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How the Liberals might save Canada, along with their own sorry butts
June 5, 2012 - 11:39pm
just an idea
This idea, for the Liberals to save Canada along with their own sorry butts, is simple, and hopefully has potential.
The Liberals need to aggressively push for a coalition with "Red Tories," the former "progressive" element of the old PC's. Crucially, they need to find a few MPs on the government side to join this coalition, to eliminate the current Conservative majority. That would require convincing at least 11 disgruntled Red Tories currently sitting in the house to leave the government benches, for the good of Canada. Are there enough Red Tories in the House, willing to take such a courageous move? Or are they all obediently waiting in line to massage Harper's [whatevers].
Public clamor against this destructive dictatorship is needed to encourage Red Tories to "cross the floor." They would join something like a "Liberal-Progressive" centrist coalition, which I would not see as much of a threat to the NDP. The NDP can only move so far toward the centre without falling off the foundation of its origins. And there are many lost centrists out there who would not vote NDP anyways, as evidenced by several fledgling attempts to establish centrist parties to occupy the no-man's land that is appearing in federal politics.
But the Liberals have to be aggressive and relentless about this, so that even if they don't succeed in poaching enough government MPs to eliminate the majority, then at least they could cause internal rifts among the Conservatives. A public outcry for more moderate policies would help.
This is a "split the right" strategy. The "Liberal-Progressive" (a tentative name, based on potential allies, the 9th place Progressive Canadian Party) coalition would fall on the centre-right of the spectrum. Not a big stretch for the Liberals, who are dying anyways and are grasping to remain relevant.
The Reform Party (aka the Harper Conservatives) are already doing their utmost to polarize the country and leave no middle ground for centrist parties. A Liberal led centrist coalition would be a strategy of survival for Canada's oldest, most continuous political party, a redoubt against its extinction. At the very least, for the short term, giving itself some relevance by threatening to eliminate the Harper majority could bring some relief from the neoconservative onslaught.
What Red Tories? I doubt there are so many as 11 of them in the Conservative caucus.
Oh well.
Then maybe the Libs should try to poach the anti-abortion Cons. There must be more than 11 of those.
[add dry sarcasm emoticon]
The Grits and Tories are made up of the same people, the elite of society. Their little battles are a distraction from the real purpose of each of these parties, which is to keep wealth concentrated in the hands of the few. So, little sideshow scuffles occur while the basic program of empowering the few is pursued by both equally.
Pro-choice Conservatives aren't welcome in their party?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-eager-to-quash-anti-...
The Liberal party is pro-choice?
http://talkpos.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/abortion-hawks-and-doves/
In earnest, even after the merger of the PCs and the Reform, there aren't many actual differences between the Liberals and the Conservatives. They might campaign on different platforms. But in the end, they're both timidly status quo on social issues, and happy to let big business set the economic agenda, doling out patronage to maintain power.
I agree completely.
i can't express how disturbing this is to me.
Why do we need the Liberals to save Canada? Isn't that we hope to do by supporting the NDP?
Agreed. In fact, I'll go even further to say that it's better to have the Liberals as a distant third party then it is to have them as either first or second. So, I don't buy into the idea that it's better to have Liberals running things than it is to have Conservatives running things. In fact, I think things are screwed up in Canada because we've been going from Liberal to Conservative and back for far too long. It's like drinking Pepsi and then switching to Coke, ignoring the all important Orange juice. Sure, either Pepsi or Coke can present itself once in a while as a healthy alternative (Fruitopia? Citrus Blast?), but a choice just between these two? Uhg. Sure, don't want orange juice all the time -- heck, once in a while it's okay to have either a Coke or a Pepsi, but it's important that we drink some orange juice some of the time to keep society together (and preferably most of the time). So, Coke (red) or Pepsi (Blue) sometimes, but also certainly Orange juice sometimes. If Coke (red) pretends via Fruitopia to be as healthy as orange juice, don't be fooled. It's just as crappy as Pepsi. So, flush it down the toilet, and go with orange juice. Likewise, if Liberals pretend to be as healthy as NDP, just flush them down the toilet. It's best to just stick with the NDP (or occasionally the Conservatives -- hey, an occasional change in perspective, just like an occasional soda pop, is good, which is not gotten with the pattern of Canada fluctuating between Libs and Cons -- uhg, too much pop, too little nutrician).
Yes, it's very disturbing. Very much so.
Ilha formosa, I really hope you're being ironic.
I like that so much, I want to see it in a list -
LOL glad I summed up the truth succinctly.
Honestly, though. For better or for worse, Harper isn't all that different from Paul Martin. Both have plenty of pro-life and pro-choice members in their caucus, and have just decided to steer as far away from that as possible. Both cut taxes relentlessly, and paid for it by cutting the investments that built the middle class. And for all that talk about the free market, both of them understood to throw a few big expenditures to help out MPs in swing ridings and other party loyalists outside of Parliament.
The only notable difference is that Harper has been stealthily paving the way for a more conservative government than his. Imagine how much harder it would be to pass new laws and regulations if there were a EEE senate to block parliament, the civil service were eviscerated, and there was no census data to base our policies on.
I'll confess, I'm puzzled as to what is so disturbing about the statement. Granted, I feel the entire premise of the post is wrong (same for this entire thread, actually), but I'm not really seeing what's unusually disturbing about Ilha formosa's particular post.
