RADARSAT Now Launched! Canada Reaches New Heights in Hypocrisy & Space Militarisation

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Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture
RADARSAT Now Launched! Canada Reaches New Heights in Hypocrisy & Space Militarisation

 

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Hey Rabblers!

Q: What Canadian technology will be used if and when the US wages WWIII with Iran?
A: RADARSAT-2!

RADARSAT-2 was Launched Today, Dec. 14, 2007:
Canada Reaches New Heights in Hypocrisy and the Militarization of Space!

With today's launch of Canada's RADARSAT-2 satellite, our country has reached dizzying new heights in the militarization of space. 

Blasting this satellite into orbit also represents a new pinnacle in Canadian government hypocrisy and denial. The Canadian Space Agency (CSA) proudly lists the applications of RADARSAT-2 as follows:
"Ice; Marine Surveillance; Disaster Management; Hydrology; Mapping; Geology; Agriculture; Forestry."
[url=http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/satellites/radarsat2/applications.asp]htt...

What this public relations puff piece from the CSA neglects to mention is that RADARSAT is also a billion dollar Christmas present from Canadian taxpayers to the U.S. military.  In fact, RADARSAT is likely the Canadian government's single-most important technological contribution to U.S. institutions dedicated to gathering intelligence and waging war.

However, the importance of RADARSAT-2 in fighting future U.S. wars will continue to be glossed over, if not completely ignored, by news agencies that have now begun to bombard us with their glowing reports about this billion-dollar satellite system.

Not only has RADARSAT-2 already helped put Canada on the map as a major global player in the militarization of space, its predecessor — RADARSAT-1 — generously mapped the entire world for U.S. military and intelligence agencies.  These U.S. government departments are in fact among the biggest and most appreciative beneficiaries of this publicly-funded, but now privately-controlled Canadian space technology. 

To read the rest of this article, click here:
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/RADARSAT-2.htm]http://coat.ncf.ca/RADARSAT-2.htm[/url]

And, if that's not enough, access a whole issue of the Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade's magazine, Press for Conversion!, dealing with this subject:
"Canada's Role in the Militarisation of Space:
RADARSAT, The Warfighters' Eye in the Sky and its links to Missile Defense."
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/58.html]http://coat.ncf.ca/our_...

anchovy breather

It's unfortunate that RADARSAT can be exploited for military purposes. However, that is not it's main raison d'etre. It's not the freaking Death Star.

We're at the crux of a major climate shift, so it may be a handy tool.

500_Apples

Luddite alert.

Webgear

quote:


Originally posted by anchovy breather:
[b]It's unfortunate that RADARSAT can be exploited for military purposes. However, that is not it's main raison d'etre. It's not the freaking Death Star.
[/b]

RADARSAT-3 will have the Death Star Laser upgrade, which is due to launch 2018.

anchovy breather

I am weirdo in that I tend to enjoy high resolution satellite images for aesthetic reasons. Or maybe Earth porn I guess.

[url=http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cjrs/rs3-04.html]An older link on RADARSAT2[/url]

Webgear

I believe it is an excellent platform, and the images are very good.

anchovy breather

Meh. Need to login to the CJRS to get the full effect.

Doug

The US military didn't want RADARSAT-2 launched in the first place - that's why the launch had to be contracted to Russia.

[ 14 December 2007: Message edited by: Doug ]

Buddy Kat

Most people don't know or care but the technology behind radarsat is Canadian...the SAR (synthetic aperture radar)electronics was developed by Canadians after world war 2 for mapping purposes. It uses a stereo radar imaging system....like the "arrow" it was ahead of it's time. Also like the arrow the technology was given away.

I know Americans were pissed off when radarsat 1 was launched as it has the ability to see in the dark and thru clouds in one of it's many modes.

Another neat feature that satellites didn't have was it's "playback" feature. While most satellites do their thing in "real time". The radarsat and ers1 -
(european space agency version that was launched first with the Canadian sar technology but tracked by Canada during it's maiden flight)-

records what it images and plays it back when instructed. That gives it a capability of recording something on the other side of the world where you don't have a tracking station.Ingenious at the time.

