College Tuition
Wed, 2007-05-16 20:45
#1
Sven
College Tuition
Wed, 2007-05-16 20:45
#2
Sven
Local Star Tribune columnist [url=http://www.startribune.com/357/story/1185899.html]Nick Coleman[/url] wrote a column today about the high cost of college tuition and he asked: [b][i]"Anyone making $100,000 is among the top 10 percent of wage earners. And if the top 10 percent can't afford to get their kids a sheepskin, who can?"[/b][/i]
Near the end of his column, he said that in-state tuition at the University of Minnesota is $9,400 per year ([url=http://admissions.tc.umn.edu/costsaid/tuition.html]plus another $9,800 for books, fees, on campus living expenses, and other expenses[/url])
Hells bells. That's a steal.
If a student works a mere 25 hours per week at $8 dollars an hour (and you've got to be nearly brain dead to not be able to find a job that pays more than that--I tutored for $10 an hour as an undergrad 25 years ago), after the microscopic taxes on that income, the student would pay for half of a full year's cost. Then, knock off $2,000 for easily obtainable grants (particularly if you're low income) and you have total debt of $27,400 for a four-year degree.
The monthly payment on that debt over ten years is a little over 300 bucks.
Again, that's a steal. And it makes the Coleman quote above absolutely laughable.
I hadn't looked a college costs in a long time. But, I hear people complaining about schools with tuition of $30,000, $40,000, or more a year (like Carleton College here in Minnesota at $34,000 per year). Yeah, if you want to attend a school like that, you're going to have to pay out some serious coin. But, a place like the University of Minnesota is a great public school (I've got two degrees from the UofM).
[b][i]So, what's the big deal about college costs?[/b][/i] Are the costs wildly different than that in Canada for a comparable public institution?
ETA: Or, go to school for six year, take a lighter credit load, and work an extra ten hours per week and the monthly debt payment after school are only about 190 bucks.
[ 16 May 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
Wed, 2007-05-16 21:08
#3
I'd argue that grants and student assistance are way too difficult for a student to obtain. Sure, if you're low income OSAP will step in and pay your way, only for a few years until they charge you interest and you start making payments. But, the problem with this, is that the amount of money a student recieves is relative to the amount of money that their parents make (at least this was the case four years ago when I entered university.) This means, if a student's parents make decent money, they're not rich by any means, but they make okay money, OSAP generally will not be able to grant the student a loan. BUT this doesn't take into consideration that a family making moderate money doesn't always have enough to share with their children on post secondary education, therefore their out of luck as far as financial support from parents, or government funded loans.
What this leaves is grant programs. Once again, most are reserved for low-income students, thankfully, or else lord knows I wouldn't have gotten through school! But, many other students are left out in the cold. Other grants are reserved for students with high academic standing. Once again, this makes perfect sense, but the problem with this is, many students who have to pay their own way through school have to work off campus. I worked forty hours a week during exams at some points to be able to afford my school and living expenses. Because of this, many students in this position are exhausted, and while maintaining good grades, they might not make the cut for grant programs, at least that's what I found.
Existing funding structures cause a difficult dynamic on campus. College and university campuses offer some really worth-while jobs for students: student government, student newspapers, radio stations, but most of them are volunteer based, or give students a bare minimum pay, meaning they spend many more hours at work than they actually get paid for, or they make considerably less money than they should. The payoff-experience! Campuses are an AMAZING place to build experience, especially for aspiring journlists, politicians, activists etc. etc. etc. BUT, the problem with this, once again, because of the inaccessability of grants, scholarships and loans is that only those who can afford to work these jobs, because of lessened finanical strain, end up in these positions, such as editors of the school newspaper or high powered student political positions. I know this isn't the case for every student, who has ever held one of these positions, but it does put campuses at risk of being run by financially elite students.
Wed, 2007-05-16 22:53
#4
Oh yeah? Well, I had four jobs at 35 hours a week each, and three small children when I was in school full time! If I can do it, everyone can! I win! I win!
