Treating HIV with homeopathy?
Fri, 2007-11-30 20:25
#1
Treating HIV with homeopathy?
Fri, 2007-11-30 20:25
#2
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7122370.stm]Concern over HIV homeopathy role[/url]
quote:
Doctors and health charities have expressed concern about a conference which will examine the role of homeopathy in treating HIV.The event includes discussion of what have been described as "healing remedies" for HIV and AIDS.
One of the speakers believes that the treatment, involving flower essences, can be used to halt the AIDS epidemic.
When homeopaths stay away from serious illness, they harm only the intelligence.
This looks far more dangerous.
I don't know how much homeopathic "remedies" fetch worldwide, but someone must be smelling a huge untapped HIV market.
Fri, 2007-11-30 21:04
#3
Le T
quote:
...untapped HIV market.
Wow, that has such a disgusting ring to it.
I don't understand how homeopathic medicine can be used to treat a disease that is defined and diagnosed by the Dominant model.
Isn't it kind of like shoving the square peg into the round hole?
Fri, 2007-11-30 21:12
#4
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
[b]
Isn't it kind of like shoving the square peg into the round hole?[/b]
With money as lubricant, it can be done.
Fri, 2007-11-30 23:03
#5
TemporalHominid
magical thinking persists
quote:
Gambian President Yahya Jammeh claims he can cure HIV, Aids and asthma, using charisma, magic, herbs, and charms. "The cure is a day's treatment," he says, "asthma, five minutes."
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6323449.stm]Gambian President[/url] Yahya Jammeh claims he heals all, including HIV/AIDS
Sat, 2007-12-01 08:48
#6
I was at a presentation on alternate therapies a number of years ago, and it was either a homeopathic or naturopathic Dr.(I forget the distinction) who said that a mentor of hers could cure cancer, as well as Downs syndrome (which she referred to as Mongoloidism). In the case of the Downs syndrome, it was by rebuilding the damaged or missing DNA material. I was among those who did not return after the break.
Having said that, I do respect certain non-western therapies, and in my work have seen them used as an effective adjunct to the western approach.
[ 01 December 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]
Sat, 2007-12-01 13:01
#7
While I remain sceptical of alternative therapies, etc, I am not as dismissive as I once was, just based on my experience using broad leaf plantain for relief of mosquito bite itching and wasp sting. Similarly, the use of cat nip as a mosquito repellent.
But in using them, I was careful to eliminate, as best I could on my own, other factors that could have lead to an erroneous conclusion that this stuff "works". And, in the case of broad leaf plantain, I'm not convinced something that works so well and so quickly might not have side effects we are unaware of due to lack of real scientific inquiry.
But then, if we subject alternative treatments or therapies to a double blind study, doesn't that them make them part of the "western approach" ?
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-12-01 13:12
#8
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]But then, if we subject alternative treatments or therapies to a double blind study, doesn't that them make them part of the "western approach" ?[/b]
No, generally speaking, it makes them false. That's why they're not studied that way.
Sat, 2007-12-01 14:16
#9
remind
It seems people seem to forget, or not even realize, that in many, many cases, big pharma's drugs come from a derivative of something that has been used by indingenous peoples for centuries as a treatment, or a synthetic form of what is contained in the plant, fungus, berry or other. need i remind people of foxglove = digitalis and they pay people to go into the rain forest and talk to medicine women/men who utilize plants for treatments, and then get specimens to take back to the lab to see what the active properties are, and synthicize them and then test to see what is actually is working when they cure, or alleviate the illness.
Also, empowering the immune system and allowing the body to heal itself is the best treatment there is.
As I have stated here before, Linus Pauling, while head of the WHO, spoke with health care professionals at UVIC, back in the 80's, whereby he levelled the accusation that health care professionals who use treaments that shut down the immune system, are actually complicit in that persons demise. Meaning treatments such as chemo therapy and radiation, while in some cases prolong the person's life, do nothing more than forestall death a quicker, whereas a fully empowered immune system gets rid of certain types of disease permanently.
