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Syria #7: Russia readies marines for Syria mission

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MegB
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

A_J wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

You can take your "complaining" about the moderators to another thread. 

For full disclosure, I've flagged this post for oppressive, anti-feminist language.

So AJ what to you think about peace as a feminist issue.  I am sure your commitment to feminist discourse must be more than just correcting your allies on inadvertent language slips.  You could have PM'ed me and I would have changed it as soon as I realized my stupid comment.  But no on babble public shaming and pillorying is the preferred method of correcting allies.  Of course if you don't think I am a ally then I would deserve your very pointed comment.

But really what do you think about the male war games being played out in Syria.  Do you think that the NATO driven civil war will help or hurt the cause of women in Syria?

http://rabble.ca/babble/feminism/peace-feminist-issue

Would it kill you to simply say, "You're right. I'm sorry."  But no, you have to go on the offensive.  This is a perfect example of why there are so few women participating on babble.

ETA: There is no shame in making a mistake -- we all do it and a simple mea culpa allows everyone to move on -- just as there is nothing wrong pointing out the mistake in the first place.  Not one of us is an example of "the perfect progressive" (whatever that is) but we hate like hell having it brought to our attention.

Anyway, enough thread drift.


kropotkin1951
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't want to derail this thread, and I see your one in reactions is gone, so I hope no one minds a brief response.

 

Since you are pretending to ask for permission then I must say that I would prefer if you would just not derail the thread.  You haven't even made a post in this thread on the topic. You can take your complaining about the moderators to another thread. 

ETA My apologies for slipping into dominant language.

This was what I did to correct my mistake as soon as I saw it before I posted anything else. Sorry Rebbecca I will try harder in the future. 


MegB
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kropotkin1951 wrote:

This was what I did to correct my mistake as soon as I saw it before I posted anything else. Sorry Rebbecca I will try harder in the future. 

Thank you.  I sincerely appreciate the effort you - and many others - are making to create a more woman-friendly place here on babble.


kropotkin1951
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Rebbecca could you please edit the posts at 23 and 25 to completely remove the offensive language I was responsible for.


Fidel
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Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Who is the opposition in Syria, Bec? ---

Is this a trick question?...Laughing

 

The reason your government and vicious toadies in Ottawa mention not the democratic political opposition in Syria is similar to the reason why democratic opposition in Kabul is never mentioned in favour of the Taliban. Taliban is all you know of  and hear about the opposition in Afghanistan, and yet that group of former US proxies represent maybe 20% of total "insurgents" in that country. Only warlords and other right wing extremists are worthy of mention in Warshington and Ottawa. Why is that, Bec?

Right wing extremists in the NATO countries are trying desperately to rape our minds as if we were so many Afghan, Iraqi, Libyan or Syrian women whose basic rights are violated daily and who will surely have no rights once Assad is overthrown by violent misogynists currently aided and abetted by the west and imperialist helper nations in the "Middle East." 


Bec.De.Corbin
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I have no idea what you want me to say... but to say that only outside Islamist and NATO troops are the only ones fighting the government forces in Syria would be incorrect. I have no idea of their break down but it would appear the Islamist and the FSA are the hardest fighting of the bunch... even that is speculation as all the Syrian resistance factions that post on YouTube pretty much act the same way which is, strangely enough, just like the Iraqi resistance did when it existed. Allot of Syrians fought in Iraq and the regime pretty much ignored them coming and going during the Iraq occupation. It now looks like some of those chickens have come home to roost.

Also you have any clue as to why Sen. McCain is "complaining" about the USA not giving the Syrian resistance weapons when you in fact say the USA is? Is he misinformed?

 

http://rt.com/usa/news/mccain-syria-american-arms-777/

 


kropotkin1951
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Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

 Also you have any clue as to why Sen. McCain is "complaining" about the USA not giving the Syrian resistance weapons when you in fact say the USA is?

My best guess is he is an old fool who isn't in the loop on the various actions being conducted by the American agencies that the White House and other sources admit are on the ground in Syria.


Merowe
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

My understanding is that arms are being channeled to the rebels through American proxies Saudi and Qatar who fund the acquisition. Its fairly simple to smuggle gear in across the Lebanese border - as local tribes have done for long-long time and it is happening. 