Wed, 2007-05-16 23:22
#5
[url=http://thefilter.ca/articles/canada/dragged-down-by-debt/][b]D. Fox gets screwed in Canada[/b][/url]
And, they need boots on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq. Subsidized PSE is an enticement for army recruiters preying on kids from poor families who have no university or college in their town and can't afford several thousand dollars to live away from home. Student loans aren't enough to cover the costs for too many students, and in too many cases, Canadians have simply been denied student loans based on bad credit checks. And bad credit is typically a problem for low income Canadian families.
Someone has to donate their lives to low wage philanthropy and imperialism abroad, and it sure as hell won't be snot-nosed brats from upper middle and upper classy Canadian or American families. And someone has to pay back $20 billion dollars of student loan indebtedness. Quarter to a third of a century worth of indebtedness was once called indentured servitude.
===
[url=http://www.suntimes.com/news/372601,CST-NWS-LOAN06.article][b]Students and Loans:[/b] 'Til death do us part(USA)[/url]
quote:
[b]"Richard and Sheila Friese, with no income, can't pay off their loans so they and son Ryan, 16, may be evicted." [/b]They can't get a car loan, a home mortgage or any other type of loan. They've lost jobs and even spouses over it.
They are so humiliated they don't want any of their friends or family to know.
And for most, there is no way out.They are former students trapped under the weight of student loans. The same vehicle that allowed them to get a college education has left many graduates buried in debt with no reasonable way to climb out.
Some students who never graduate are stuck paying off loans without the earning power of a degree -- an estimated additional $1 million in lifetime earnings.
And some students who finish can't afford the monthly payments. Others lose jobs and can't catch back up. Then they get turned down by employers who increasingly check credit records before hiring. ...
And for additional cost of living comparison, can you tell us how many million Americans can't afford to be sick down there, students and otherwise, Sven ?.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 04:50
#6
quote:
Even after financial aid is included, it takes 31 percent of an average family's income to send a kid to a public college. And if you are dumb enough to let a kid go to "a fantastic college" of the private sort, the average family will need 72 percent of its income to support its Ivy League habit.
Am I the only one who thinks it is somewhat old fashion for the parents to take on the financial burden of sending their kids to college? Easy for me to say, sure, as someone who doesn't have children who I want to see excel, and get into the fantastic college and become the one to cure cancer, but as far as I see it, if kid's start working at sixteen, save half their paycheques, work 25 hours a week while in post-secondary, they will still have loans to pay at the end, but their education is then something they've earned academically and financially.
Many of my peers who have flunked out of school, had to retake classes time after time, slept through class, handed in essays late, are the ones who had a free-ride through school, thus it wasn't their money invested in it, and they somewhat took the education system for granted. VAST STEREOTYPE, I know! But I do think there is value in working your ass off through university, just to get that degree to hang on your wall. But if tuition was slightly lower, grants were more accessible and scholarships were handed out more often, some of the burden would be lessened for hard working students out there.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:01
#7
I'll still be paying off my student loans by the time my son reaches college age. I certainly won't be able to send him to college.
But that's okay, because financing a college degree is easy! He can work 24 hours a day! Walk uphill both ways to school! Sven has already told us how easy it is.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:26
#8
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Perhaps it's time for Sven to realize that he doesn't belong here?
He might be a progressive by American standards (of even this I'm unsure), but he certainly has issues with our views.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:30
#9
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I'll still be paying off my student loans by the time my son reaches college age. I certainly won't be able to send him to college.But that's okay, because financing a college degree is easy! He can work 24 hours a day! Walk uphill both ways to school! Sven has already told us how easy it is.[/b]
Well, looking at the example that I gave you (the U fo M, a large public university), what am I missing?
If people want to work to get a degree, and are willing to work for it, it looks accessible.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:33
#10
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
[b]Perhaps it's time for Sven to realize that he doesn't belong here?He might be a progressive by American standards (of even this I'm unsure), but he certainly has issues with our views.[/b]
What are "our" views? Those of the royal "we"?