Kool and Canadian.

[img]cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Fidel

Ya see? Capitalism really does work!!!

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Gee guys, I guess the fact that we taxpayers forked over a billion bucks for this RADARSAT thing and that it is now controlled by private corporations that happily turn over the data to the US military and intelligence agencies so they can wage cheaper and deadlier foreign wars (and keep tabs on anyone at home who challenges them) is something we can all feel darn good about because... hey... RADARSAT also gives us cute pictures of the earth (we need more nerd candy!), and hey... we can now more easily monitor just how rapidly we are destroying the entire planet from top to bottom (yippee, watch those icecaps melt away before your very eyes!), and hey... best of all... it's a nifty Canadian gizmo (like that cool Arrow warplane toy that those bully American boys stole from us).

RADARSAT should make all of our patriotic little Canadian hearts beat furiously with glowing pride. Man are we ever bloody ingenious! It's us who shoulf get the Nobel Prize for War (and hypocrisy while they're at it!)

And man, all that crap about RADARSAT-3 having a new button installed for the "Death Star" taser weapon function is total baloney. That's not going to be installed until RADARSAT-4!

Come on guys, be real, "Death Star"? This thing will ONLY be used by Canada to HELP humanity, not to hurt anyone. Canadians are way above all that. We're way up in space beyond that, eh? Look at it this way, the RADARSAT taser function is just a space platform for tasers. That's all. We can be sure it will only be used by the RCMP to Polish the floors at Canadian airports. And, maybe for mopping up in Haiti after our successful coup there in 2004.

That so called RADARSAT-3 "Death Star" laser function is what our government much more accurately calls "Life Star." Read the fine print and get your terms straight! Our government would never hurt anybody, unless there was some very excellent reason, like it was making money for their corporate friends or something.

Those "Life Star" lasers aren't for killing people. Get a freaking grip my friends! Those LIFE lasers are for simultaneously slicing bread and baloney. We are just going to be making yummy sandwiches for our troops to hand deliver to starving (yet still smiling) kids all over Afghanistan, Haiti, Kosovo and... starting sometime soon... maybe Iran too.

Be realistic, Canada will remain the world's biggest peace loving country, unless and until war is found to be more profitable, which -- as we all we all know -- it bloody isn't. No one ever made a cent from wars, if they did, we'd be fighting them all the time, or making the gizmos for someone else to do so.

RADARSAT is great! Enjoy!

Abdul_Maria

[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/33-35.pdf]http://coat....

my question, how do you know RadarSat is being used by the American military, was answered by that link above.

"MacDonald Dettwiler" - one of the first names that came to mind.

Lo and behold, MDA is the prime or one of the prime contractors for RadarSat.

New Question - to what extent will RadarSat2 be used in real-time in military operations ?

that is, will it (A) just be used as a general surveillance satellite, taking pictures that end up at Microsoft Terraserver and/or the US Pentagon, or - (B) will it be used at the bequest of the US, where the US Military says, "Yo, Radarsat, we need pictures of Iran at this particular time", and the satellite moves into a position above Iran, as an integral part of the US War Machine ?

thank you for the article. very, very interesting.

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: Abdul_Maria ]

Abdul_Maria

edit

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: Abdul_Maria ]

anchovy breather

Posting your disgust about RADARSAT over the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet]internet.[/url]

If I didn't know of literally hundreds of peaceful projects using RADARSAT technology maybe I'd see where you're coming from a little more.

ed for grammar

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

anchovy breather

quote:


And man, all that crap about RADARSAT-3 having a new button installed for the "Death Star" taser weapon function is total baloney. That's not going to be installed until RADARSAT-4!

Come on guys, be real, "Death Star"? This thing will ONLY be used by Canada to HELP humanity, not to hurt anyone. Canadians are way above all that. We're way up in space beyond that, eh? Look at it this way, the RADARSAT taser function is just a space platform for tasers. That's all. We can be sure it will only be used by the RCMP to Polish the floors at Canadian airports. And, maybe for mopping up in Haiti after our successful coup there in 2004.