Nanaimo's, now long time mayor, had cancer in the late 80's and was given 6 months, at tops to live, even with chemo. He decided to go to the Gerson clinic and treat it by their means, which is homeopathy and empowering the immune system. He still lives and is mayor today.
My cousin was diagnosed with advanced MS, I called her in Texas, and recommended the Gerson clinic, she had no western medical options, as MS suffers still do not, and she had already started to lose the use of her legs. She went, and now 15+ years later, the Drs will only say, she is still in "remission". Her legs have recovered their functioning, as well.
Sat, 2007-12-01 14:56
#10
We've already seen the tragic consequences of "folk" therapies for HIV/AIDS in Africa. The prevention is safe sex, the treatment is "big pharma" drugs that cost lots of money. Unproven unscientific approaches not only provide false hope, but they divert attention from the need for wide-ranging economic change in these societies to eliminate the stranglehold of colonialism and imperialism - the source of health catastrophes of many kinds for the indigenous populations.
Sat, 2007-12-01 15:23
#11
remind
I am not in disagreement with you unionist, per se, although I do believe that an empowered immune system goes along way in assisting HIV positive people to not become full blown. Also, there is a HIV drug, that is produced here in Canada generically, and is relatively inexpensive, forget the name now, will have to look it up, that they could be using in Africa and they are not. Was watching Stephen Lewis talking about it with George on The Hour.
Sat, 2007-12-01 18:57
#12
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
It seems people seem to forget, or not even realize, that in many, many cases, big pharma's drugs come from a derivative of something that has been used by indingenous peoples for centuries as a treatment
People don't forget, they just never knew in the first place and that is a shame. As remind pointed out indigenous cultures have contributed lots to modern medicine and that is exactly why MODERN medicine should not be refered to as "western" medicine or "eurocentric" medicine as it so often is. Modern medicine incorporates whatever is found to work. I know an awful lot of people who avoid "western" medicine because it is a big world out we should take advantage of the knowledge of every culture. If they would take the time to study the history of medicine they would find that is what modern medicine actually has done (Lets not forget that almost all traditional european medicine didn't work - including homeopathy which was a brilliant idea at the time, but a simple understanding of chemistry should confirm why the studies into homeopathy have shown no value). Vaccinations were declared the most important medical advance in the human history (or something like that, I can't remember the wording). Where did it come from? Europe? Nope. The US? Nope. Try Africa where they used artificial immunization against small pox maybe 2000 years ago. Europe and US began vaccinatingin the 18th century by using the EXACT technique from Africa. (China started using a different artificial immunization technique for small pox about 2000 years ago too). Sure enough though, almost everyone I know who decides to avoid the evils of "western medicine" in favor of traditional medicines from other cultures, starts off their crusade by avoiding the greatest contribution from traditional and non-western medicine. Ironic?
Sat, 2007-12-01 22:06
#13
Some people have a bone to pick with natural healing. Only things developed in labs work. Human health relies almost entirely on expensive medical equipment and expensive, synthethic drugs. We are utterly helpless without these things, and thank god for socialized health care, or we'd all be fucked. The body has no capacity whatsoever to heal itself. It is utterly dependent on scientific intervention. We're all going to end up in hospitals with tubes up our noses because this is what happens when you get old. This is your future. It's inevitable. It's a proven fact. You need to die the right way, not the stupid way. I don't care what you think.
Got any drugs?
Sun, 2007-12-02 02:55
#14
quote:
No, generally speaking, it makes them false. That's why they're not studied that way.
He he. There is no vermouth in our sense of humour, is there?
Uninterestingly enough, this months issues of "Skeptic" and the "Skeptical Inquirer" are devoted to issues of alternative medicine and therapies. I purchased them last night at Chapters, for three dollars more (combined) than they are sold in the United States of Amnesia. But that's another subject.