In this specific instance, I'm looking at college education costs and it doesn't seem like they are the gigantic mountain that so many make them out to be. I was surprised when I actually looked at the numbers for the University of Minnesota.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:39
#11
Sven
By the way, LTJ, my sig other and I have given several $5,000 scholarships that go to individuals who are single parents, doing well academically but need the money. I am more than happy to help someone who simply doesn't have the time to do everything needed to get through college. But, average Joe and Jane student can work to get an education and it won't cost them an arm and a leg. And it won't kill them.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:40
#12
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Well, looking at the example that I gave you (the U fo M, a large public university), what am I missing?If people want to work to get a degree, and are willing to work for it, it looks accessible.[/b]
I know! It's like I was saying to the kids the other day, I sez, "Kids," sez I, "I don't care if you are being brought up in a homeless shelter. EVERYONE can afford thousands of dollars in tuition! Everyone can work 5 part-time jobs throughout university and still get good grades!" But kids these days, they just don't believe it. They're just lazy, that's their problem!
And you know, it's not like I don't give. Oh yes, I certainly do. Why, just the other day, I gave a few thousand dollars to some nice, upstanding young woman who sang so pretty for her supper. Yes, I did, and it just made me feel all good inside. Yes, if one person gets a few thousand from me, that means EVERYONE can get ahead!
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:45
#13
Sven
Fidel, from the article you posted: "Many of the students awash in debt say that they were blinded by the promise a college degree holds and unprepared to take on high levels of debt at such a young age."
Blinded by the promise or deluded? If you're going to get a degree in A versus a degree in B, it doesn't mean that you're going to get the same pay and opportunity to earn money if degree A is a poli-sci degree and degree B is a civil engineering degree.
People choose the degree they are going to get and then need to think, practically, what is the income I can get from that degree? If a student elects to get a poli-sci degree, a student needs to understand that it may be more difficult to get a well-paying job after graduation than if the student got an accounting degree, for example.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:48
#14
I agree! Everyone can be an accountant or a doctor! Everyone! I think it's just these dumb kids these days, wanting to do something with their lives other than being a banker or a doctor or an engineer. Everyone's good at science and math! Everyone's got a head for business!
I think it's about time these poor kids got it through their heads that the humanities and social sciences are only for the rich to dabble in. If you want to get a college education and you're poor, then you should damn well commit to being a banker! That's the only way to get ahead in this world.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:49
#15
Sven
Com'on, Michelle, like jrose (our resident college student on this thread) said, if you're low income (your homeless shelter example), it's relatively easy to get grants. Add that to working and you have a college degree paid for and no crushing debt burden.
As to five part time jobs? To work 25 hours a week?
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:51
#16
Sven, working 25 hours a week is only feasible if you're in an easy program. If you're taking a full course load and they're not bird courses you probably won't have that much time. If somebody's in a really hard program like music performance, don't expect them to even work 10 hours a week.
There's also a lot of variation in living among people. Some people have to commute 10 to 15 hours a week which really puts an upper bound on their productivity. Other people are living alone for the first time and are not efficient with laundry, cooking and cleaning in the first and/or second year. One person I know has it pretty easy, her parents bought her a $150, 000 condo right next to McGill so she doesn't commute. Plus, since the value of real estate goes up, they'll probably have made munny off her "rent" while she studied. Big advantage being able to afford a mortage rather than simply "losing" 40, 000 to four years of rent.
As for student loans, there are simply a lot of scholarships in the USA, it's my observation they have it better than here. It's really accelerated in the past five years. For example, the Ivy Leagues are now free unless your parents make a very high income. For the middle of the road schools, there are some scholarships. I know four years ago I had a lot of waived tuition offers from American schools just for scoring high on the SAT, some of them were very well known apparently. My friend who did even higher than me, he got a 1580/1600, got even more offers. We both chose McGill though as we were not really ready to leave
Ultimately it depends what province you live in. I feel fortunate to live in Quebec, where they have a flawed though still good. I'm from an extremely low income background but I mabaged to get through 2 years of CEGEP and 4 years of University with only 18k in loans. They'll be interest free until six months after I leave graduate school (another six years). After which the interest rate will be very low and even then the interest will be 40% tax deductible. Students in other provinces though have a legitimite reason to protest if they pay high tuition and don't receive support. They're going to inherit the national debt that allowed baby boomers to live the high life, so they can at least get an affordable education.
