College Tuition II
Fri, 2007-07-13 06:57
#1
Sven
College Tuition II
Fri, 2007-07-13 06:57
#2
Sven
Continued from [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=000320]h......
$20,000 in debt at 6% interest over ten years is only $222 per month.
And, if a student works to earn merely half of their tuition ($10,000 over four years)—that’s having to earn an extra whopping $48 a week during the time they are in school—then, their post-graduation debt payments are a mere $111 per month (or a mere $25 a week!!!).
Yeah, I can see how that’s hard to handle.
[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:13
#3
I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question. As students, where do our fees go? I don't know if it has been brought up in the previous thread (I'm at work, I only have enough time to slack off for a few minutes, not to read the whole thing [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] )
[url=http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/research/factsheets/factsheet-tuitio... would argue that we're paying more, and receiving less.[/url]
I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.
This works on a larger scale, where we are helping to pay the wages of administration staff, who is all too unwilling to help students, at least in my experiences, due to understaffing (and no, that's not me making an arguement for raising fees even MORE to hire more staff) to a smaller scale, where students are forced to pay a large sum of money to use services that are useless to some students (ie. The gym), yet they give students the option to opt out of other services (theatre, the university newspaper.) At Carleton, students were given the option to get their once-manditory donation to student run organizations, forcing many of them to downsize, and even threaten closure, all because of .25 or a $1.
[url=http://www.opirg-carleton.org/news/news.php?action=printable&showall]VOTE 'YES'; SAVE STUDENT GROUPS![/url]
Sure, students should have a right to opt-out of student run groups if they don't believe in them. But, if this is so, why must we pay hundreds of dollars in gym fees? Or to support service staff who don't answer emails, or return phone calls. $5,000 and the debt accumulated isn't THAT much, for SOME people, you're right. But I'd love to see a breakdown, which unfortunately I can't find, of how many of these fees are pointless and inconsequential to my education.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:15
#4
Sven
As a kid, I saved $7,500 for college (I started college 27 years ago). How much easier would it be for a kid today to earn $7,500 for college in today's dollars? And, it wasn't like I was slaving away to earn $7,500. I played three sports, played in the band, was a good student (i.e., I had plenty of time to study), and I goofed off a lot. It wasn't that big of a deal.
But, let's say that a kid can only sock away $2,500, that drops the tuition need to $17,500. Earn $10,000 for tuition while in school and you're left with $7,500 in debt. Or, a whooping $83 in monthly debt payments (or an insurmountable $19 a week).
God. I don't know how that would even be [i]possible[/i] to manage!!
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:25
#5
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question.[/b]
I’ll get to your question in a second but there is one word I’d change in that last sentence: “SOME” to “MOST”. Now, back to your question:
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]As students, where do our fees go?[snip]
I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.[/b]
And that’s a great question. For some mysterious reason that I can’t figure out, the increase in the cost of college over the last two or three decades has far outstripped the general inflation rate.
As with anything, students should get a good value for their dollar.
That all being said, at $5,000 per year, the extra earning potential that college grads get over non-college grads makes it a no-brainer decision, economically—and, even more importantly, for personal growth and development.
Now, to step back for a moment, there are people who have a need for assistance (often substantial assistance). But, the key word there is “need”.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:27
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
But, let's say that a kid can only sock away $2,500, that drops the tuition need to $17,500. Earn $10,000 for tuition while in school and you're left with $7,500 in debt. Or, a whooping $83 in monthly debt payments (or an insurmountable $19 a week).God. I don't know how that would even be [i]possible[/i] to manage!![/b]
Pardon me? I'd be happy if [i]I[/i] could sock away $2500. How many "kids" are going to be able to do this here in Canada? Where are they living and what are they doing, what are they being paid, to make this a "piece of cake", let alone $7500?