I also understand that as the central authority is being challenged local feuds are flaring up, along all the sordid lines, ethnic, religious etc. That's the trouble with an escalating violence scenario: noone can control it and that is the case here. In this light I think its mistaken to give much weight to any notion of a unified 'rebel' force with deep grass roots.

Personally one of my greatest concerns is for the peerless trove of antiquities which lay across the length and breadth of this ancient land, as in Iraq. I learned recently for example that some force - either pro or anti, it seems increasingly immaterial - is shelling the Crusader fortress of Krak des Chevaliers. Noone is quite sure why, there is no armed presence there, it seems simple bloodymindedness, like the Bamiyan buddhas. Another reason why de-escalation is the only course I can get behind, asap. Talks, somewhere to revitalize the grudging steps Assad had already started taking.

Senator McCain is a froot loop.


NDPP
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Germany Rules Out Military Intervention in Syria

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/21/247213/germany-opposed-military-...

"Germany has strongly opposed military intervention in Syria, adding voice to the calls for a political solution to the country's prolonged crisis..."

 

Satanic Alliance Forces Against Syria: Analyst (and vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/21/247312/satanic-alliance-forms-ag...

"According to a New York Times report published on Thursday, some US and Arab intelligence officials say a group of 'CIA officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey' and that the agents are helping the anti-Syrian governments decide which gangs inside the Arab country will 'receive arms to fight the Syrian government.' Interview with Mohsen Saleh of Lebanese University in Beirut."


Fidel
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Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
Also you have any clue as to why Sen. McCain is "complaining" about the USA not giving the Syrian resistance weapons when you in fact say the USA is? Is he misinformed?

Oh fcs! Details-details. Is McCain clueless? No, he isn't. I'm not sure what McCain does at work all day, but he can't use the excuse that he is too broke to pay attention. I'm afraid Sen. McCain is talking out of the other side of his mouth again.

C.I.A. Said to Aid in Steering Arms to Syrian Opposition

New York Times wrote:
The weapons, including automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, ammunition and some antitank weapons, are being funneled mostly across the Turkish border by way of a shadowy network of intermediaries including Syria's Muslim Brotherhood and paid for by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the officials said.

Cosmetic U.S. Government may not be officially involved, but its clandestine services department is in there like a dirty shirt again.


NDPP
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Ousting Assad: Western Panacea to Syrian Conflict? (and vid)

http://www.rt.com/news/assad-syria-power-transfer-clemency-447/

"The new Western tactic to creating an end to violence in Syria is, yet again, centered on ousting President Assad. Britain and the US are ready to offer Assad clemency would he join a UN sponsored conference on a power transfer. But Assad still has a lot of legitimacy within Syria, with more than 50 percent of the population's support, political analyst Roula Taly told RT.."

 

Russia Rejects Scheme to Push Assad into Resignation, Exile

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/21/247283/russia-rejects-schemes-pu...

"Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has ruled out any peace plan for Syria that calls on President Bashar al Assad to step down and go into exile. 'It is infeasible because he will not leave', he added.."

 

US-Led Vicious Alliance Behind Violence in Syria: Analyst (and vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/22/247372/us-nasty-alliance-behind-...

"US media has confirmed that the CIA is helping armed gangs in Syria, operating out of Turkey with weapons smuggled through Turkey [and Lebanon]. Press TV has interviewed Franklin Lamb, a Beirut-based international lawyer, about the details of the NYT report and the impact this crisis is having on Lebanon..

'the goal, besides regime change, is to weaken Iran and weaken Hezbollah. So the stakes are very, very high. I have little doubt that the Americans will go much further in the future as far as ratcheting up the pressure to implement its goals.."


NDPP
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Canadian Military Planners Spin Syria Scenarios as UN Suspends Mission

http://www.globeandmail.com/news/national/canadian-military-planners-spi...

"The Canadian military is drawing up contingency plans in case the Harper government chooses to join any international intervention in the Syria crisis. A broad range of scenarios are under consideration, one high-ranking official at National Defence told the Canadian Press. Laurent Fabius, the French foreign minister, said Syria is in a civil war and he hoped Russia would set aside its reservations and agree to invoke the UN,s Chapter 7. That allows the Security Council to take military action to restore the peace.