I've always had the opinion that financial support should be more available to graduate students and that's how the situation is. Of my friends going to Masters and PhD programs, they all have their tuition waived with a usually generous stipend to live on. People with FQRNTs and NSERCs probably have the best situation. I suppose in a society of infinite money this would be true for undergraduates as well.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:52
#17
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I agree! Everyone can be an accountant or a doctor![/b]
Actually, for a lot of people, I would recommend trade school. There are a lot of great opportunities there.
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:56
#18
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]Sven, working 25 hours a week is only feasible if you're in an easy program.[/b]
Bullshit. My sig other is a perfect example. She worked full time as a paralegal at a law firm (which meant she was working a [b][i]minimum[/i][/b] of 40 hours per week) [b][i]and[/i][/b] she went to law school at night just under a full time rate (she graduated in three years and one semester, not three years like a true full-time student).
But, then, you might consider law school "an easy program".
Thu, 2007-05-17 05:56
#19
I'm a university student too. I was a full-time university student for the first two and a half years I was babbling.
But the young kids these days, they'll never believe it. They'll never believe that you can get your whole education and all your living expenses paid for by a bunch of scholarships and a part-time job at Denny's. They'll never believe that they can get good marks in school when they've stayed up half the night waiting tables. No, they sure won't. I knew at least one person out of the 500 in my program who did that! If she can do it, everyone can! But the kids these days, they won't believe it.
No sirree. They sure won't. That's the problem with young kids nowadays. Too lazy to work 18 hour days of studying and part-time jobs to get themselves through university! They refuse to believe that there are millions of dollars worth of scholarships out there just waiting for you to write and say "Please may I?" They have this stupid idea that you have to get top marks in order to get scholarships, and they refuse to believe they can get top marks after they've just pulled an 8 hour shift at their job the day before their exam.
Thu, 2007-05-17 06:00
#20
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b][i]So, what's the big deal about college costs?[/b][/i] Are the costs wildly different than that in Canada for a comparable public institution?
[url=http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2007/02/some_fac... facts about tuition and access to post-secondary education.[/url]
Thu, 2007-05-17 06:02
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Bullshit. My sig other is a perfect example. She worked full time as a paralegal at a law firm (which meant she was working a [b][i]minimum[/i][/b] of 40 hours per week) [b][i]and[/i][/b] she went to law school at night just under a full time rate (she graduated in three years and one semester, not three years like a true full-time student).
But, then, you might consider law school "an easy program".[/b]
I disagree completely.
So let's say she did 40 hours a week as a paralegal.
Let's add 15 hours a week due to commuting.
Let's add 15 hours a week due to class time.
Let's add 30 hours a week outside of class time to review the material learnt in class (that's the standard, 2 hours outside of class for every hour in class).
That's 100 hours a week.
That leaves 68 hours for sleeping, cooking, cleaning, taking showers, going to the bathroom, eating, socializing, and relaxing.
Could it be there's another factor involved that amde things easier?
Thu, 2007-05-17 06:10
#22
In a progreesive society, there should be no tuition fees for pse.
Thu, 2007-05-17 06:42
#23
quote:
Sven, working 25 hours a week is only feasible if you're in an easy program. If you're taking a full course load and they're not bird courses you probably won't have that much time. If somebody's in a really hard program like music performance, don't expect them to even work 10 hours a week.
It's tough, really really tough. Do-able in some cases I think, but tough. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I would have considered my program a difficult one. Certainly not easy in any respect. It was very specialized, and meant lugging around camera equiptment for hours on a bus, early morning interviews, unpredictable hours, and it had very high standards to remain in the program. This of course added extra pressure. When I said it was relatively easy to get grants and scholarships when you're low income, I meant very low income. If your parents are making 50,000 a year, good luck getting a loan! I just happened to enter university right after my dad had lost his job, so OSAP was very good to me.
But, you do what you have to do, and I ended up working four or five days a week, with a full course load. You learn to live on four hours of sleep a night for four years! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
But, I worked all these hours, and finished my schooling on time, but despite this, I still walked away with $25,000 in debt. Much of this is because I decided to leave my smaller city, for a larger city to get an education. Had I stayed at home, it would be far less. For me, this would have been an option, but not everybody has this same situation. Not everybody lives in urban centres close to a good university, so this is another factor that makes accessibility different.