And how do you earn $10,000 while you're in school full time? Your "bootstrap" math here isn't realistic.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:27
#7
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I understand what you're saying Sven, but I also think there is a further issue here. Sure, $5,000 can be doable for SOME students, but it begs another question. As students, where do our fees go? I don't know if it has been brought up in the previous thread (I'm at work, I only have enough time to slack off for a few minutes, not to read the whole thing [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] )[url=http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/research/factsheets/factsheet-tuitio... would argue that we're paying more, and receiving less.[/url]
I'd have no qualms about spending tuition money if I felt I was getting my money's worth. But, I wonder if Canadian post-secondary students are getting what they deserve in return.
This works on a larger scale, where we are helping to pay the wages of administration staff, who is all too unwilling to help students, at least in my experiences, due to understaffing (and no, that's not me making an arguement for raising fees even MORE to hire more staff) to a smaller scale, where students are forced to pay a large sum of money to use services that are useless to some students (ie. The gym), yet they give students the option to opt out of other services (theatre, the university newspaper.) At Carleton, students were given the option to get their once-manditory donation to student run organizations, forcing many of them to downsize, and even threaten closure, all because of .25 or a $1.
[url=http://www.opirg-carleton.org/news/news.php?action=printable&showall]VOTE 'YES'; SAVE STUDENT GROUPS![/url]
Sure, students should have a right to opt-out of student run groups if they don't believe in them. But, if this is so, why must we pay hundreds of dollars in gym fees? Or to support service staff who don't answer emails, or return phone calls. $5,000 and the debt accumulated isn't THAT much, for SOME people, you're right. But I'd love to see a breakdown, which unfortunately I can't find, of how many of these fees are pointless and inconsequential to my education.[/b]
I can only speak of my experience at McGill.
The gym fees are possibly the second most important student service. The most important would be the student services building. IIRC, all students pay 200$/semester for the student services building. That's just from a seperate fee, I'm sure they get more funding than that. There they have the student financial aid office, the first year office, dentistry, the health clinic, the sex shop, the sexual assault center, and the mental health office. I think that for services of critical importance such as a sexual assault center or a gym, it makes sense for everyone to pay, even if many people will never use such services. It helps the community as a whole and is mandatory to the survival of the community. The theatre is a valid service but is not a necessary service. Personally, I choose to pay for all services where I have the option. Those 0.25$ do not make a difference in my standard of living, but collectively, they improve campus. I know a lot of my friends were angry this past semester because there was a referendum on spending a dollar per student in a new fee to support this group called "midnight kitchen". They serve cheap vegan food. I thought that was a good idea.
As for administration, there are many who complain here that the mcgill admin is unsympathetic to students, that they can't find a good advisor, et cetera. In my personal experience, 90% were good people. It's a giant bureaucracy so it's about who you speak to and how.
Now with respect to total tuition, most undergraduate expenses are covered by the provinces. The tuition fees are a small fraction usually. Just the cost of the professors' salaries, the rooms, the lighting, the computer faciltiies, and the libraries should cost way more than the tuition.
[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:33
#8
quote:
Personally, I choose to pay for all services where I have the option. Those 0.25$ do not make a difference in my standard of living, but collectively, they improve campus.
I always did too. I understand that the gym is essential to some people. But theatre is essential to some people too. The student newspaper is essential to some people too. So are Equity Services and the Womyn's Centre.
These are the types of places that suffer, because students scramble to get their few bucks back. I understand some reasoning behind making them optional (hmmm...if the student newspaper was constantly publishing what I would consider hate speech of some sort, I wouldn't want to financially support them with my $0.25). But why do the Men's Hockey Team, or Football Team, have more of a right to their passion than the dedicated students who run a small theatre company for students, or who encourage discourse through the school newspaper? Because more people tune in for University sports? Maybe theres more income (ie. ad revenue for sponsoring teams, maybe) but it shouldn't matter.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:36
#9
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]Pardon me? I'd be happy if [i]I[/i] could sock away $2500. How many "kids" are going to be able to do this here in Canada? Where are they living and what are they doing, what are they being paid, to make this a "piece of cake", let alone $7500? [/b]
Let’s see. I started carrying newspapers in fifth grade (did that through graduation). I mowed lawns for several summers. I worked as a student janitor during a couple of school years and did low-level school maintenance work a couple of summers (painting and that kind of thing). I rogued sunflower fields for part of a summer. I painted our hockey rink working for the municipality another summer (inside and out). That’s means I had to save $20 a week over seven years (that was between 27 and 34 years ago). To save $2,500 over seven years today means [b][i]saving less than seven bucks a week[/b][/i]—which is no doubt a crushing burden.
