Flounce thread II

So how do we create an environment that people do not think they need to leave?

So what question should we be asking? or should we be asking no questions around this topic?

I just don't think there is an absolute answer to the question because all sorts of people have left, and the only common denominator is that they all felt it was not worth it to be here anymore. 

At this moment I don't really feel in the mood to be making plans for a fresh start, though.

(edit)

@ Pogo

In some cases I'd agree with you. Not now though.

I think people have invested a lot here and if they want to stay but feel they cannot stand what is happening it is fair that they come to a thread like this and say something -- perhaps hoping in their leaving the place can be made better. I think it is a sad statement that anyone would promote the idea that people who have been here a long time and feel they cannot handle it should shut the fuck up and leave quietly. That idea is as much a reflection of what is wrong with this place as anything else.

In some ways I think that there has been an expectation created that the place can and should manage individual obnoxious posts and situations. Perhaps that expectation is both impossible and unfair. It comes by the standard set by Mods getting in to the minor things leaving the impression they and the site are responsible for every dispute here. Ironically I think a more hands-off approach might be better-- it would encourage people to find their own boundaries; others to give them honest feedback without some cop nearby to settle the matter (which then may silence the wrong people); and perhaps most of all allow people to understand that this is a community-- that has group responsibility and also the need to accept some of the wider social problems that exist out there without being seen to approve of them. By letting the small stuff go at least publicly, then some more attention can go to what matters. Perhaps some of the threats and warnings we have seen should be not public but by PM. If you allow the community more latitude to express itself you take more pressure off the mods and more responsibility for things. On the other hand people need to show their support for some of the basic principles here rather than say nothing. Saying nothing when someone is treated unfairly is more likely to cause them to feel that there is no point staying than if others speak up.

Most of all people need to listen to each other and while I like the person I am speaking of being here, I have been frustrated by the insistence on a line of communication that has been stated as hurtful. I find it bizarre that we could be debating someone's feelings when there are so many other ways to make a point.

I'll return to my comment to emphasize it-- to suggest a person who has invested so much here is plugging the toilet on the way out -- because they are trying to complain about something that is hurting people is horrible. If that feeling were widely accepted here I think there would be no point any of us being here.

I did not know Writer was a founding member-- did know that writer was important to the place. I hope she will consider staying and there will be some group responsibility to help make the place not only welcoming but one where people are not left to defending themselves alone or being told to STFU.

There is a huge imbalance here in membership -- many of those who have left have been women and people of colour. This is a crisis for a place that wants to be a progressive, inclusive forum. If that is not reversed this place won't be worth anything. I'm going to suggest that part of the problem is not only a recognition of what is wrong but the style of approach in fixing it and the atmosphere. Perhaps some of those who have left and some who are still here can be heard on that. What I'm saying is if this is the type of place only a white male can be comfortable with and survive here then that is all that will remain. Maybe this is about approaching someone like Maysie, again, who has some pretty good instincts to make some suggestions on how to change the culture here. But yes there is something wrong that ought not to be ignored.The first step is to stop pretending it is all ok.

I'll add one more thing: a place like this survives by having a critical mass of people both in numbers and diversity. If you fall below that people will leave enmasse and there will be nothing left, We are not far enough above that threshold of critical mass for comfort. At moments I think we are below.

It takes a lot of work and time to participate here. that needs to be respected-- if it becomes not worth it people will do something else with that effort and time and there are other things they can do.