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Should These People Have Guns?

Sandy Dillon
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Joined: Mar 15 2003

Should returning military personnel who have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder  be allowed to have guns?

In this case they only shot each other but what if they go out mass hunting at a school or mall?

Also note killing didn't really seem to bother this hero sniper who (note) did 4 tours in war zones only to end up being shot on his home turf the gun infested U.S.A.! More guns less gun crime eh Homer? Ya right!

Before I tried to tell people the majority of these mass killers HAVE no previous criminal records and they came from the ranks of the so called law abiding gun owners. I mentioned these killers are amoung the so called law abiding gun toters I also mentioned you law abiding gun owners probably shoot with them at the range. I was critized for even bringing THAT FACT UP!!

Here is proof I know of what I speak openly about.Smile

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/02/03/american_sniper_author_chris_kyle_shot_dead_in_texas.html

American Sniper author Chris Kyle shot dead in Texas


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Sandy Dillon
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Joined: Mar 15 2003

Here are a couple of Canada's so called LAW ABIDING GUN  owners who went on a shooting spree:::

in 2006, Kimveer Gill (LAW ABIDING GUN OWNER) used a Beretta Cx4 Storm to shoot 72 rounds at Montreal's Dawson College, injuring 16 and killing student Anastasia DeSousa.

In the 1989 massacre of 14 women at the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal, Marc Lepine (LAW ABIDING GUN OWNER) used a Ruger Mini-14 rifle.

RE::Montreal coroner Jacques Ramsay said in his 2008 report on the shooting that semi-automatics such as the Storm should not be available to the public and should be prohibited outright. Gill was able to obtain one as a (LAW ABIDING) gun-club member.

http://www.canada.com/news/Guns+used+notorious+Canadian+mass+shootings+s...


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

The lethality of guns is normally determined by, among other things, the number of rounds per minute that can be fired from one.  Most people would say that a machete has no place in society either, although it seems logical that certain people might like to own such things as collectors items, souvenirs, for use in rural settings, etc.  I don't know if it has ever been determined how many swings of a machete a person could manage to perform per minute, but I would say quite a few, depending on the physical stamina of the person wielding one.  As far as I know, with rare exceptions, most machete owners are also law abiding citizens.  You hardly ever hear about machete attacks against crowds of people, but I suppose it to be within the realm of possibility because there have been precedents.  The same possibilities would exist for an axe or meat cleaver wielding assailant.  A ice pick or a two-by-four would do in a pinch as well.


Serviam6
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Joined: Nov 7 2012

weird double post

 


jas
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Joined: Jun 6 2005

Slumberjack wrote:

The lethality of guns is normally determined by, among other things, the number of rounds per minute that can be fired from one. 

What possible use would a civilian have for a semi-automatic weapon?


Serviam6
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Joined: Nov 7 2012

I was expecting you to try and capitalize on this for your crusade against firearms Sandy and you fail to disapoint.

Sandy Dillon wrote:

Also note killing didn't really seem to bother this hero sniper who (note) did 4 tours in war zones only to end up being shot on his home turf the gun infested U.S.A.! More guns less gun crime eh Homer? Ya right!

You don't sound like Homer you sound like Nelson pointing his finger joyfully chanting "HA HA"

Quote:

Should returning military personnel who have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder  be allowed to have guns?

Why just the military, why not suggest ANYONE with PTSD be banned from having firearms? What about a woman suffering from postpartum, should they not be allowed to have guns too?


Quote:

In this case they only shot each other but what if they go out mass hunting at a school or mall?

The same thing that happens when anyone goes on a mass shooting spree at a school or mall?


Quote:

Before I tried to tell people the majority of these mass killers HAVE no previous criminal records and they came from the ranks of the so called law abiding gun owners. I mentioned these killers are amoung the so called law abiding gun toters I also mentioned you law abiding gun owners probably shoot with them at the range. I was critized for even bringing THAT FACT UP!!

Here is proof I know of what I speak openly about.Smile

Your empirical evidence is neigh impossible to refute.

 

2 examples of 2 shootings in the last 24 years of law abiding citizens on shooting rampages?  Hardly a concrete stat to reference, why don't you compare the list of all violent firearms related crime in the last 24 years?

 

 

 


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

jas wrote:
What possible use would a civilian have for a semi-automatic weapon?

If you're hunting for example, and fail to bring an animal down with the first shot, but would hate to have an animal suffering a second longer than necessary, a quick second shot might be required, or perhaps even a third depending on the distance,  In that instance, having to manually reload a bullet after each shot might result in the animal bolting for its life to someplace difficult to follow or track, and suffering needlessly as a result.  The fact of the matter is that people intent on harming other people in society can be quite ingenious, having no particular need of access to guns of any sort as a prerequisite to carry out their deeds.  A quick trip to a hardware store is all it requires.


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

At this point,I don't care anymore....Give people the right to own and possess ANY weapon their little hearts desire...50 calibre machine guns,uzis,bazookas,spud missiles,napalm bombs...I'm done caring.

No need to shed any more tears when massacres take place.