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]And how do you earn $10,000 while you're in school full time? Your "bootstrap" math here isn't realistic.[/b]
Well, that’s $2,500 per year, or $48 per week. Can a college student find a job paying $8 an hour? That’s six hours a week. Again, another crushing burden.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:45
#10
quote:
Let’s see. I started carrying newspapers in fifth grade (did that through graduation). I mowed lawns for several summers. I worked as a student janitor during a couple of school years and did low-level school maintenance work a couple of summers (painting and that kind of thing). I rogued sunflower fields for part of a summer. I painted our hockey rink working for the municipality another summer (inside and out). That’s means I had to save $20 a week over seven years (that was between 27 and 34 years ago). To save $2,500 over seven years today means saving less than seven bucks a week—which is no doubt a crushing burden.
This all really bothers me. I find it oppressive and exclusionary.
1) I think that's great that you were able to do what you did, Sven.
2) I tend to think of the more extreme cases, where these odd jobs are not an option for people. Students with disabilities, international students, youth who are taking care of ill parents, have learning disabilities, or financial burdens beyond that of the average teen or young twenty-something (living on their own do to familial situations, rent, food costs, taking care of others in their family who might have medical costs, or addictions). Not everyone as you corrected me above to say can do this. SOME, sure, MOST, maybe, but I would still beg to differ.
There are more students out there who want to go to school, but have to deal with some of the above problems and many more, than there are scholarships to go around. PLUS, students in such financial straits A) might not have the time to find a job, but also B) Might not have the time to excel in school well enough to achieve a scholarship.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:46
#11
Sven
I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but it’s damned near impossible to find kids today willing to mow lawns (as an example). One of my sig other’s 16-year old nephews and a buddy started a lawn service (thankfully) so we hired him. We pay him $30 (which is his going rate) and it takes him an hour and a half to mow and trim our lawn. He’s so busy with work that he has to turn down jobs. So, let’s do some math:
Let’s say that he and his buddy can each do three lawns a day like that. That’s $90 for the day (each). Let’s say his gas for the mower cost him about $5 (and that’s high). So, he’s effectively clearing about $85 per day or $425 per week (or, for a twenty week mowing season, that’s $8,500).
No, it won’t take too long to save $5,000 bucks as a kid for college.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:50
#12
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]This all really bothers me. I find it oppressive and exclusionary.1) I think that's great that you were able to do what you did, Sven.
2) I tend to think of the more extreme cases, where these odd jobs are not an option for people. Students with disabilities, international students, youth who are taking care of ill parents, have learning disabilities, or financial burdens beyond that of the average teen or young twenty-something (living on their own do to familial situations, rent, food costs, taking care of others in their family who might have medical costs, or addictions). Not everyone as you corrected me above to say can do this. SOME, sure, MOST, maybe, but I would still beg to differ.
There are more students out there who want to go to school, but have to deal with some of the above problems and many more, than there are scholarships to go around. PLUS, students in such financial straits A) might not have the time to find a job, but also B) Might not have the time to excel in school well enough to achieve a scholarship.[/b]
So, you tend to look at the “extreme cases”. I do, too. And in those instances, where a student has a real [b][i]need[/b][/i], then given them help. MOST kids don’t have that [b][i]need[/b][/i].
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:52
#13
It's an education issue too though. I had a high school job, at $8.00 an hour, about 12 hours per week. At that point I had all the time in the world. Had a school counsellor, or a financial advisor of some sort been accessible (in retrospect I should have known to go to one on my own accord, but you don't think of these things at 16) I would have been more prepared. Saved more. Been in less debt now. Worked more hours. These people didn't seem accessible in my school system and my high school did a very poor job of teaching the realities of financing.