To me, I think if you work that many hours, plus full-time in the summer, you should be able to afford to go to school. Post-Secondary education should NOT be a luxury. Once again, I'm lucky, because I had the option to move home, which I've done, so I can focus on knocking down my loans. Not everybody has this fortunate situation.
When I was trying to choose to go to school, and I was from a family who had just suffered a lay-off, I had friend's parents telling me that given my situation, I should just resort to the fact that I should go to a local college and get a diploma in journalism. This would have meant not moving to Ottawa, and getting the degree that I had my heart set on. But financially it would have kept me out of debt. As far as I see it, this makes education a luxury, which it shouldn't be.
At more than $25,000, and $400 per month, if my simple math serves me right, I can expect to pay off my loan in about 65 months. This is hoping that I don't have any financial difficulty headed my way, or any other reason I might have to temporarily default my payments. So, this means, by the time I'm 30 I should ALMOST have my loans paid off. Makes it very difficult for someone starting out to even think about buying a car or a house any time soon.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:05
#24
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]It's tough, really really tough. Do-able in some cases I think, but tough. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I would have considered my program a difficult one. Certainly not easy in any respect. It was very specialized, and meant lugging around camera equiptment for hours on a bus, early morning interviews, unpredictable hours, and it had very high standards to remain in the program. This of course added extra pressure. When I said it was relatively easy to get grants and scholarships when you're low income, I meant very low income. If your parents are making 50,000 a year, good luck getting a loan! I just happened to enter university right after my dad had lost his job, so OSAP was very good to me.
But, you do what you have to do, and I ended up working four or five days a week, with a full course load. You learn to live on four hours of sleep a night for four years! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
[/b]
Well, good work Jrose, really impressive, how did you manage?
I don't think it's universally doable though. 4 hours of sleep a night can be very bad for you, and a lot of people wouldn't manage. I know some who can be very productive going 48 hours without sleep. Others need at least 7 hours a night. Some need 9 hours. The other flexi factors is that you were actually able to find a good job. If you had gone to school in a period of higher unemployment, you might not have been able to find one given your hourly restrictions due to your courses (unless you're willing to skip class).
I really wouldn't recommend a full course load and full work load to the average university student.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:06
#25
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
[b]In a progreesive society, there should be no tuition fees for pse.[/b]
But tuition fees aren't the killer. It's living expenses for 8 months a year that are the obstacle. I wouldn't support free tuition fees, anyway. Generally, it's the elite that go to university. If we have the tax dollars to pay for their education, we should use them instead on housing the homeless.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:33
#26
quote:
I really wouldn't recommend a full course load and full work load to the average university student.
True enough. And I think if I didn't have to, my marks would have been better, if I had more hours to sleep and more time to spend on homework. Don't get me wrong, I managed good marks, but if I had the extra time, I would have had the higher marks which would have made me eligible for more grants and scholarships, so it's not an ideal situation for anyone.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:39
#27
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]I disagree completely.So let's say she did 40 hours a week as a paralegal.
Let's add 15 hours a week due to commuting.
Let's add 15 hours a week due to class time.
Let's add 30 hours a week outside of class time to review the material learnt in class (that's the standard, 2 hours outside of class for every hour in class).That's 100 hours a week.
That leaves 68 hours for sleeping, cooking, cleaning, taking showers, going to the bathroom, eating, socializing, and relaxing. [/b]
You’re pretty close. Although, the class time is maybe a little high and the study time may be a little low.
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]Could it be there's another factor involved that amde things easier?[/b]
Actually, no. She had an aging father 2.5 hours north of here and she went up to help him every other weekend. So, it was more difficult than I had described.
What “other factor” were you thinking of that might have made this easier for her?
It was not easy. But, it is also [b][i]extremely unusual[/b][/i] in terms of the amount of work that she had to do in order to accomplish that, relative to 99% of students.
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Walk uphill both ways to school![/b]
You’ve got the wrong generation, Michelle. That was the generation that [b][i]really[/b][/i] worked hard was the WWII/Depression-era generation. Our generation has it easy.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:47
#28
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Phrillie:
[b]If we have the tax dollars to pay for their education, we should use them instead on housing the homeless.[/b]
I totally agree with this. Put money where there is a real [b][i]need[/b][/i]. I [b][i]want[/b][/i] society to help the indigent.