"Skeptic" includes an article on the scientific disputes concerning the origins of AIDS, but neither addresses the issue of alternative therapies for HIV-AIDS.
The web site "Quack Watch" undoubtedly does, however.
Sun, 2007-12-02 07:39
#15
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]The body has no capacity whatsoever to heal itself.[/b]
2.8 million HIV-infected bodies worldwide didn't manage to heal themselves in 2005. Access to meds might have helped.
I believe in science (sorry if that sounds politically incorrect). Science doesn't mean labs. It means proof. It really abhors anecdotes. It explains the world and saves lives.
[ 02 December 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
Sun, 2007-12-02 08:03
#16
Homeopathy is more religion than science, with many passionate adherents. It serves its purpose when people want to medicate themselves for minor but annoying self-limiting maladies like colds and seasonal allergies.
Basically, we call this the placebo effect. I like homeopathy for diverting healthy people with minor ailments away from the overworked medical system so that we can focus on the people who are really sick.
The trouble with "alternative medicine" is for the most part it's occupied by quacks looking to sell their products or maybe just promote themselves as medical mavericks, taking perverse pleasure from their pariah status.
Tue, 2007-12-04 15:50
#17
TemporalHominid
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]....used by indingenous peoples for centuries as a treatment, .[/b]
Yes, but this is not homeopathy.
This is called 'trial and error', and evidence based reasoning, which can be observed and passed on generation to generation.
This process applies to mushrooms, berries, etc.
This is rudimentary scientific inquiry, which all cultures and societies engage in. Humans are curious, and imbibe and then observe the outcomes of their behaviours.
This process led up to current scientific process. It was a work in process for millions of years. Evidence based reasoning is nothing new.
Animal even engage in a rudimentary process like this to some extent, but we wouldn't call what animals do homeopathy (or medical science for that matter, heh ).
Parents (human or otherwise) pass on info to their offspring to pursue or ignore certain berries or mushrooms depending on 1st hand experiences, or what they learned from their parents.
Homeopathy does not use evidence based reasoning.
Romanticising a culture, any culture for any agenda, seems intellectually dishonest to me.
Give credit where credit is due (discovery and ingenuity), but let's consider putting a moratorium on promoting urban myths and stereotypes to advance agendas that are based on magical thinking at the expense of indigenous people or people of any heritage.
[ 04 December 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]
Tue, 2007-12-04 22:12
#18
It's amazing how many species survive and thrive on this planet despite unprecedented stresses we have put on them - [i]without[/i] modern, scientific medicine! [i]Without [/i]machines! Only humans seem to be so dependent on a system that, paradoxically, seems to require so much of us: our money, our faith, our government's money, our legal system... And yet, the horrors of disease we face globally never seem to change. Maybe the [i]kinds[/i] of diseases change, maybe these days it's cancer and AIDS rather than plague, but mortality rates stay constant, relatively. It appears that we have just as much disease in the global human population as we ever have - first world and third world alike.
And yet, those who defend this system so vociferously feel somehow qualified to ridicule, to villify, to [i]publicly lobby against[/i] the efforts and explorations of others in the field of health care. Others who, contrary to what a confused and/or jealous? medical profession would have us believe, probably care more about true human health than their so-called scientific peers.
Although I cannot speak for homeopathy myself, to suggest that homeopathy is attempting to exploit the AIDS epidemic and somehow "cash in" (like, [i]WHAT[/i] ??) by developing a homeopathic approach is, to me, ludicrous at best, and incredibly hypocritical, offensive, and deeply misinformed at worst.
Yeah, like AIDS is such a cash cow. Homeopaths are going to blackmail governments into buying their flower essences en masse.
Do you have any clue how ridiculous you sound?
Wed, 2007-12-05 05:35
#19
I once had occasion to investigate the funding of the main "alternative Medicine" "college" here in Toronto.