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:54
#14
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but it’s damned near impossible to find kids today willing to mow lawns (as an example). One of my sig other’s 16-year old nephews and a buddy started a lawn service (thankfully) so we hired him. We pay him $30 (which is his going rate) and it takes him an hour and a half to mow and trim our lawn. He’s so busy with work that he has to turn down jobs. So, let’s do some math:Let’s say that he and his buddy can each do three lawns a day like that. That’s $90 for the day (each). Let’s say his gas for the mower cost him about $5 (and that’s high). So, he’s effectively clearing about $85 per day or $425 per week (or, for a twenty week mowing season, that’s $8,500).
No, it won’t take too long to save $5,000 bucks as a kid for college.[/b]
That's really super, Sven. I think I'll encourage [i]all[/i] the kids in your area to do exactly that. Will your nephew still be able to make what he makes, with everyone offering lawnmowing services? Are there that many lawns to mow? Think maybe the going rate would go down?
I think the main thrust of your argument really is: "kids are so lazy these days".
Fri, 2007-07-13 07:58
#15
quote:
So, you tend to look at the “extreme cases”. I do, too. And in those instances, where a student has a real need, then given them help. MOST kids don’t have that need.
Well then, there aren't enough programs out there for these youth. Sure, some of these cases might be extreme, but all of them aren't completely rare.
Especially in the case of hidden disabilities. A teen who struggles with reading comprehension, writing, grammar skills, who takes a day to do their homework, where another student might take an hour, might not realize his/her setbacks. There might not be a set diagnosis, putting him/her eligible for a particular scholarship. There are thousands of people out there struggling, not just a few small cases. There aren't thousands of scholarships also available.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:04
#16
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]It's an education issue too though.[/b]
I'm not so sure is so much an "educational issue" as a "societal issue". Kids are no longer taught, at home, the value of hard work and saving. My dad grew up in the Depression where there was real [b][i]need[/b][/i], like in today’s Canada and America. He was a great example to me and my three siblings.
Those understandings have been lost to far too many in society today.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:05
#17
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]I think the main thrust of your argument really is: "kids are so lazy these days".[/b]
A lot of them are. Well put.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:08
#18
Actually, I don't think it's about "extreme" cases at all. I think Sven had the good fortune of being able to live at home with his parents or another caregiver, not having to pay rent or contribute financially to the household in any way, and apparently had few chores to do since he had all this time to work for his own gain and play sports.
quote:
Let’s see. I started carrying newspapers in fifth grade (did that through graduation).
to pay for college! wow!
quote:
I mowed lawns for several summers. I worked as a student janitor during a couple of school years and did low-level school maintenance work a couple of summers (painting and that kind of thing). I rogued sunflower fields for part of a summer. I painted our hockey rink working for the municipality another summer (inside and out).
Working for the municipality. that must have been pretty good pay. Could absolutely EVERYONE in your area get the same job for the same pay? What a rich municipality you lived in!
quote:
That’s means I had to save $20 a week over seven years (that was between 27 and 34 years ago). To save $2,500 over seven years today means saving less than seven bucks a week—which is no doubt a crushing burden.
And $2500 pays your tuition, maybe some books, for a single year.
What's your point?
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:10
#19
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]I'm not so sure is so much an "educational issue" as a "societal issue". Kids are no longer taught, at home, the value of hard work and saving. My dad grew up in the Depression where there was real [b][i]need[/b][/i], like in today’s Canada and America. He was a great example to me and my three siblings.
Those understandings have been lost to far too many in society today.[/b]
yup. I thought so.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:10
#20
Not everybody has parents who are able to educate them on issues such as debt, or education finance, not being in the best positions regarding these themselves.