The Americans already have the [url=http://www.haarp.net/]Space Taser.[/url]

Webgear

Richard Sanders

There are better commercial grade satellites available than RADARSAT-2 however they are very expensive to rent or own, or download imagery especially in time sensitive situations.

Sort of like renting heavy airlift aircraft, when any county wants to use them, there always seems to be a line up for the aircraft.

I would guess that the American military has more advance than RADARSAT-2, why would they want a Canadian platform anyway?

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

RADARSAT-2 is in a class of its own.

It is to my knowledge the first and only space-based platform with GMTI capability. (See links below for details on what this means.)

GMTI will make RADARSAT useful in premptive, first-strike attacks against targets in Iran. Like SAM missile launchers that the US might suspect would be used by those cheeky Iranians to attack US (and Cdn?) warships or warplanes as they engage in "shock-and-awe" style bombardments made famous in Iraq (2003). A war with Iran will make Iraq look like a cakewalk.

This GMTI technology -- until now -- was only available on aerial platforms (aboard Unmanned Aerial Vehicles)

If anyone knows of any other satellite with GMTI capability please let us know. When I was doing my research last year, RADARSAT was hailed as the only satellite that would have this.

I've written some detailed articles about RADARSAT that are all available through links in the article posted yesterday.
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/RADARSAT-2.htm]http://coat.ncf.ca/RADARSAT-2.htm[/url]

Read the whole mess of articles here:
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/58.html]http://coat.ncf.ca/our_...

Here are just a few of the heavily-footnoted articles that I've written about RADARSAT.

The last article listed below details a mobile US military satellite receiving station that has set up in warzones like Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. These things called Eaglevision allow US warfighters to get access to RADARSAT data directly from the field of battle. However they don't just downlink the data to the battlefield. Eaglevision also allows the US military to actively control RADARSAT:

* RADARSAT, Missile Defense and the Holy Grail
* GMTI and Theater Missile Defense
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/14-18.pdf]http://coat....

* From CAESAR to MAJIIC: How RADARSAT plugs Canada in to future NATO-led wars
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/19-23.pdf]http://coat....

* U.S. Warfighters get their Hands on RADARSAT Data
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/33-35.pdf]http://coat....

* Meet Eagle Vision: U.S. Military Bridgehead to RADARSAT
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/36-38.pdf]http://coat....

Abdul_Maria

quote:


The last article listed below details a mobile US military satellite receiving station that has set up in warzones like Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. These things called Eaglevision allow US warfighters to get access to RADARSAT data directly from the field of battle. However they don't just downlink the data to the battlefield. Eaglevision also allows the US military to actively control RADARSAT

so, it sounds like RadarSAT is part of the eyes & ears of the system that American military contractors refer to as the "digital battefield."

i know that AEGIS ties in to this, also.

Richard, any idea on how RadarSAT relates to AEGIS ? are they "concurrent technologies", is one derived from the other, etc.

P.S. ncf.ca looks like a great Internet provider. any idea on how to look at an example of their Bulletin Board software ?

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: Abdul_Maria ]

Webgear

Aegis and the digital battlefield are two separate and completely different systems.

Aegis is naval based offensive/defensive weapon system and the latter is an *army system* for tracking army units.

Edit: * This the theory in a nut shell, there is a lot more to it.

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

anchovy breather

Perhaps the only reason that you've encountered GMTI only with RADARSAT is because military specific satellites tend to be top secret of their capabilities?

anchovy breather

Richard maybe you can direct some sort of campaign voicing your concerns to the private company responsible for distributing the imagery commercially.

[url=http://gs.mdacorporation.com/about/index.asp]MDA Information, previously RADARSAT, Intl.[/url]

anchovy breather

Plenty of legit work is enabled because of the RADARSAT SAR. I'd say the ratio is tilted much more towards these than it is to the military industrial machine.

And, well, Canada is world recognized for it's mostly civilian and scientific geomatics innovations, including the RADARSAT. That isn't something that should be just dismissed.

sgm

quote:


Originally posted by anchovy breather:
[b]Plenty of legit work is enabled because of the RADARSAT SAR. I'd say the ratio is tilted much more towards these than it is to the military industrial machine. [/b]

According to the president of RADARSAT International, speaking before a House of Commons Committee, about 35% of RADARSAT 1's work was for 'defence' purposes:

quote:

Mr. John Hornsby: Defence is probably about 35%. The others are all mapping, agriculture, environment, that type of thing--just very rough numbers.