I found out that, apart from fees to students, the School recieved large grants from the homeopathic medicine industry.
Then, in the classroom, the students were taught to prescribe those medicines to people coming seeking cures.
This works very well for the companies.
Wed, 2007-12-05 06:29
#20
Yes, unlike university medical schools, who would never dream of taking any funding whatsoever from the pharmaceutical industry or any health care company! [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
That said, I agree with you that homeopathy is total bunk.
Wed, 2007-12-05 07:10
#21
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
... apart from fees to students, the School recieved large grants from the homeopathic medicine industry.Then, in the classroom, the students were taught to prescribe those medicines to people coming seeking cures.
LOL. Say it isn't so!
But by all means, feel free to name names, Jeff. What was the college you investigated? Was it the one offering 11 courses this year? Who are the "fat cats" in the homeopathic industry ?
Wed, 2007-12-05 09:24
#22
quote:
And yet, the horrors of disease we face globally never seem to change.
Ah yes, nothing like wealthy westerners trashing the modern medicine which has allowed them to grow up completely ignorant of the devastation caused by childhood disease both in the past in currently in poorer countries. The good old days when a couple children from most families died before reaching adulthood and the chances of losing a parent at a young age for a couple times higher.
quote:
Maybe the [i]kinds[/i] of diseases change, maybe these days it's cancer and AIDS rather than plague, but mortality rates stay constant, relatively.
If you mean that everyone will eventually die, then you are right. Otherwise you have no idea what you are talking about. In the US the mortality rate in 2004 was 8.2 per 1000. In 1900 it was 17.2/1000. Even when adjusted for age the results are still strikingly NOT constant. Children were more than 10 times less likely to die than children in 1900. For adults aged 24 – 65 the death rate fell in half. And for elderly aged 65 – 74 the death rate fell even more from 7% per year to less than 2% per year. And that is in the US where child mortality is still very high compared to other western countries (for instance child mortality in the UK has fallen 28 fold) and many don’t have health insurance.
quote:
It appears that we have just as much disease in the global human population as we ever have - first world and third world alike.
You are being deceived.
quote:
And yet, those who defend this system so vociferously feel somehow qualified to ridicule, to villify, to [i]publicly lobby against[/i] the efforts and explorations of others in the field of health care.
Bull shit. Alternative Medicines have lobbied long and hard to ensure that they are regulation free. I think that they should be subject to the exact same regulations as the rest of the health care industry and then the 95% of it that is a scam would disappear.
quote:
Others who, contrary to what a confused and/or jealous? medical profession would have us believe, probably care more about true human health than their so-called scientific peers.
The alternative medicine industry has long screamed that there was/is a conspiracy against it perpetrated by the AMA. Truth is the AMA for the most part completely ignores alternative medicine with the exception of when someone does a study about an alternative medicine. Seeing as alternative medicine prefers to rely on outrageous claims and anecdotal evidence you won't see a proper study from them. Luckily we do have the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine which has been doing real studies for years (spending well over $100 million a year) and so far they have basically come up with nothing. There are a couple other organizations that do the same and have come up with similar results - a well funded organization in Switzerland - I can't remember the name.
I have researched alternative medicine for a couple years and I agree with Richard Dawkins who defines alternative medicine as a "...set of practices which cannot be tested, refuse to be tested, or consistently fail tests. If a healing technique is demonstrated to have curative properties in properly controlled double-blind trials, it ceases to be alternative. It simply...becomes medicine." He also states that "There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine that works and medicine that doesn't work."
quote:
Although I cannot speak for homeopathy myself, to suggest that homeopathy is attempting to exploit the AIDS epidemic and somehow "cash in" (like, [i]WHAT[/i] ??) by developing a homeopathic approach is, to me, ludicrous at best, and incredibly hypocritical, offensive, and deeply misinformed at worst.