I'm going to quote [url=http://www.ousa.on.ca/uploaded_files/pdf_files/Undercurrent/EducatedSolu... article, [/url] not because I wrote it ( [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) but because I think it sheds some light on the additional costs that students with disabilities face, that are not always covered by the school system, while at the same time those with both physical and invisible disabilities MIGHT not be able to work like their peers.
quote:
Approximately 10 per cent of students enrolled in post-secondary education have a form of a physical or learning disability, according to the National Educational Association
of Disabled Students (NEADS), making it crucial that there are no barriers stopping potential students from enrolling.“That funding needs to trickle down to support students and services,” says Smith. Without this support, thousands of disabled students may be denied access to university, simply because they cannot cover the costs. Many disabled students must incur financial burdens that other students may not. For example, the price of tutors, technological equipment and medical supplies would be unfathomable for most students, but many students with disabilities find it difficult to work while going to school.
“They need to have access to enhanced textbooks, technology and software,” says Smith, who says that while university centres are doing their best to provide this support, more funding is needed.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:11
#21
quote:
Actually, I don't think it's about "extreme" cases at all. I think Sven had the good fortune of being able to live at home with his parents or another caregiver, not having to pay rent or contribute financially to the household in any way, and apparently had few chores to do since he had all this time to work for his own gain and play sports.
Exactly! Thank you! I know extreme was a wrong term, and you're very right.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:14
#22
Just a question, Sven: were girls mowing lawns, working for the municipality and roguing sunflower fields in your day? Were kids from the poor side of town doing this? If they weren't, what great, easily-found jobs were [i]they[/i] doing to earn [i]their[/i] college tuition?
Or were these just the "extreme" cases in your town? Or maybe they were "lazy"?
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:18
#23
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Fidel, after that long-winded tirade against everything from "daddy's credit card" to George Bush, do you think that $5,000 in annual undergraduate tuition is outrageous?
Of course you do.[/b]
You have no idea, do you. Not every kid lives in a city that has a university. For out of town kids, they only [i]wish[/i] it was that much. Even in Canada, out of town kids are looking at borrowing $15 to $18, 000 bucks for tuition, books, and living expenses. $5 thousand bucks? What's that?. So long ma, so long pa. Sweet city college here I come. Well, maybe in a few years time after I save up enough or hawk my soul to the bank. And with interest rates on Canadian student loans at anywhere from 8.5 to 11 percent, going into hawk for the right to an education isn't what it used to be.
quote:
[b]But what is truly outrageous is what passes for "outrageous" these days. What is "outrageous" is that 2.7 billion people live on $2 a day or less. A young person having to work hard to pay a paltry $5,000 in annual tuition is not.[/b]
Don't change the subject now. They're too busy waiting for the promise of a third world capitalist economic long run to kick-in. They haven't got time for higher education or any deviation away from the daily struggle in general.
Post-secondary used to be somewhat affordable, somewhat realistic for the average North American. A news report from last year said their were over 200, 000 eligible for college American students denied loans. So your solution is that they work McNight shifts and save up a measly $5 thousand bucks. I know $5,000 bucks was a lot of money when you went to school, Sven. Times have changed. Kids in Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, TURKEY of all countries, just go to school.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:25
#24
Good point Fidel.
I came from a town that had a university relatively close (Not Ottawa, I just haven’t gotten around to changing my location in my babble profile!) and I had the opportunity to go to a community university or college. Sure, financially, this would have been the best choice. But the program I was interested in wasn’t offered across the board at all universities, and I made the choice to go into debt to pursue what I wanted to do. With so many specialty programs popping up these days, many students need to make this choice. However, I was lucky. I had options in my city. Youth from a northern town, or any tiny rural community don’t have these options. Education = moving away = being forced to pay FAR more than $5,000, more than $10,000. I worked MANY hours during university, and with cost of living, tuition and lets face it, I actually wanted to have a bit of fun while in university too (how dare I, not sacrifice ALL my hours to work, and still have a social life!? Yes, I’m lazy.) And, I still ended up about $7,000-$8,000 per year in debt.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:36
#25
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]Just a question, Sven: were girls mowing lawns, working for the municipality and roguing sunflower fields in your day? Were kids from the poor side of town doing this? If they weren't, what great, easily-found jobs were [i]they[/i] doing to earn [i]their[/i] college tuition?Or were these just the "extreme" cases in your town? Or maybe they were "lazy"?[/b]
What prevents girls from mowing lawns, especially today?
