telling mothers their new baby will be kept by the hospital until there is payment
Like hundreds of thousands of people in Greece, Anna (not her real name) is not eligible for free non-emergency healthcare. The Greek state only provides that for people who are employed and making regular national insurance contributions, or, when people are unemployed, if they are fully up to date with tax payments.
With unemployment at over 21% and new "solidarity" taxes appearing each month, many people have been left without any kind of medical coverage, says the director of the charity Medicins Du Monde in Greece, Nikitas Kanakis.
Video: Black Metal Bassist Elected to Greek Parliament
Thats him on the left... Now if he only wears the makeup and costume while in parliament...
Looks like a reaction to the anarco-capitalists that have been running everything thus far. For every action....as the saying goes.
The Pseudo-Left Unmasked in Greece - by Alex Lantier
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/pers-m24.shtml
"It has taken only a few days since the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) became the front-runner in Greece's elections for the bankruptcy of its politics to become clear.."
SYRIZA Leader Tsipras in Berlin - by Dreier Christoph
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/may2012/tsip-m24.shtml
"Tsipras spoke as a defender of capitalist order and its international institutions. 'We are proposing a way to save the euro,' he said. 'Our possible election victory offers the prospect of stabilizing Europe, not causing more instability as feared."
Crisis-Led Suicide Epidemic: Greek Mother and Son Jump to Death
http://www.rt.com/news/greece-double-suicide-crisis-136/
"A 60 year old Greek musician and his 91 year old mother jumped to their deaths from their 5th floor apartments, driven to despair by financial woes. This double-death is the latest in a rising epidemic of crisis-induced suicides in Greece.."
That's not out of the question actually...he was elected as a deputy for Golden Dawn, the neo-Nazi group-which reinforces the theory some of us have had for awhile that there were connections between fascism and at least some forms of heavy metal-starting with the Teutonic schtick a lot of those groups go in for.
(no offense intended to any anti-fascist metalheads...to them I say "Party on, dude!".)
It figures. I didn't know about all that. I just ran into the article on a heavy metal page, it didn't really cover his politics.
I listened to some of the bands recordings... they pretty much suck.
That picture is the face of a racist nazi. Here is a good essay for you Bec that sets out the history. Neo-nazi's use this music as a recruiting tool and unfortunately a new generation of Brown Shirts is beginning to arise as the economy crumples.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/racist...
It's probably time to start challenging/dismantling these groups before they get too big for their britches. We don't need more repeats of some of our terrible recent past.
Thanasis Pafilis on the Second Mnemonium (and vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeaPGGcgtU
"On 12/2/2012/the day the second mnemonium came to Parliament, Thanasis Pafilis of KKE, the Communist Party of Greece, gave a speech.."
What a shame we have no one in the House of Commons who comes even close
If Greece gets booted from the euro, then I suspect that there will be a pitched battle between the extreme left and the extreme right -- and, either way, life will suck. There'll be no money to fund their chronic deficits...so government spending will be forced to align with tax receipts, which will be plummeting. If I were in Greece and had any money in the bank, I'd be pulling it out and sending it to Switzerland.
"life will suck"...apparently it already does
Greek Suicide Epidemic Continues
http://www.rt.com/news/greece-pensioner-suicide-crisis-619/
"A 61-year old Greek pensioner has hung himself from a tree in a public park after succumbing to the pressure of crushing debt A note in his pocket indicates he is merely the latest in a rash of economic crisis-induced suicides.."
Point well taken, NDPP. Maybe I should have said "...life will suck even worse than it does today -- far worse..."
That pensioner who tragically hanged himself would likely have seen the value of his pension permanently cut in half if/when Greece exits the euro.
The suicide's note referred to Margaret Thatcher, and that made me think of one of her observations about socialism ("The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of other people's money"). Well, Greece has finally "run out of other people's money"...and it's not pretty.
i don't think ya took it t'll
do you think white people are ever going to run out of our First Nations money they're using here in NA?
And how, exactly, is that even remotely relevant to this thread topic about Greece?
Thx Quizzical I thought your question was very appropriate.
Frelling Hell Sven WTF is with your contribution to this thread, socialism is spending other peoples money? I can't believe the shit you spew. It seems to me to be provocative baiting and since you do it often it feels to me like trolling as well.
WTF does that oppressive quote from the Iron Lady have to do with a progressive discussion about Greece. Maybe you have some gems from her buddy Pinochet you would like to throw into the discussion. Why you think that blaming the Greek people for the theft of the 0.1% has any relevance to a discussion under the terms of babble.
ya seem to think you're superior to the Greek people. or have superior beliefs. yet here ya are in NA living off avails that belong to First Nations. First Nations at the very least. a good argument could be made for including blacks and other Indigenous to NA and Central America. 'cause after all NA would look like a far different place today if that- not so distant past- gross exploitation and murder hadn't taken place. you're living in a glass house and throwing stones at other people. smug without a leg to stand on.
then let's delve into the reality of the Greeks being driven into massive debt. a lot of debt that happened through a forced gala-aka Olympics- for the corporations and 1%ers by their lying politcians. not going to even waste more time by speaking to the other actions of their lying politicians. i went back and read the threads on this. you can too. not that ya will it's too much truth for ya.
Retiring at age 50 is "theft of the 0.1%"? That kind of a system is, as the Greeks are finding out, simply unsustainable.
As tempting as it is, we need to avoid phrases like "fuck you". I'm all for swearing, so long as it isn't used to insult and abuse someone. Lots of words that can do a better job.
The truth is, with the degree of global economic integration we now have, EVERY economy on the planet is based on "spending other people's money", and every bazillionaire has a fortune made up OF other people's money. Nobody's wealthy, anywhere, is based solely or even primarily on her or his own efforts
We ALL owe everything, at least in part, to other people. It's impossible not to. The day of the "self-made man/woman" is gone forever. It was gone before Thomas Jefferson even started fantasizing about his "yeoman farmers" in the 18th Century(a fantasy he engaged in while living exclusively off of the sweat of his slaves).
Greece would never have had a financial problem at all if only the wealthy had paid their taxes(and if the ND government hadn't massively overspent on the Athens Olympics). It really is that simple. The pensions had nothing to do with it. The size of the Greek public workforce had nothing to do with it.
Also, it's not nearly as bad for a Greek worker to retire at age 50(actually, in Greece, it was usually more like 55 or a little older)and some ultrabazillaire bubble beneficiary deciding to spend the rest of his life playing tennis at age 45 or so(having generally made his or her money solely off of the bundling of predatory home loans and unjustified mass layoffs of long-term employees, most of which seemed to happen around Christmas, for some twisted reason).