My understanding of her/his posts is along these lines: Post #1 describes her/his idea that if Liberals became centre right, they could attract "red Tories" over to them, and thus cripple the evil Conservatives (and hence "save Canada")*. Another person in Post # 2 expresses doubt that this would have much effect, questioning whether there are enough "red Tories" to actually make a significant difference even if they moved over to the Liberals (speculating there are at most only eleven). He/she responds by acknowledging the possible truth of post # 2, but still maintains that the Liberals could attract some non-red Tories (blue Tories) of which he/she speculates there are certainly more than eleven (IE, enough to make a difference) and that this would still help save Canada by weakening the Tories. Non-red Tories/Blue Tories are identified as those who are Anti-choice, which doesn't seem unreasonable (IE, usually Conservatives are deemed either "red" or "blue" on the basis of their attitudes toward social issues like being Pro-Choice or not). Perhaps the objection is over whether Liberals would accept people with anti-choice attitudes. If one looks at the voting record of Liberals, there have certainly been some who are quite regressive on such issues (IE, Tom Wappel). So really, I don't think that Ilha formosa is off in such an assertion. Certainly there are a lot of social conservatives on the CPC that the LPC would be open to if they chose to cross the floor. The difference between the LPC and CPC is rather minute, I feel (which ironically brings the entire premise into question, but if one were to assume, as Ilha formosa has, that it's better for Canada for the LPC to have more and the CPC to have less, then I don't see why anyone would find the post to be shocking.)
*note, I don't see a particular difference between Liberals and Conservatives, so I don't buy such a premise.
I think if the Liberals could poach some Cons, not only would the Cons be reduced to minority government, it might make it easier for the NDP to win next time (2015?).
The problem of course is that if the Libs become too right wing, they'll just back the Cons, if the NDP ever become a minority or even a majority. The Libs, being so close to the Cons, would never vote for NDP initiatives.
As much as I'd like to see the Conservative government toppled, and it's true that having 11 MPs cross over to virtually any other party would do it. But if there's anything that I've learned from watching the years of Liberal strategery, it's that the voters will resent you for it. Nothing would galvanize Conservatives (and sympathizers) more than knowing that the government fell over some insider politics.
This is why we have elections.
Just like in Britain.
I was being sarcastic, if that makes you feel any better.
Bingo! I didn't think this was so hard to understand. The Libs have to find 11 Cons to slice off the majority in this Parliament. Otherwise, the country continues to polarize radically, and the Liberals will have even less reason to exist come the next election. So poaching Cons is in the self-interest of the Liberals.
To reiterate, my "attracting anti-abortionists" comment was made with SARCASM, that I thought was dripping off the screen. It was based on the news story of the day, about Harper trying to quell his anti-abortion MPs.
That said, maybe the Reform Party could make a comeback and split the right?
Anyway, key idea of this thread is, someone has to drive wedges between the Con factions and reduce this majority government to a minority before the end of this Parliament's term. And if they don't succeed in eliminating the majority, the pressure applied could help to moderate Conservative policies and arrogant attitudes. (Arrogance! Once the privileged domain of Liberals.)
I think the Liberals should be wiped out completely...The Greens will then rise as the new centrist party after we win the next election and we can maintain a 3-party system
"How the Liberals might save Canada, along with their own sorry butts"
Pssst....the NDP are the Official Opposition and are the party in position to "save Canada". I'm so sick of people and News media treating the NDP like it's all a fluke and the "real" opposition is still the Liberals. Since the PC's were fired enmasse in the ninties, parties are on notice they can no longer take Canadian voter loyalty for granted. The Liberals are the next party to receive their walking papers, so hitching your star to that party at this point is definitely going against the current.
Explaining the nuances of what I am getting at...
I know the NDP is Official Opposition and positioning to be the next government. A Mulcair majority after the next election would be great.
Where in the above did I say the NDP rise was a fluke? If you read more carefully what I wrote, rather than what you think I wrote, you would have seen that I agree fully with your observation that the Liberals are "the next party to receive their walking papers."
Pssst....there is a majority Conservative government sitting in Parliament right now, and they think they can do what they bloody well want.
It pains me to see what the Cons are doing, and to imagine what they'll do in the next three years. The situation is urgent.
So, could any Conservative MPs be convinced to change parties, before the next election? Ideally, to the extent that the Cons lose their majority? If there are floor crossers, they are not likely to go from the Cons to the NDP, but another party closer to them on the political spectrum.
meh, why try to imagine such extravagant scenarios, when you could simply wait for the completion of the Orange Revolution.
The scenario I see is that the Liberals, to remain in existence, have to appeal to the centre-right of the spectrum, which was once split between the Liberals and PCs - the blue grit/red tory, pepsi/coke, tweedle-dum/tweedle-dee tag team of Paul Martin and Brian Mulroney analogues.
If the NDP is to form government they need support from the centre and leftward. Ideally, they won't be in much need of Liberal party support.
Forget the Liberals....that is the point....the NDP is the way.
as this majority government runs roughshod over everything good built up in Canada over decades, even centuries???
Like Brigette DePape expressed, THIS government has to be stopped. Stop Harper.
Yes but the point is to express your disdain for th Cons THROUGH the NDP not the Liberals.
Could't agree more. If you want to beat Harper, work to elect a New Dem majority. That is the only thing to focus on.