A number of issues arising from these satellites' military capabilities became clear during the debate in 2005 over bill C-25, aka the RADARSAT Bill.

One important feature of this bill (later a law, the Remote Sensing Space Systems Act) was to give the government 'shutter control' over the satellite to make sure the 'wrong' parties didn't gain commercial access to sensitive imagery; additionally, the law was designed to give the government (and other designated parties, IIRC) 'priority access' to RADARSAT (or other) satellite imagery on demand.

This feature of the law assumes the satellite(s) may be pressed into military service by Canada (or allies) at crucial moments.

Webgear raises an important question about why the US would want to use this Canadian platform, when it may have superior platforms of its own.

In fact, RADARSAT-1 has already been [url=http://www.mdacorporation.com/news/pr/pr2001110101.html]called upon[/url] to serve the 'national security objectives' of the USA--when it produced a detailed 'Digital Elevation Map' of Colombia in late 2001 for NIMA, a US Department of Defense agency.

(One can imagine the national security objective without too much trouble, I think.)

In addition, a state such as the US may wish to have 'priority access' to an imaging platform for reasons other than making direct use of it: the US has been known to exercise 'financial shutter control,' over commercial imaging satellites, buying up all available imagery in order to control or prevent its flow to others, for a range of reasons which are, again, not hard to imagine.

Richard S has done some important work on this topic, providing a useful complement and critique to msm stories that tend to stress only benign aspects of this kind of technology in a 'Gee-whiz!' sort of tone.

I think it's an area of research that will only become more and more important as the century rolls on, so I hope Richard continues his important work on it.

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: sgm ]

anchovy breather

Here's a [url=http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/Bills_ls.asp?Parl=38&Ses=1&ls=C25]link[/url]
to the Remote Sensing bill.

If the NIMA people wanted a 30m DEM of Colombia, there are plenty of ways to get the data. It probably just means they're too cheap or needed it quickly, rather than find the good data. Of course, you hinted that it might be used for the drug war. I agree that things like this should be kept an eye on and regulated.

If someone wanted to build a DEM of the US or Canada, they could quite easily with freely available data. I built a 3d model of the Kananaski region that I was going to post online when the G8 or whatever meeting it was that was going on at the time was happening. It might have been derived from RADARSAT data. I don't remember.

[ 15 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

anchovy breather

/nerd self indulgence alert
Here is some info about 30m elevation modeling data that used to be freely downloadable. Now there's a small cost.

[url=http://www.terrainmap.com/rm22.html]ASTER[/url]

anchovy breather

Doh, NIMA regulates it's distribution outside of the US (from my nerd link). On a personal and professional level learning this data isn't as available as it was previously is kind of sad:

quote:

(Release of the full resolution (30m) data outside of the United States was blocked by NIMA. However, the 90m data is a major advance over the 1km resolution DTED0 data referred to in the article.)

//self indulgent nerd off

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

It never ceases to amaze me when some people say totally irrelevent things like this:

"If I didn't know of literally hundreds of peaceful projects using RADARSAT technology maybe I'd see where you're coming from a little more." (Anchovy Breather)

"Plenty of legit work is enabled because of the RADARSAT SAR. I'd say the ratio is tilted much more towards these than it is to the military industrial machine." (Anchovy Breather)

Dear Mr Anchovy Breather,

Please try putting yourself for a minute (if you can handle it) into the shoes of an innocent victim in an illegal war of aggression.

Let's go back to 2003. Imagine... just imagine... that you're an Iraqi and your Mom, Dad, two sisters and half the people in your neighbourhood were just massacred yesterday in an aerial bombardment by a US warplane that used RADARSAT data downlinked by Eaglevision I.

You don't know it but Canadian companies funded by the govt (read Cdn taxpayers) also played a part in supplying many of the major components for the bomber and all of the other major weapons delivery systems invading your country.