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

alan smithee wrote:
At this point,I don't care anymore....Give people the right to own and possess ANY weapon their little hearts desire...50 calibre machine guns,uzis,bazookas,spud missiles!!!, napalm bombs...I'm done caring.

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

I wonder whether a russet or yukon gold works better?

 


jas
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Joined: Jun 6 2005

SJ, it would be very difficult to mow down people in a mall with a machete.

And the hunting example, well... it seems to me that the time it takes you to determine whether the animal is merely hurt rather than dead is already more than enough for it to bolt, and is also time enough for you to reload your gun.

Semi-automatic rifles for hunting probably merely enable poorly skilled hunters.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I like that. Private ownership of semi-automatic weapons to satisfy the compassionate humanitarian impulse in hunters. See - that's much better than "Guns Galore, Kill Kill Kill!" It's almost left-wing in its grace.

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Well I can certainly see what bait works best if one is interested in going trolling for fish.

And jas, I don't want to be accused of being an automatic weapons apologist, but I think the machete was the weapon of choice in the Rwandan genocide. Not to mention, it is hitting the news pages with alarming frequency in the new pages even here, in the wild west.

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

See, and here I had always been misunderstanding the acronym for National Rwandan Assistance.

 


Serviam6
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Joined: Nov 7 2012

It took two posts to go from the question of whether or not specifically identified people should have guns to highlighting what kid of guns were used.  Most of the remaining posts make no mention about "the people" but debate the merits of what devices the people used to kill.

 

We're too focused on the devices and not the causes.

 

But since that seems to be the flavor, here are 10 bullets being fired from a bolt action rifle that's over 50 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC3zsPOIYag

 

He fires about 1 bullet a second from the "bolt action".  That's not slow.


jas
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Joined: Jun 6 2005

Serviam6 wrote:

It took two posts to go from the question of whether or not specifically identified people should have guns to highlighting what kid of guns were used.  Most of the remaining posts make no mention about "the people" but debate the merits of what devices the people used to kill.

We're too focused on the devices and not the causes.


That's the argument of the NRA as well.

But isn't it always going to be easier to regulate devices over people? If you draw the line at automatic weapons, then you don't have to get into endless disputes over which people can and can't own them.


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

Unionist wrote:
I like that. Private ownership of semi-automatic weapons to satisfy the compassionate humanitarian impulse in hunters. See - that's much better than "Guns Galore, Kill Kill Kill!" It's almost left-wing in its grace. 

Well the question was asked...'what possible use?'  And I happen to know a few left wing humanitarian hunters btw.  Anarchists actually.  You're still curious about that Rent-a-Gun.gc.ca concept instead of private ownership are you?  I thought we went over that.


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

jas wrote:
SJ, it would be very difficult to mow down people in a mall with a machete.  And the hunting example, well... it seems to me that the time it takes you to determine whether the animal is merely hurt rather than dead is already more than enough for it to bolt, and is also time enough for you to reload your gun.  Semi-automatic rifles for hunting probably merely enable poorly skilled hunters.

It wouldn't be pretty.  And about having enough time, not really because even injured animals can move over terrain amazingly fast.  Hunting skill has a little more to it than aiming and shooting.  It could be a top of the line weapon, perfectly zeroed, and after jostling along in the bush for awhile, the sight could very easily cause the aimer to confirm anywhere within or even outside of the aperture.  A good hunter could self adjust if they have a good idea of where the round impacted, but if you're dealing with injured game it's already on the move before you can blink.  Beyond a magazine capacity of five rounds max though, no there's no particular reason for hunters to have more.  Semi-auto doesn't always mean Kalashnikov sized magazines with bandoliers strung across the shoulders for reloads.


jas
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Joined: Jun 6 2005

Aware of that, but nor is the sport or livelihood of hunting dependent on semi-automatic rifles - quite the opposite. And if that's the only civilian use for SLRs and given that they are creating many problems in the hands of unstable personalities, restricting them is the easiest way to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number. If a person can't hunt with a manual-loading gun, maybe he or she shouldn't be out there.

 


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

p


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

alan smithee wrote:

SCUD missiles,comedians.(lame comedians at that)

AS I said,let them all have their guns,knives or bombs....who cares?

You're wasting your time debating and discussing this issue....Nobody wants gun control.

There shouldn't be background checks,there shouldn't be licenses,there shouldn't be limits.

Everyone should be armed to the teeth,be able to carry their weapons...let's just get it over with already.


Sandy Dillon
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Joined: Mar 15 2003

 

Years ago I had debates with the gun toting crowd and I said SOME of you people have fought every bit of gun legislation brought forward and in my opinion some of you people won't be happy until all gun cointrol laws are repealed.

I was told back then that this was not so!!!

And now that the long gun registry is gone looky what they want gone next!!!! Three letters have gone out to the Conservatives wanting more gun laws loosened. It never ever stops folks.

I know of what I speak!!!


http://nfa.ca/news?page=1

Letter to Hon. Vic Toews, MP - Repeal of Criminal Code Sections 91, 92 and necessary amendments


Sandy Dillon
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Joined: Mar 15 2003

RE::I was expecting you to try and capitalize on this for your crusade against firearms Sandy and you fail to disapoint.