But, if you can work, you can go to school. The only way I am able to earn the money that I earn is through years of hard work. I don't mind paying taxes for those who need it. But, I do mind paying taxes for those not willing to work as hard as I do.
Thu, 2007-05-17 07:55
#29
quote:
But, if you can work, you can go to school.
That isn't true! My boyfriend is one semester away from his degree from the Ontario College of Art and Design. He's had to take a leave because he cannot afford to go back. He's not eligible for OSAP, because his parents make too much, though they don't give him a cent, plus with OCAD being the only school in near distance to choose from, he had no choice but to live in the city, unless he wants to commute two hours per day. So, without loans, inability to afford to live alone in downtown T.O, he has made the choice to put it on hold, to move back in with his parents to continue to save up. Plus, in a program such as his, where supply costs are huge, who knows how long this will take. OSAP calculates based on a parent's income, which often does not reflect a student's need, depending on their relationship with their family, or what they are willing to donate to their education. I THINK this might have changed recently, to a certain point, but I'm not as educated on OSAP as I was a few years ago. If anybody knows the current system I'd be curious to know.
But he is WILLING to work, that isn't the issue. It's just a case of his realization that he needs to work full time for awhile before even being able to think of re-entering the school system. It's a shame really. He's a smart, and talented guy!
Thu, 2007-05-17 08:19
#30
With the abolition of tuition fees and a needs based grant system, the elite wouldn't be the only ones going to pse.
Anecdotally, Ms. C. and I both come from working class families and achieved at advanced degrees at university.
Thu, 2007-05-17 08:54
#31
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
[b]With the abolition of tuition fees and a needs based grant system, the elite wouldn't be the only ones going to pse.[/b]
I think that whether or not tuition should be funded on a needs-based grant system is the fundamental question.
Government should be there for people who [b][i]need[/b][/i] the help. But, if a person can work and take on a manageable amount of debt, and maybe extend the time it takes to get a degree, then why should that person expect another person is working hard to fund that education because the student doesn’t want to work as hard as she or he could to get the degree?
Most people who make significant incomes (and who pay the bulk of taxes) have to work incredibly hard and long hours. A person expecting support from the government should be willing to work just as hard. If not, then one must, necessarily, be arguing for penalizing hard work.
As far as only “the elite” going to college, if you look at the students at our large local public university (University of Minnesota), the vast majority are from middle class families (not “elite”). The “elite” go to Carlton or Notre Dame or wherever and pay ridiculous tuition bills for an education that is not worth the high incremental cost.
Thu, 2007-05-17 09:38
#32
Let's talk Canada.
I'm advocating the abolition of tuition fees for publicly funded instituitions and a needs based grant system for other expenses.
The US is a whole other kettle of fish.
The countries have fundamentally different zeitgeist.
Thu, 2007-05-17 09:58
#33
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
[b]Let's talk Canada.[/b]
UofM was just an example.
What are tuition rates at comparable large public universities in Canada?
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:06
#34
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
[b]With the abolition of tuition fees and a needs based grant system, the elite wouldn't be the only ones going to pse.[/b]
Grants that would cover 8 months' worth of living expenses plus transportation and textbooks? What do you think that would cost? Do you think that's realistic while people live on the street?
quote:
[b]Anecdotally, Ms. C. and I both come from working class families and achieved at advanced degrees at university.[/b]
Like, I said, generally it's the top tiers that get the opportunity. Lots of exceptions to that, of course.
Lastly, Sven, the "middle class" are part of the elite, at least it seems that way to working class people.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:08
#35
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
quote:
What are tuition rates at comparable large public universities in Canada?
[i]~ yawn ~[/i]
We [b]could[/b] do your research for you, Sven. Or we could ignore you, as you seem incapable of understanding that this forum serves a different country than your own, with differing issues.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:11
#36
quote:
quote:
Grants that would cover 8 months' worth of living expenses plus transportation and textbooks? What do you think that would cost? Do you think that's realistic while people live on the street?