The “poor side of town”? (laughing) We did not live in a wealthy community. It was just a small (2,000 people) rural farming community on the Canadian border (about a seven hours’ drive from a metropolitan area of any meaningful size—if you exclude Winnipeg).
It is laughable that most kids can’t earn a few extra bucks to save for college. If I were a kid today, I’d start a bathroom cleaning service—people hate cleaning bathrooms. I’d make a killing. I’ve told a niece and a nephew that they should consider just that. Bleh. They’d rather just hang out with friends. That’s okay. But, the opportunity is there.
I talk to business owners all the time. My office neighbor owns a small sandwich shop with her husband and it’s difficult to find kids to work for $7 an hour—who will consistently show up for work. Just fucking “show up for work”?? That’s the standard now??
We have a lake home about two hours north of here (the Twin Cities). Our home is just outside of a small town. It is next to impossible to find people (kids) to do any work. Other lake home owners complain about the same thing. For the life of me, we couldn’t find a kid interested in mowing and trimming our lawn. It’s astounding. There is so much work opportunity up there for kids and they don’t even know it.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:37
#26
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Kids in Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, TURKEY of all countries, just go to school.[/b]
Except that they [i]don't[/i] - [url=http://www.oecd.org/document/6/0,3343,en_2825_495609_37344774_1_1_1_1,00... at least not as many as go to school in Canada[/url].
53% of Canadians aged 25-34 have a post-secondary education, compared to:
42% of Swedes
39% of Norwegians
38% of Finns
35% of Danes
23% of Germans
11% of Turks
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:40
#27
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b] So your solution is that they work McNight shifts and save up a measly $5 thousand bucks. I know $5,000 bucks was a lot of money when you went to school, Sven. Times have changed. [/b]
Indeed they have. Saving $5,000 in today’s world (as opposed to 35 years ago) should be much easier. If I were working as a kid today (doing the same stuff I did 35 years ago), I would have saved $20,000, not $7,500.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:41
#28
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]Good point Fidel.I came from a town that had a university relatively close (Not Ottawa, I just haven’t gotten around to changing my location in my babble profile!) and I had the opportunity to go to a community university or college. Sure, financially, this would have been the best choice. But the program I was interested in wasn’t offered across the board at all universities, and I made the choice to go into debt to pursue what I wanted to do. With so many specialty programs popping up these days, many students need to make this choice. However, I was lucky. I had options in my city. Youth from a northern town, or any tiny rural community don’t have these options. Education = moving away = being forced to pay FAR more than $5,000, more than $10,000. I worked MANY hours during university, and with cost of living, tuition and lets face it, I actually wanted to have a bit of fun while in university too (how dare I, not sacrifice ALL my hours to work, and still have a social life!? Yes, I’m lazy.) And, I still ended up about $7,000-$8,000 per year in debt.[/b]
But, it was obviously worth it to you to do exactly that, no? Otherwise, you would have decided to do something different, no?
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:43
#29
Sven
By the way, I’ve never meant to say it is “easy” or “effortless” to earn and save money for college. Yeah, it takes hard work. But, who does that hurt?
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:50
#30
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Indeed they have. Saving $5,000 in today’s world (as opposed to 35 years ago) should be much easier. If I were working as a kid today (doing the same stuff I did 35 years ago), I would have saved $20,000, not $7,500.[/b]
Doing what? Your example must apply to life in a large urban centre.
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:52
#31
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]Doing what? Your example must apply to life in a large urban centre.[/b]
You think there are more earning opportunities in a remote rural farming community that in a urban area?
Fri, 2007-07-13 08:54
#32
for your claim to be credible, you'll need to answer that question. To prove that you understand conditions for students these days.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:06
#33
quote:
Originally posted by Free_Radical:
[b]
Except that they [i]don't[/i] - [url=http://www.oecd.org/document/6/0,3343,en_2825_495609_37344774_1_1_1_1,00... at least not as many as go to school in Canada[/url].[/b]
Except that some of us realize a large percentage of those already educated Canadians obtained their degrees, diplomas, apprenticeships and post-secondary educations in general at a time when post-secondary was affordable.