I would suggest that you research homeopathy then.
quote:
Yeah, like AIDS is such a cash cow. Homeopaths are going to blackmail governments into buying their flower essences en masse.
Homeopathic treatment is generally not covered, so they are not blackmailing governments they are praying on desperate patients for money. Much like telvangelists pray on elderly people.
quote:
Who are the "fat cats" in the homeopathic industry ?
There are a lot of people making a lot of money off of alternative health scams. Kevin Trudeau would be the one most prominently in the news lately (check out his criminal record, it is as long as my arm, he is clearly a sociopath) but there are hundreds and they are no different than Christian faith healers. Sure it is unlikely that anyone has made billions off of homeopathy, but seeing as it is complete bunk and a scam against vulnerable people we should be outraged off anyone making any money from it. And don’t kid yourself, alternative medicine is a wealthy industry that has a lot of influence including from several US politicians who have successfully fought to ensure that the same standards and regulations applied for modern medicine are NOT used for alternatives. For instance Dan Burton (R- IND) has been trying since 1983 to ensure that alternatives are regulation free and I highly doubt that he does it out the goodness of his heart. That is not to say that all alternative medicines are a scam. Some are excellent. Milk Thistle for instance is the best cure for acute poisoning from eating death-cup mushrooms and there are many other examples. However, the fact that the industry for the most part defends completely ridiculous scams like homeopathy and magnet therapy (if your blood was even slightly magnetic an MRI would cause you to explode) and the fact that the industry as a whole has had no interest in actually doing studies into the effectiveness of their therapies shows that alternative medicine for the most part is far more about scamming the ignorant than about promoting health.
Wed, 2007-12-05 12:02
#23
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
[b]Who are the "fat cats" in the homeopathic industry ?[/b]
There are today's closing numbers for the [url=http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/homeopathic-laboratory/financial-datas.htm]... Corporation[/url], researcher and maker of homeopathic "treatments". They apparently do veterinary medicine now too, in addition to people.
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Wed, 2007-12-05 13:50
#24
quote:
And yet, those who defend this system so vociferously feel somehow qualified to ridicule, to villify, to publicly lobby against the efforts and explorations of others in the field of health care.
Not only am I qualified to evaluate, discredit and ridicule homeopathy and some other "alternative" treatments, I feel obligated to do so, to protect my patients from being scammed.
Wed, 2007-12-05 17:50
#25
Le T
So why is it that one tradition of medicine is called medicine and every other tradition of medicine is lumped in as "[i]alternative[/i] medicine"?
I don't know a damned thing about homeopathy but I can tell you that there are many different traditions of healing in the world that have existed long before the men burned the witches and built the hospitals and universities.
Do we want to have a talk about homeopathy and HIV or do people just want to assert that Western medicine is supreme to anything that exists as a matter of principle?
Don't judge what you don't know.
Wed, 2007-12-05 18:38
#26
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
So why is it that one tradition of medicine is called medicine and every other tradition of medicine is lumped in as "[i]alternative[/i] medicine"?
Why is it that people assume that modern medicine is traditional western medicine? It is not. I would encourage you to read a history of medicine. Modern medicine rejected almost all traditional western and european medicine so it clearly can't be traditional western or european medicine. Modern medicine also rejected most of all other traditional medicines. It accepted what worked and rejected what didn't from all traditions and cultures.
Homeopathy by the way IS traditional European medicine, as was bloodletting, drinking goats urine and tons of other ridiculously inane ideas. All three of those don't work, but if I was rank them in terms of effectiveness it would go:
1) blood letting, many europeans accumulate iron in their blood (hemochromatosis) so blood letting can be used for that, although there is no benefit in using the traditional techniques as modern techniques are better and there are alternatives.
2) drinking goat urine, can't see any medical benefit but at least you might be make some money through bets at parties.
1,000,000) homeopathy
quote:
Don't judge what you don't know.
Don't assume that those judging homeopathy don't know.