While more funding is definitely crucial to pse, it would be a monumental task for any government to eliminate fees. I honestly think that paying some sort of expense helps students not to take their pse for granted. It isn't necessarily a right of passage, or does not offer a sense of entitlement, that I think would exist if it was not fee-based.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:12
#37
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Phrillie:
[b]Lastly, Sven, the "middle class" are part of the elite, at least it seems that way to working class people.[/b]
Are teachers "working class people"? I think so. My pa was a school teacher and we were middle class. I think there's more overlap than not between "working class" and "middle class". 'Course, that depends on how one defines those "classes". But, I've tried to get definitions like that here before (what is "rich"?) and it's like pulling teeth!
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:15
#38
Why do we charge tuition fees for pse and not elementary and secondary education? I think all should be paid for out of the public purse.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:16
#39
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
[b]We [b]could[/b] do your research for you, Sven. Or we could ignore you.[/b]
Again, the royal "we"? Why don't [i]you[/i] just follow the last sentence in your quote above and call it a day?
[i]~ yawn ~[/i]
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:21
#40
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Are teachers "working class people"?[/b]
Nope, not when senior salaries hover around $70K.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:23
#41
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Phrillie:
[b]Nope, not when senior salaries hover around $70K.[/b]
What about a plumber who makes $60,000?
What about a new teacher who makes $25,000?
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:24
#42
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
[b]Why do we charge tuition fees for pse and not elementary and secondary education? I think all should be paid for out of the public purse.[/b]
Why stop at a Bachelor's degree? Why not pay for unlimited university studies, then? Doctorate, post-doctorate, as many as you want.
Because it's not a basic human right like housing and health care. We can't afford perks until we've got the basics covered.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:29
#43
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]What about a plumber who makes $60,000?What about a new teacher who makes $25,000?[/b]
You make a good point, Sven. I think of "working class" has being doomed to earn a moderate salary for eternity -- secretaries spring to mind, service industry, etc. $60K is an awfully good salary. Perhaps "working class" as a description doesn't work. The hypothetical new teacher might be a newcomer to the middle class but he/she will get there eventually.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:30
#44
Why is pse more of a perk than what education is currently paid for?
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:31
#45
quote:
Why stop at a Bachelor's degree? Why not pay for unlimited university studies, then? Doctorate, post-doctorate, as many as you want.
That's a really great point, because really, think of how productive the world would be, if we all had our studies paid for, infinitely. I'd be in school forever! Sure, a million really great studies would be done at universities, and we'd all be enlightened and be able to communicate in brilliant discourse, but geez, there are a lot of people that would stay in school as long as the government would support them, that's for sure!
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:31
#46
What exactly is the point of this thread?
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:36
#47
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]UofM was just an example.
What are tuition rates at comparable large public universities in Canada?[/b]
Alright Sven. Let me tell you what I'm facing as a full-time student in Alberta.
From the time I go back to the U of A in September to when I leave in April, I will have to spend about $12,500 on tuition, books*, housing, food and other expenses.
I'm probably going to earn about 40% of that amount over the summer at my job, and fortunately I'll be living with my parents during that time.
I get a $1000 bursary every year.
I'm left with about a $5500 annual debt from now until I'm finished my degree, if I don't take a job over the school year. And I can't do that, I need to get a 3.0 GPA just to get into the graduate program I need to get the Meterology degree I want.
I'll have my degree with about... $23,000 of student loans. Provided I finish my degree by 2010. Not a guarantee.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:40
#48
Piece of cake, according to Sven. After all, he thinks nearly $20,000 a year for an in-state student at a public university is a "steal."
The only stealing that's going on is as a result of the racket that's called higher education these days. There's absolutely no reason for tuition to be as expensive as it is. What they really could use is a federal anti-trust lawsuit.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: josh ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:49
#49
Quality of education is directly linked to tuition fees, obviously, which is further outlined in[url=http://www.ousa.on.ca/uploaded_files/pdf_files/Undercurrent/EducatedSolu... Solutions. [/url]
One article goes into depth about this.
quote:
Quality is increasingly a topic of discussion.
Tuition has increased and private funding has increased as governmental funding has been unable to meet the growing
needs of universities with rising student populations. Additionally, there is a change in the perceptions of the role for higher education,
moving from a social institution to something closer to an industry or corporation.