The aircraft carrier offshore was escorted safely into place through the Persian Gulf by multibillion dollar Canadian frigates.

The AWACs plane has Cdn personnel guiding the bombers flight as well as the fighters protecting the bomber's mission. They too are are also jammed full with Cdn technology.

CPP pension funds are invested in all the prime contractors for all the major weapons systems that are shocking and awing you and your countryfolk.

If you had internet connectivity or knew what that was you could access these details about Cdn complicity in the Iraq war:
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/Slides/3in1/006.htm]http://coat.ncf.ca/Slides/3in1/00...

But you don't because you are a poor Iraqi kid buried under a pile of rubble.

You don't know anything of Cdn complicity but then again neither do the Cdns who paid for it all. But you have an excuse. You are an Iraqi kid. Why should you know this about the Cdn technology that is helping to kill hundreds of thousands of people around the world.

You don't have time to think about that Cdn complicity in war because your arm has just been severed off in the blast and you are buried under a heap of rubble. You are screaming in pain.

You then hear a soothing voice coming through the shattered pieces of concrete. Someone is reassuring you that Canada is generally a very good country. That 64.5% of the time it does swell stuff.

They are telling you not to be angry at the Cdn companies that are profitting from the production of communications equipment, targetting radar, landing gear, and a hundred other major electronic components that are integral to the war machine assaulting you and your friends and family.

The voice tells you that those Cdn companies also make personal computer gizmos for nerdy geeks. This of course makes you feel much better.

The voice then tells you that the CPP invests more money in nonmilitary stuff than military, that only 2.5 Billion of Cdns pension money is invested in war industries and that those war industries generally also make some damn good stuff too.

The voice explains that the AWACs personnel directing the warplane that leveled your town likes gardening and has a pet dog name Pal, that he mostly does nice things but only ocasionally helps to kill innocent people. So you don't fell angry with him anymore either.

Then the voice through the rubble tells you that the 1300 Cdn troops aboard the Cdn fleet in the Persian Gulf that escorted the US aircraft carriers into place so they could massacre your fellow countrymen, well those Cdns are a swell bunch of guys too and they mostly don't kill people, because usually they are just swabbing the decks and drinking beer, and it's only a small part of their time that they spend escorting US warships into place for battle.

And the voice says don't be concerned about that RADARSAT thing that provided the targetting data because gee it does mostly good stuff like monitor the rainforest in Brazil and look for minerals to be exploited by nice Cdn mining companies that never hurt a fly, and that RADRSAT is a nifty piece of gear, man.

And the voice tells you that RADARSAT's company reps have admitted in Parliament that a mere 35% of their data goes to the military. And you hear the voice say that only 15% of RADARSAT 1's time is given free to the US govt because they launched it, plus they get all data for free after 6 months, plus they can buy whatever else they need above and beyond all that, and they have spent millions getting maps made of the entire world, the entire world, not just Columbia and Iraq and Afghanistan and other warzones.)

So you lie there dying but feeling 65% good because you know now that Canada is a swell place and Canadians are a swell bunch because they mostly do good stuff and only ocassionally help massacre innocent people like you.

Then you swear to God that if you ever get out alive you are going to go out and find a Canadian soldier, or a Cdn geek, or just any fine Cdn you can and that you are going to go up to them with a big smile and just give them a really big hug, and thank them, and kiss them on the cheek, and wish them a nice day and then pull the cord attached to the stash of dynamite hidden in your backpack.

The logic of what I'm saying in this dramatic way is not lost on Canada's military geniuses.

Major-General Andrew Leslie, when he was Canada's military commander in Afghanistan, in the summer of 2005 publicly said:

"Afghanistan is a 20-year venture. There are things worth fighting for. There are things worth dying for. There are things worth killing for."

Then he said this, and this is the juicy part that shows how smart he is:

"Every time you kill an angry young man overseas, you're creating 15 more who will come after you."

Yes, Leslie and if we go by that logic, in about 5 easy steps we will have killed the entire population of the planet because they keep coming at us!

A crime is a crime. Period.