[ 05 December 2007: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]
[ 05 December 2007: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]
Wed, 2007-12-05 19:09
#27
Le T
You completely missed my point.
Wed, 2007-12-05 19:14
#28
(1,000,001)[url=http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/05/5622/]unsustainable medicine[/url]
[ 05 December 2007: Message edited by: Bubbles ]
Wed, 2007-12-05 19:21
#29
Herbalism =root of many modern medicines; good for some ailments, not others.
Homeopathy =root of much modern confusion; good for some bank balances, not others.
Wed, 2007-12-05 20:25
#30
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
[b]So why is it that one tradition of medicine is called medicine and every other tradition of medicine is lumped in as "[i]alternative[/i] medicine"?[/b]
That's an excellent question which I've often puzzled over. I think it's largely a result of amateurs and/or frauds seeking to lend legitimacy to their endeavours.
The term "alternative medicine" is as illegitimate as "alternative chemistry", "alternative physics", or "alternative civil engineering".
In all legitimate scientific fields, there are rival theories seeking to explain natural (or social) phenomena at given times and places. This is a dynamic situation, as theories are confirmed, refuted, amended, discarded. [i]But all these theories coexist under the aegis of the same discipline.[/i] Why? Because all are subject to the scientific method. All stand or fall by the same criteria of observation, trial, confirmability, reproducibility, peer review, etc.
Homeopathy should be welcomed into the world of medicine (not "alternative" medicine, which to me means "alternative to medicine"), for as long as it takes to demonstrate its explicative and therapeutic efficacity. Then, 15 minutes later, having failed every test known to humanity, it will be discarded.
That's why the "alternative" tent exists. Lacking that, it would just be the dustbin.
Thu, 2007-12-06 09:00
#31
Le T
Unionist, you seem to be enforcing an even stronger binary than the one I originally pointed out.
Don't you think that your opinion is a little ethnocentric? Even colonial?
For somthing to be "true" it must pass a standardized test developed by a hyper-materialist, hyper-rationalist tradition of science which has significant hegemonic power?
Then if it is "true", it becomes incorporated into this fold.
Thu, 2007-12-06 09:05
#32
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]Not only am I qualified to evaluate, discredit and ridicule homeopathy and some other "alternative" treatments, I feel obligated to do so, to protect my patients from being scammed.[/b]
Don't phuck with babble's pharmacist! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] (We should make you a t-shirt.)
I actually don't have a problem with herbal remedies, as long as they're tested properly. It's when you start getting into the homeopathic solutions that are diluted to the point where it's nothing but plain water with no molecules left of the supposed healing substance that it's nothing but a sham.
Thu, 2007-12-06 12:07
#33
quote:
For somthing to be "true" it must pass a standardized test developed by a hyper-materialist, hyper-rationalist tradition of science which has significant hegemonic power?
Maybe a thought experiment?
If we line up an Asian person, a person from Africa, along with an Australian aboriginal, a North American aboriginal and an European together on a plank, three feet off the surface of the moon, and then removed that plank, which one would touch the surface of the moon first? Or would they all touch at the same time? Or would the results depend on the ethnicity of the observer?
Thu, 2007-12-06 13:26
#34
quote:
If we line up an Asian person, a person from Africa, along with an Australian aboriginal, a North American aboriginal and an European together on a plank, three feet off the surface of the moon, and then removed that plank, which one would touch the surface of the moon first? Or would they all touch at the same time? Or would the results depend on the ethnicity of the observer?
Oh I see prior to the theory of gravity things didn't fall to the ground.
A scientific theory is a description of an event that it occurs it is not the event. A theory such as gravity may accurately describe and predict events that does not mean all theories have the same accuracy or the general accuracy of scientific explanation can be determined by only referencing the most accurate descriptions and predictions.
The point that telespectateur is making I believe is that it is pure cultural imperialism to dismiss the healing systems of other cultures that are based in worldviews and cosmologies those of us in the west do not share or understand.