Pressure to demonstrate accountability
has increased, and external bodies, like Maclean’s magazine, have begun to publish their own measures of quality.
‘Quality assurance’, ‘quality assessment’ and ‘accountability’ are all gaining more and more attention in articles, conferences and discussions on higher education policy. Yet, as I listen to these discussions, it seems at times that ‘education’ is being forgotten.
Instead, other characteristics of institutions
are being measured, including the amount of research funding, numbers of articles published, size of student population
and even the quality of sports facilities. While these things are important, it is critical
that the discussion of education is not buried in the process.
I'm not suggesting this publication because I'm involved in it, but because it outlines a lot of important issues facing students, policy makers and the government, including accessibility and tuition. There are so many issues facing post secondary education, and we've barely scratched the surface.
Thu, 2007-05-17 10:49
#50
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]People choose the degree they are going to get and then need to think, practically, what is the income I can get from that degree? If a student elects to get a poli-sci degree, a student needs to understand that it may be more difficult to get a well-paying job after graduation than if the student got an accounting degree, for example.[/b]
That sounds really complicated, Sven, a juggernaut of decisions for young people to have to make so early in life. I think the whole issue is confusing on purpose to tell you the truth. Kids in some rich countries just go to school and don't have to worry about having enough money for text books, rent or dealing with debt service payments on loans and credit cards at the same they are trying to earn decent grades. It's difficult to concentrate on the task at hand after pulling a McNight shift, imo. All of this is no sweat for whiz kids like you though. I'm impressed.
They once said they same thing in Victorian era England, Sven. Orphans around England were encouraged to get an education, but then they said that education should be of sufficiency of excellency that the poor little buggers should devote their lives to making rich people richer ie. industrialists and capitalists alike. The kiddies were made to memorize facts and figures and times tables and could recall tidbits about the empire on demand. There was no education for the sake of having both sides of the coin and learning how to learn.
Appreciation for art and architecture and doctoring and lawyering - those were privileges and positions of employment for upstanding Londoners!. And they said the same thing about orphans reaching for the brass ring then, that they could always work their way up the ladder of success. It wasn't mentioned often that orphan's had few options for employment but to sell sandwiches or themselves in the streets, or swim for lumps of coal dropped from barges in the Thames. They learned not to want for no educashun.
What about poor little Jessica Lynch, Sven?. She just wanted to become an elementary school teacher. Was it really worth having her legs shot up for imperialism ?. There was a young American man on CBC News a few months ago who told about being in Iraq and the arguments he had with his family about signing up. He said his family had a difficult time persuading him against it because he had no health insurance and few job prospects otherwise. Sure, there are lots and lots of McJobs for young people to choose from but not many success stories. I understand that these basic necessities and more are provided instantly by signing on a dotted line in your country. Is that true do you think ?. Do imperialists really believe in socialism when it's convenient for their raw ambitions abroad ?.
[url=http://conservativenannystate.org/cns.html#2][b]Doctors and Dishwashers[/b] Dean Baker[/url]
quote:
While doctors, lawyers, and accountants don't pull down the same money as corporate CEOs or the Bill Gates types, their success is hugely important in sustaining the conservative nanny state. If the only people doing well in the current economy were a tiny strata of super-rich corporate heads and high-tech entrepreneurs, there would be little political support for sustaining the system. Since the list of winners also includes the most educated segment of society, it creates a much more sustainable system. In addition to being a much broader segment of the population (5-10 percent as opposed to 0.5 percent), this group of highly educated workers includes the people who write news stories and editorial columns, teach college classes, and shape much of what passes for political debate in the country. The fact that these people benefit from the conservative nanny state vastly strengthens its hold.
[ 17 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-05-17 11:26
#51
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
[b]What exactly is the point of this thread?[/b]
josh, the point of this thread is for everyone with university degrees to brag about the hardships they had to endure to get them, and then support the idea of making university more and more expensive so that all those rotten kids nowadays who have it so easy can learn what it REALLY feels like to have to work for something.
But the kids these days, they just won't believe you even if you tell them how fortunate they are to have a mortgage and no house when they're done university. No sirree. I tell you, things were different in MY day. We ate dust for supper every night, worked three jobs, and took five courses per semester. And we LIKED it!