It does not matter two wits if the crime is committed by someone who has spent most of their free time doing nice things to help others.

So please stop coming up with the totally irrelevent fact that RADARSAT does good stuff too.

All that good stuff that we Cdns have done through RADARSAT does not make up in any way for all the harm we have done through RADARSAT, at least not in the eyes of our many innocent victims.

Ratnik S.

Richard. You seem to think that a private satellite-launch company in Russia can launch US and Canadian satellites strictly for financial gain and not be accountable to the Russian Gvt if those satellites are being used by the US to undermine Russian territorial security. This seems to me to be an incredible claim. Could Russia pay NASA to launch their surveillance satellites without Pentagon approval? Has it happened? Are you saying only the Russians are stupid enough to allow this to happen? Or, are the privatization-geeks in full control over there? Putin is putting gas and oil back under state-control but you seem to think the Russian military (in Baikonur) may be over-privatized in effect? I'm sorry, but I don't think the Russians are blithely unaware of what might be going on right under their noses. Or do you have proof that the Russians really are this avidly and greedily stupid? If so, I would like to see what that proof is. In other words, are your ideas about US military abuse of Canadian technology true or just feared that this might be true or someday become true if our dept of external affairs falls asleep at the switch? I must thank you, however, for stimulating these exchanges on this subject.

anchovy breather

The military is purchasing the data commercially. MDI is responsible for distributing the RADARSAT data internationally.

Why should no one get to use the data, irregardless of the value it has for peaceful purposes?

If you are that much of a puritan when it comes to 'defense appications' of technology, why do you use the internet?

Eaglevision I uses commercial satellite imagery, including SPOT data. Fidel succinctly identified that this a market allowed activity (in his own way), so instead of decrying the technology, it would make more sense to me to criticize the paradigm that allows the technology to be used for things you consider 'war crimes'.

Even though it is used to see under adverse weather, I cannot see how satellite imagery from RADARSAT can be used for targeting purposes all on it's own.

I am all for the work Richard has done investigating this, but to me you seem to be attacking the technology as something inherently 'evil' and no one should use it, because it can be bought up commercially by military somewhere.

[ 16 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

[ 16 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

anchovy breather

And please, Richard, Mr Anchovy Breather just sounds ridiculous. No formalities needed.

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

No where in anything I've written on RADARSAT -- (and that is, I'm afraid to say, several tens of thousands of words) have I ever said, not even once (correct me if I'm wrong) that I am: "attacking the technology [RADARSAT] as something inherently 'evil' and no one should use it."

So, let me make the following clarification for Anchovy Breather, or anyone else who isn't going to actually read what I've written but is just going to imagine that I am a "Luddite" (as suggested by someone aptly named "500_Apples").

I am not attacking the technology itself. My focus has been on exposing its extensive use by the military, particularly by the US and NATO in real live killing wars and their use of the data to prepare for future wars.

Repeat: I have focused my critique of the RADARSAT system on its use warfighting applications.

I have criticised the media and govt for playing up the peaceful uses and playing down or hiding the military uses.

This has happened again here. The peaceful use gets played up, the militaryt side gets played down, exactly in a parallel way to what the media and govt have done.

My critique has also focused on the fact that Cdn taxpayers forked over 85-90% of the bill for RADARSAT's $1.2 billion but the government has turned over the control and operation of the technology and the sale of RADARSAT to private hands. It is run by "for profit" corporate interests. It was given away! We have no control of it. Not that our govt could have been trusted to keep the technology out of military hands either, but we might have had a chance of having some democratic control over the thing if they hadn't given it away to the companies that are run by their corporate buddies.

Control of who can access and manipulate these satellites (as the US military can do directly from battlefields using Eaglevision) and who can buy the data and what they can use it for is at the crux of the problem, not the satellite technology itself.

I shouldn't have to repeat all this here. It is already all written very clearly in what I've already written, if people care to read it.

[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/58.html]http://coat.ncf.ca/our_...

But I suspect I will continue to be called a Luddite by those who read a headline or two and a few lines into my words and then use their active imaginations to create false impressions of what I've said and then to conveniently attack those ludicrous ideas online.