The pharmaceutical industry is poised to rape and pillage the amazonian rain forest in search of cures based on the knowledge of indigenous herbalist at the same time they are willing to dismiss the basis upon which this knowledge is founded. Others are quiet willing to dismiss Ayuvedic or Chinese traditional methods of healing without the slightest understanding of these approaches, at the same time that they are unwilling to acknowledge the short comings in western assumptions of knowledge.
Thu, 2007-12-06 13:30
#35
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
You completely missed my point.
I reread your post and, to me at least, your point is: Modern medicine is western or European traditional medicine. Concerning that point you are wrong. Let me know what I missed.
quote:
Don't you think that your opinion is a little ethnocentric? Even colonial?
People seem to have no problem understanding that there would be no benefit to us here in Canada if we dismissed evidence in favor of Christian superstitions and religious beliefs, although teaching creationism in our science classrooms would be entertaining. Yet many people seem to think that there is a benefit to other cultures if they dismiss evidence in favor of superstitions and religious beliefs?
I am not overly fond of your view as it dismisses the significant past, present and future contributions to medicine and science by almost all cultures. This Persian muslim is widely considered the world’s first true scientist and the founder of the scientific method several centuries before it was ever accepted in europe:
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Ibn-Al-haytham-Scientist-Profiles-Science/dp/15993... Al-haytham: First Scientist[/url]
I wonder if people will finally stop throwing out the ethnocentric card when China and India surpass the west in scientific and medical research?
[ 06 December 2007: Message edited by: Trevormkidd ]
Thu, 2007-12-06 13:59
#36
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
[b]Don't you think that your opinion is a little ethnocentric? Even colonial?
[/b]
No.
Is there a serious disagreement among serious people about how scientific theories should be tested and confirmed?
Not that I'm aware.
I'm not talking about value systems. I'm talking about science.
Thu, 2007-12-06 13:59
#37
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
The point that telespectateur is making I believe is that it is pure cultural imperialism to dismiss the healing systems of other cultures that are based in worldviews and cosmologies those of us in the west do not share or understand.
Why? We dismissed the healing systems from our own culture which were based on religious views with no evidence (meaning almost all of them). I highly doubt that you accuse people from other cultures of dismissing christian faith healers because they do not share and understand the same worldview as Pat Robertson.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:03
#38
Personally, I'm only dismissing homeopathy - a european concoction.
Any problem with that??
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:24
#39
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]Oh I see prior to the theory of gravity things didn't fall to the ground.[/b]
Oh my, methinks your ethnocentric hegemonic cultural predilections are showing. In my faith-based belief system, many things, far from falling to the ground, fly directly to heaven, where they nestle in the heavenly aura and reside by the right hand of the Almighty - who Alone is capable of curing whooping cough.
Please respect my cultural beliefs and reconsider your attachment to the 16th century British colonial theory of so-called "gravity".
[ 06 December 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:24
#40
quote:
Why? We dismissed the healing systems from our own culture which were based on religious views with no evidence (meaning almost all of them). I highly doubt that you accuse people from other cultures of dismissing christian faith healers because they do not share and understand the same worldview as Pat Robertson.
Interestingly though both Christian and scientific narratives shared a role in the colon9ization of non-western peoples. There is a difference dismissing ideas that are part of our own culture and we have some experience and knowledge of and world views we have no clue about.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:31
#41
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]
There is a difference dismissing ideas that are part of our own culture and we have some experience and knowledge of and world views we have no clue about.[/b]
Perfect. My parents are from Central Europe, and I learned German from them as a child. Does that qualify me to dismiss homeopathy (invented by Hahnemann) as a bad dream born of binge drinking?
I have no knowledge or criticism of Indigenous, Chinese, or Indian traditional theories and practices of healing. I opened this thread only to warn people that the homeopathic hucksters are getting ready to endanger as many lives as they can of HIV victims by peddling their magic water.