'If they established safe zones tomorrow, half the world would sigh a sigh of relief and say, 'Oh my God. Good. We've done that. We've done something,' said Mr [Lewis] Mackenzie who commanded Canadian peacekeeprs during the siege of Sarajevo.."

and the other half would say there's the disgusting Canadians playing satan's little helper once more..


Fidel
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Quote:
But Assad still has a lot of legitimacy within Syria, with more than 50 percent of the population's support, political analyst Roula Taly told RT.."

It sounds like what Syrians want is in direct conflict with what the Gladio Gang desires. How could this be? I'd bet herr Harper is green with envy and wishing he was as popular in Syria and, hell, in Canada for that matter.

Toys for the "Peaceful" Syrian Opposition: Modern weapons confirm Western support for FSA Terrorists photographic evidence


6079_Smith_W
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NDPP
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US Policy Takes Over By Radicals Affiliated with Zionists (and vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/22/247440/radical-zionism-has-seize...

"...So again, it's not in the interests of the American people to be doing this, but it is in the interests of the radical Likud Zionists and the Military Industrial complex and unfortunately they have seized power in the USA.." Discussion with experts


NDPP
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Syria Downed Turkish Fighter Jet Over its Territorial Waters

http://www.rt.com/news/turkish-plane-erdogan-statement-543/

"The Syrian military has confirmed that it downed a Turkish military jet over its territorial waters. There have been conflicting reports on the fate of the plane's pilots. RT's Marina Finoshima reports that Syrian sources indicated that they had captured, while Turkish media reported that they had been rescued. The jet was unlikely to be carrying out a simple reconnaissance mission, but was probably a provocative probe to test the Syrian security initiative and ability to protect its borders, believes author and academic Colin s Cavell. Being a NATO member, Turkey can count on the alliance support if it comes under attack..

'The F-4 Phantom, is utilized and supplied by the US to Turkey, and of course the United States and Turkey can claim that Syria has attacked it,' Cavell told RT. 'Of course that would be the ruse they will utilize if they wanted NATO to further intervene.."

Erdogan Leaves Syrian Apology for Shooting Down Turkish Jet Unconfirmed

http://www.rt.com/news/turkey-contact-aircraft-sea-498/

"...The plane crashed into or near Syrian territorial waters earlier today, according to reports. A missile fired by the Syrian defense system shattered into into pieces after which the jet plunged into teh Mediterranean Sea. Syrian vessels have joined a search operation which was launched immediately after the Turkish military lost radar and radio contacts with the craft.

International Relations expert mark Almond, says in the event of a NATO intervention scenario, Turkey might launch a probing flight to assess Syria's capabilities. 'If the NATO countries were really thinking of some kind of intervention to assist the rebels against Assad's regime, the first thing they'll want to do is knock out Syria's air forces and defence systems. So some kind of a probing flight testing Syria's responses would be possible.."


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Will it be another Gulf de Tonkin false flag? Team Gladio dreams of war. It's what they do.


Bec.De.Corbin
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Wow... an F-4 Phantom II... on oldie but still, with modifications, a goodie; it's the flower of mid 1960s US fighter technology. It's still in use and the Turkish Air Force uses three versions, two models are configured for attack missions (bombing) which been recently used to bomb Kurdish rebels in Iraq and one model or type for reconnaissance (scouting). I'm willing to bet it was the reconnaissance version, the RF F4E Phantom 2, (not that any reporters form news sources posted here would get the exact model right). I'll let you folks here do all the speculating as to what it was up to when it got shot down.

Turkey does have much more modern aircraft in its air force including 240 F-16s which they built under license from the USA. It would be practical to use an older aircraft if they were just "probing" Syria's air defenses, not that a drone wouldn't have been even better.

I hope the crew survived and I really want this to be a screw-up of some kind, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Everyone have a great weekend. I'm going out to enjoy the 103 degree weather we're going to have this weekend.


NDPP
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Have a good one Bec. And easy on the Soju!  Cool

 

Rebels Use 'Brutal Tactics' Against Syria Army

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/23/247534/rebels-brutal-tactics-syr...