My crusade is more about being for gun control laws and not so much against firearms! Certain firearms yes all firearms no!!!


Sandy Dillon
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Joined: Mar 15 2003

RE::2 examples of 2 shootings in the last 24 years of law abiding citizens on shooting rampages?  Hardly a concrete stat to reference, why don't you compare the list of all violent firearms related crime in the last 24 years?

Oh there are more than just these two and you know it! RIGHT?Wink


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

As it is already, mental illness is assessed at the time someone applies for or renews a gun license. I don't think it should be claimed someone is unsuitable for gun ownership just from having a PTSD diagnosis since the nature and severity of the problem differs with the individual.


Mr.Tea
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Joined: Jul 9 2011

I'm not a gun owner or hunter so don't really know much about guns maybe someone here knows the answer. When people say "semi-automatic" guns, aren't most or virtually all guns today semi-automatic (at least), as in you don't have to reload but can just keep pulling the trigger? If the technology exists so you don't have to reload each time, wouldn't that just become the new standard and NON-semi-automatic guns go the way of the rotary phone?


Serviam6
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Joined: Nov 7 2012

jas wrote:

Serviam6 wrote:

It took two posts to go from the question of whether or not specifically identified people should have guns to highlighting what kid of guns were used.  Most of the remaining posts make no mention about "the people" but debate the merits of what devices the people used to kill.

We're too focused on the devices and not the causes.


That's the argument of the NRA as well.

But isn't it always going to be easier to regulate devices over people? If you draw the line at automatic weapons, then you don't have to get into endless disputes over which people can and can't own them.

 

It may be easier to regulate devices over people but that does not nessairily mean it's more effective.

 

I googled a list of school shootings in the US which date back to the 1700's 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

The types of firearms used are quite varied with no precedence given to automatic firearms or assault rifles (Pistols seem like the major type used).

As well the death/injury rate seem to average between 2 and 5 people with a few shooting death/injuries in the double digits and many being just one person.

 

Given the numbers at a quick glance the type of firearm used (bolt action, semi-automatic, pump action) and magazine capacity does not seem like an effective measure of curbing violence and injuries.


Bacchus
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Joined: Dec 8 2003

Bolt action-you load the bullet after every shot

Semi auto-gun auto loads the bullet into the bolt action for you, you need to pull trigger to shoot it

Auto-designed to load and fire itself for you as long as the trigger is held


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

I'm not a hunter but I believe almost all the hunters I know use semi-automatic rifles.  There are probably more cross bow hunters than bolt action rifle hunters although there are likely more bolt action rifles in collections than crossbows. 

Almost every year of the seven I lived in the Rockie Mountain Trench a Lower Mainland hunter would either kill or seriously injure some other hunter.  Buck fever induced rustle shots kill too many.  Maybe that could be tested for before hunting permits are issued.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

In the 1980s when I lived in northern Ontario I belonged to the local rod and gun club, and I had a collection of Winchester firearms: lever action rifles (30-30, aka "the cowboy gun"), semiauto shotguns, pump shotguns, single shot shotgun, semiauto rifles. I was a member of a handgun club as well, but always used other's guns - never had a handgun of my own. I've used semiauto handguns and revolvers. The most fun I ever had was participating in a black powder shoot.

I got rid of all my firearms at the end of the 1980s - I noticed they affected my hearing considerably when I fired them. Didn't use ear protection back then.

When hunting, just because one has a semiauto doesn't mean you fire until all the ammo runs out. The second (and others) shot is there if needed.


Hurtin Albertan
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Joined: Nov 19 2010

Several reasons for owning semiautomatics that i can think of.

One obvious advantage to a magazine fed semiautomatic firearm is it's ability to engage multiple targets quickly.  For example if you are doing pest eradication.  Easier to shoot 3 or 4 coyotes that way than to use a bolt action.  Coyotes quickly learn to avoid people with guns, so if they have been shot at previously they will not stick around and wait for follow up shots.  I once met some nice people who were doing wolf eradication work from a helicopter.  If I remember correctly they also used a Ruger Mini 14 and had a legal exemption to allow the use of a magazine holding more than 5 rounds.  Interesting line of work I suppose if you are into that sort of thing.  Personally, I haven't shot gophers in a few years but semiautomatics such as the Ruger 10-22 are quite suited to the task.  Especially since those can also be exempt from the 5 round magazine rule due to their small caliber rounds.

Sometimes it can also be quite fun to shoot at cans and try to knock down as many as you can as quickly as you can with as few shots as possible.  This sort of recreational firearms activity is easier to do with a semiautomatic firearm, and quite fun too.

edit:  forgot about birds.  There is a reason why you don't see many single or double barrel shotguns in widespread use anymore.  Pump action or semiautomatic shotguns allow you for faster follow up shots agains a flock of birds if you are bird hunting.

Also should mention I am not a hunter myself, so any of my wild game hunting examples are not first hand except for the gopher one.


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