[ 06 December 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:33
#42
quote:
Please respect my cultural beliefs and reconsider your attachment to the 16th British colonial theory of so-called "gravity".
You can continue your mockery if you wish but you miss the point, whether Newton proposed a theory of gravity or not we would still fall if we stepped off a cliff, the explication of a theory does not make is so. Newton did not create the actions he described or observed. A description of the world is something we construct it is not independent of us even if the universe is. Gravity is also a robust theory that does not mean all scientific theories share that degree of robustness.
[ 06 December 2007: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:38
#43
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]You can continue your mockery if you wish ...[/b]
Whew, thanks, that's a relief - because at this stage of life, I'd have a hard time stopping even if you insisted.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:39
#44
quote:
Gravity is also a robust theory that does not all scientific theories share that degree of robustness.
....how do you [i]know?[/i]
[ 06 December 2007: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:41
#45
quote:
I have no knowledge or criticism of Indigenous, Chinese, or Indian traditional theories and practices of healing. I opened this thread only to warn people that the homeopathic hucksters are getting ready to endanger as many lives as they can of HIV victims by peddling their magic water.
Fine with me knock yourself out. Although I doubt there are legions of people out there who would actually put such faith in homeopathy and if they did I suppose it would still be there choice. If the ministry of health was making such claims i would be concerned.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:42
#46
quote:
Whew, thanks, that's a relief - because at this stage of life, I'd have a hard time stopping even if you insisted.
I'm only bringing it up because you constantly make comments like this and then you throw a shit fit any time that I get sarcastic.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:42
#47
Le T
quote:
Personally, I'm only dismissing homeopathy - a european concoction.Any problem with that??
Not at all. I have very little knowledge of homeopathy. I would feel unprepared to discuss its effectiveness. As I said, don't judge what you don't know.
I never framed so-called "western medicine" as the traditional medicine of Europe. I actually traced it back to its inception when "the men burned the witches and built the hospitals and universities".
I called this a tradition of medicine, as in one of many.
As I'm sure most of you know, scientific method didn't play a large part in so-called "western medicine" until the 1800's or so.
The idea that "science" is somehow pure and free of values is so ridicules. "Science" is a political activity.
I put science in quotes because, like "medicine", what you are really talking about when you say "science" or "medicine" is dominant science and dominant medicine.
There are many other traditions of both science and medicine (some people may not like me applying those labels). The dominant model has been stealing bits and pieces of many of these traditions (often patenting these 1000's of years old ideas and then claiming ownership). What the dominant model always missed is the fact that these other traditions have developed with different worldviews.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:45
#48
quote:
how do you know?
How do I know what? whether gravity is a robust theory or whether all scientific theories are not equally robust.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:49
#49
I'm not at all at odds with you here. While I think scientific theories are pretty robust, I would totally agree that hypothesis are much more open to question, and some undoubtedly are more likely to be truer than others.
So how do you discern them?
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:50
#50
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[b]Fine with me knock yourself out. Although I doubt there are legions of people out there who would actually put such faith in homeopathy and if they did I suppose it would still be there choice. If the ministry of health was making such claims i would be concerned.[/b]
In case you haven't noticed, there are assholes in power in various parts of the world who deprive HIV victims of lifesaving remedies either out of uncaring greed or corruption or superstition (especially the religious variety) etc. If some con artist with a "doctor" in their name comes along with bargain basement flower essence and rhus tox, there is a slight danger that some anti-human regime might grant a contract - especially when it means not having to worry about condoms and proven pharma remedies. That's why all people of conscience have a duty to speak out against such obscenities masquerading under "alternative" labels.
Thu, 2007-12-06 14:58
#51
quote:
Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
[b]
The idea that "science" is somehow pure and free of values is so ridicules. "Science" is a political activity.
[/b]
Unlike politics, in science, it matters whether or not your ideas work.