"A new report has revealed that the armed groups fighting against the government of Syrian President Bashar al Assad are using brutal tactics to attack the Army forces in the crisis-hit country. Three Associated Press reporters who spend two weeks with the rebels in northern Syria, found that the anti-government militants turn their prisoners into unwitting bombers, arming the vehicles carrying the inmates with bombs and detonating the explosives at Army checkpoints.."

Syrian Government Ready to Withdraw Together With Opposition

http://www.rt.com/news/lavrov-syrian-government-forces-withdrawal-494

"Syrian forces are ready to withdraw their forces if this happens simultaneously with the withdrawal of the opposition, said Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov citing his Syrian counterpart Walid Muallem. 'Government forces and the armed opposition have to simultaneously withdraw from the cities under the control of international observers. The Syrian government is ready for that', Lavrov told the press after meeting the Syrian Foreign Minister.."


Fidel
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CONFIRMED: US CIA Arming Terrorists in Syria

Quote:
As West berates Syria for "killing civilians" Western weapons flow into terrorist hands from NATO.

The New York Times in their article, "C.I.A. Said to Aid in Steering Arms to Syrian Opposition," confirms what many have already long known - that the West, led by the US and its Gulf State proxies, have been arming terrorists, particularly the Muslim Brotherhood, while berating the Syrian government for "violating" a UN mandated ceasefire and for "failing to protect" its population.

The Muslim Brotherhood has been combated by nations across the Arab World to stem the tide of their sectarian extremism, violence, and their targeted erosion of secular nation-states. Ironically, the US which has claimed to have been fighting the forces of sectarian extremism and "terrorism" for over a decade now, have been revealed as the primary enabler of the most violent and extreme terrorist organizations in the world. These include, in addition to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) in Libya, Baluch terrorists in Pakistan, and the Mujahideen-e-Khalq (MEK) currently based in Iraq and being used as proxies against Iran.

USA the lead Gladio nation and prime enabler of right wing extremism around the world.

The USA and its clandestine services have been arming enemies of the people for a long time. 

Sen. John Kerry, Meet the Press Invterview, 2005 wrote:
"We delivered weapons to the Khmer Rouge on the coastline of Cambodia."
 

Presidential candidate John Kerry on arming Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, the biggest mass murderers since Adolf Hitler. It's what they do.


NDPP
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Saudi Arabia and Qatar Bankroll Syria Rebels?

http://www.rt.com/news/arab-payroll-syrian-rebels-559/

"Free Syria Army (FSA) militants are about to go on the Saudi payroll, the country's officials shared with the Guardian. Riyadh believes this step will encourage defection within the Syrian military in the latest bid to oust President Assad. Saudi Arabia plans to pay future military deserters in dollars and euros as a counter to the greatly devalued Syrian pound Damascus uses to pay the military.

Ankara also agreed on establishing a Syrian opposition command center in Istanbul to coordinate arms supplies to Syria and maintain contact with scattered opposition groups..."

WikiLeaks Cables Show Planning for Destabilising  Syria in 2006

http://fitzhenrymac.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/wikileaks-cable-shows-plann...

"Does the press have such short memories that they don't link the evidence from these cables to what is happening in Syria right now. The Guardian talked about an even earlier plan with horrible similarity to today's actions in 2003.."


NDPP
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Gulf of Tonkin Redux? - by Stephen Lendman

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/gulf-of-tonkin-redux/

"Ankara acted provocatively. Perhaps it was at the behest of Washington?"


Fidel
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US Struggles to Install Proxy "Brotherhood" in Egypt From Egypt to Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood does the West's bidding

Quote:
Muslim Brotherhood were, are, and will be Western Proxies

Despite the Brotherhood's lofty rhetoric, it has from its inception been a key proliferator of Western foreign policy. Currently, the Syrian arm of the Muslim Brotherhood has been involved heavily, leading in fact, the US, Israeli, Saudi, and Qatari-backed sectarian violence that has been ravaging Syria for over a year. In a May 6, 2012 Reuters article it stated:

"Working quietly, the Brotherhood has been financing Free Syrian Army defectors based in Turkey and channeling money and supplies to Syria, reviving their base among small Sunni farmers and middle class Syrians, opposition sources say."