PSE isn't affordable today, and Canada has an annual doctor shortage of 500 GP's per year. The Yanks don't care how many doctors they have as long as rich people and those lucky enough to afford health insurance can see a doctor when needed. Like Michael Moore says about the shorter waiting times for medical procedures in that country: They've got 50 million people not even in the queue right off the bat.
People in Germany and France can live on a waiter or waitress' wages. That's just not true here in North America.
Next to the U.S., Canada has the largest low skill, lowly paid non-unionized workforce. There is more pressure for kids to get an education in North America, and a large percentage of them can't find work in their fields after graduating but are still obligated to pay back tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt.
Canada doesn't export nearly $900 Billion dollars worth of manufactured goods and services like the highly-skilled German workforce. What we do is export cheap fossil fuels and massive amounts of hydro-electric power to the States in propping up our newly minted trillion dollar economy since Brian Baloney made it easier for the Yanks to take our valuable resources off our hands. No wonder there's no money for post-secondary in this Northern Puerto Rico. Get a McJob kid! Because we've got big business to support with reduced per barrel oil royalties and tax breaks for profitable multinationals. There will be no free ride for Canadians in the mean time.
With defunding of post-secondary in North America, fewer and fewer new universities and colleges have been built. In the state of California alone, there were 21 super-prisons built to one new university in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, Asian countries are cranking out engineers and doctors like there's no tomorrow.
And with pay as you PSE, Canada still doesn't rate in the top ten most competitive economies in the world, like: Finland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, countries where PSE is affordable, and where governments have not stolen $52 Billion dollars from unemployment insurance and job slash job training funds.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:09
#34
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]for your claim to be credible, you'll need to answer that question. To prove that you understand conditions for students these days.[/b]
The relative wealth of, say, the Twin Cities where I live now is far greater than in the small rural farming community where I grew up. That means there are, proportionately, many more people here willing to pay people to perform service work (lawn mowing, cleaning, etc., etc.).
It's difficult to find someone to consistently show up (and do a good job) of cleaning a house, for example. We have found a person to do that after a long search. Finally found someone to mow our lawn (an enterprising nephew). Long search to find some to weed and tend to a garden (finally found a local person to do that). There are so many services that need to be done in a city of this size and (relative to rural farming communities) wealth that there is plenty of opportunity for kids willing to take the initiative and work hard to earn the money.
On top of that, like I said earlier, business go begging for kids who will just "show up for work" consistently. Too many kids are either unwilling to do that or don't even understand that that is necessary in order for people to want to give you money. And, as I also said before, that's not an "educational issues" so much as a "societal issue".
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:13
#35
Doesn't answer my question. Your claim is not credible.
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
What prevents girls from mowing lawns, especially today?
[/b]
PS: you didn't answer the question here, either. Were girls mowing lawns then? Were they getting the jobs with the municipality? Were they roguing sunflower fields? If they weren't, what were they doing?
[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: jas ]
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:14
#36
Why don't you offer to taxi them to the job sites, Sven?. Gasoline from Canadian oil is a bit cheaper down your way I imagine.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:15
#37
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]PS: you didn't answer the question here, either. Were girls mowing lawns then? Were they getting the jobs with the municipality? Were they roguing sunflower fields? If they weren't, what were they doing?[/b]
I don't recall if girls were mowing lawns 35 years ago. They were roguing in the sunflower fields and they did have jobs at the municipality. So, what's your point?
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:16
#38
Sven
My sister, who is three years younger than me, saved even more money than I did for college (she had about $12,000 saved).
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:19
#39
That's amazing, even for 35 years ago. (Which, by the way, would be 1972.) What did she do?