Egyptian election was a sham according to Samir Amin. Observers ignored irregularities.


NDPP
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Syria Warns NATO of Conspiring Against Damascus

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/25/247914/syria-warns-nato-against-...

"Syria has warned NATO against conspiring with Turkey against Damascus in their upcoming meeting on the shooting down by Syria of a Turkish jet fighter..."


NDPP
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Syria Puts Double Whammy on Turkey    -   by MK Bhadrakumar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NF26Ak02.html

"...even within Turkey, there is skepticism about what really happened. The veteran Turkish editor Yousef Kanli wrote:

'Did the plane violate Syrian airspace?...On the other hand, why was the Turkish reconnaissance plane flying so low, in an area close to a Russian base, and why did it keep going in and out of Syrian airspace so many times in the 15 - minute period before it was downed? Was it testing the air-defense capabilities of Syria (or the Russian base) before an intervention which might come later this year?...."

Syria and Turkey's Phantom War  - by Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NF26Ak01.html

"...No doubt this will get much uglier. But in 'Wag the Dog' terms - and that's what this is all about - no one knows for sure: is Turkey trying to wage the NATO dog into a war, or is it the other way around?"


Bec.De.Corbin
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Details for the actual shot down here...

Quote:

Makdessi pointed out that official correspondence with Turkey on Sunday clarified the details of the incident in response to the Turkish allegations that what happened was a Syrian aggression against Turkey, with the correspondence stating that on 11.40 AM on June 22nd, Syrian radar systems detected a flying object heading towards Syrian territories that performed a left turn towards the northeast and climbed down to a low altitude where it disappeared from the radars, only to appear suddenly at an altitude of 100 meters, 1 to 2 kilometers from the beach and Syrian land, and became suddenly visible to the naked eye.

He added that later, it turned out that the object was an aircraft heading towards the beach and Syrian land at a speed of 700 to 800 kph, which engaged the rules of engagement employed in all sovereign countries, prompting Syrian anti-air defense to engage it.

Makdessi affirmed that the weapon used in repelling this violation of Syrian airspace was anti-aircraft artillery firing 23.57 rounds stationed on Syrian beaches, hitting the aircraft directly, adding that the aircraft was seen heading left afterwards and crashing in Syrian territorial waters.

If it was 23.57mm cannon rounds that brought the jet down then it was well within Syrian air space. The 23mm cannon has a maximum range of about 4,000 meters (again well within Syrian air space) and is fitted on the ZSU 23-4 which is operated by the Syrian army.

Here it is here... it has four 23mm cannons on it and the round thing on top is a fire control radar which would allow it to hit a target like a fast moving low flying jet. You just turn it on and it automaticly aims and shoots at the target, all you do is feed it ammo.

 


NDPP
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US and Israel to Hold Largest Ever Joint Military Exercise

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31700.htm

"Focusing on stopping ballistic missiles and featuring thousands of soldiers, the October drill will simulate simultaneous rocket fire from Syria and Iran. Some military analysts have nicknamed the exercise a 'dress rehearsal' for a military conflict.."


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

The first reports I read didn't mention the Russian base location.  If this was not a testing of the Syrian/Russian defense systems it is hard to figure what else it could be.  I expect that an Iranian plane on a training mission that took it into Bahrain airspace close to the US base would have met the same fate.

I feel sorry for the pilots whose lives someone in the command structure gambled with and lost.


Caissa
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Turkey's prime minister, responding to the downing of a Turkish jet by Syrian forces, said Tuesday that Turkish military will respond to any future violation of its border by Syrian military elements.

"The rules of engagement of the Turkish Armed Forces have changed," Recep Tayyip Erdogan said. "Any military element that approaches the Turkish border from Syria by posing a security risk and danger will be regarded as a threat and treated as a military target."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/26/syria-turkey-nato-jet-meet...

Bec.De.Corbin
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Joined: Mar 17 2010

Yes the Russian base was pretty close to where this happened as far as flight time goes. The shoot down was justifyed as far as where the jet was. It's a pity the crew is probably lost and the current state of tention in the region resulted in the Syrian units firing on the jet instead of interseping it or warning it off.


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