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:23
#40
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]I don't recall if girls were mowing lawns 35 years ago. They were roguing in the sunflower fields and they did have jobs at the municipality. So, what's your point?[/b]
What are you talking about?. Your country has an even larger low wage workforce than Canada does. And we know social welfare isn't enough to live on in the States never mind this Northern Puerto Rico. There has to be some number of kids donating the time of their lives to low wage philanthropy in the U.S., like here. So why were there more than 200, 000 American students apply for and denied student loans last year if there's too much money floating around the economy to pay for education?.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:26
#41
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]That's amazing, even for 35 years ago. (Which, by the way, would be 1972.) What did she do?[/b]
She, too, carried newspapers starting in fifth grade through graduation. She worked in one of the three or four local restaurants. She painted houses with my older brother. And did other odd jobs here and there. She was a bit less invovled in extra-curricular activies during the school year than I was and, so, she had more hours to work.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:27
#42
How long did it take her to save $12 G's, Sven? In what decade ?. Because personal savings rates aren't nearly what they used to be, in case you haven't noticed.
[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:34
#43
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]How long did it take her to save $12 G's, Sven? In what decade ?.[/b]
About seven years.
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Because personal savings rates aren't nearly what they used to be, in case you haven't noticed.[/b]
That's true. But wages are more than double what they were 35 years ago, making saving $12,000 today much easier than saving $12,000 was 35 years ago.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:37
#44
Savings rates are nil next to nothing in North America today.
China and Russia are pumping out four times as many engineers as the States right now. And Canada is still a hewer and drawer economy post-NAFTA and with students carrying over $12 Billion in student loan debts. Fanny Mae and the rest are making a killing off student loans in the U.S.
Truck driving is the largest source of employment in Canada now. And I think Walmart is America's largest employer. Maybe the lack of good jobs being created means that only kids from middle and upper income families should access higher ed?. What do you think, Sven?. [url=http://conservativenannystate.org]http://conservativenannystate.org[/url]
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:37
#45
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
But wages are more than double what they were 35 years ago, making saving $12,000 today much easier than saving $12,000 was 35 years ago.[/b]
LOL, and the cost of living hasn't changed at all, right? Maybe it even went down??
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:40
#46
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]LOL, and the cost of living hasn't changed at all, right? Maybe it even went down??[/b]
Real income has increased over the last 35 years (it certainly hasn't decreased). So, saving $12,000 of today's dollars is easier than saving $12,000 of 1970s dollars.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:43
#47
That's strange, because spending power has decreased.
In any case, we should know by now that when Sven presents personal anecdotal evidence from 3 decades ago in small town Minnesota? (is it?) that it necessarily speaks for current generations in all conditions in contemporary North America. Because Sven had help as a kid and found jobs with little problem, so should today's kids, whether they're from Kamsack Saskatchewan, or Toronto Ontario. They should [i]all[/i] be able to have the same advantages and opportunities as Sven did 35 years ago. Because that's how things work all over, right?
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:48
#48
quote:
But, it was obviously worth it to you to do exactly that, no? Otherwise, you would have decided to do something different, no?
It was worth it, because it was possible. I was able to scrounge up enough OSAP to get myself through. If my father hadn't recently been laid off, and therefore made me more eligible for OSAP, there is NO WAY I would have an education, in the field I wanted. Absolutely no way. This conversation is discriminatory and it's starting to make my blood boil!
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:50
#49
quote:
And $2500 pays your tuition, maybe some books, for a single year.
$2,500 barely covers 15 credit hours (a semester at SFU) which totals $2,266.50. Add in supplementary fees and you're over $2,500. Add in textbooks and you're well above that.
Fri, 2007-07-13 09:51
#50
quote:
And $2500 pays your tuition, maybe some books, for a single year.
For sure, that was only a semester for me at Carleton, not even.
Fri, 2007-07-13 10:05
#51
Sven
When I graduated from law school in 1994, my annual tuition was $8,500. It was an [b][i]absolute steal[/b][/i]. I’ve earned that back more times than I can count and would do it again in a heartbeat.
If my choice as a young person was to (1) work hard, go into debt, and get a college education at a tuition rate of five grand a year or (2) not go to college, the decision would be simple.