And, by the way, I would be proud to be a real Luddite. I am not worth of that term.

Luddites were NOT against technology.

This again is another "straw man" created by people who haven't bothered to actually study the history of this amazing social movement. The Luddites opposed the social injustice caused by the industrial revolution.

These were people, largely weavers who worked at home in their own "cottages." They were using very complex looms. They weren't against technology, they made their living using copmplex technology, ie., the looms, etc.

They were against the destruction of their livelihoods, their "cottage industries."

They were hurt by the rise of factories and industrial capitalism. They lost their jobs, and they had to then work under horrific and appalling conditions in these factories to line the pockets of big capitalists.

The Luddites represented the interests of the common folk who had became virtual slaves to the factory machines. The Luddites were independent self employed craftspeople who produced beautiful things. They became revolutionaries because their way of life had been destroyed by capitalist greed.

However, they have been turned into a cartoon image of someone who blindly attacks all technology. It is so sad that so many people have fallen for the popular mytholgy that Luddites were opposed to all technology.

What's worse, most people don't know the first thing about what the Luddites really stood for.

Their real history has been destroyed and covered up and turned into a mockery. It is a terrible shame.

Similiarly, please don't ignore what I've actually written and just post silly notes pretending for instance that I oppose technology in and of itself.

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

For more about the Luddites, read this excellent book called

Rebels against the Future: The Luddites and Their War on the Industrial Revolution: Lessons for the Machine Age

It's by Kirkpatrick Sale.

It is actually online here:
[url=http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=kNnmrkJFQ5cC&dq=kirkpatrick+sale+... about Luddites[/url]

[ 09 January 2008: Message edited by: Richard Sanders ]

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Ratnik S's comments question whether a company in Russia would be allowed to launch RADARSAT if it was really and truly being used by the US and NATO military forces.

He asks:
"is your ideas about US military abuse of Canadian technology true or just feared."

Read what I've written and the many sources I've quoted and judge for yourself. I have relied on govt and corporate sources only as the peace movement and progressive forces have written virtually nothing about RADARSAT.

Let me assure you that it is an absolute fact that US and NATO forces are using RADARSAT. That is well documented by my research and there is no denying it.

My articles on this matter don't really examine the issue of who launched RADARSAT-2. That was a point that was beyond the scope of my research. (Though I detailed how NASA launched RADARSAT-1 and therefore got to control about 15% of "our" satellite's time and got access to all the archived data.

So, that said I'm no expert on who launced R-2.

However, I do know that RADARSAT-2 was not launched from Russia. It was launched from Kazakhstan, which -- like Russia -- was a former state within the USSR.

Now they are separate countries with separate governments.

RADARSAT-2 launched by Starsem which is a Soyuz company. It is an amalgam of many European space corporations that are in cahoots with the Russian Federal Space Agency (created just after the USSR fell apart). The RFSA is a junior partner in the operation.

Read more here:
[url=http://www.starsem.com/starsem/founding.htm]http://www.starsem.com/stars...

As for Ratnik's question of whether "the Russian military (in Baikonur) may be over-privatized" I have no idea about Russian military presence there, privatised or not.

I know there are large US military bases in the neighbouring countries of Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. I believe the Kazakhstan govt allowed US military to land and refuel on their way to Afghanistan, and that the US was trying to get a base there. Maybe they succeeded I don't know.

My focus was on the military use of this Cdn satellite not who launched it, that could perhaps be a different stream for discussion on babble.

Abdul_Maria

quote:


This again is another "straw man" created by people who haven't bothered to actually study the history of this amazing social movement. The Luddites opposed the social injustice caused by the industrial revolution.

These were people, largely weavers who worked at home in their own "cottages." They were using very complex looms. They weren't against technology, they made their living using copmplex technology, ie., the looms, etc.

They were against the destruction of their livelihoods, their "cottage industries."


i've worked since the early '80s as a design engineer in Silicon Valley.

questioning technology does not make you a "Luddite".

having grown up in the '60's, when my Dad was a chemical engineer and paid me to do the arithmetic for some of his consulting work, well first of all i wasn't offended when he paid $900 for a calculator, although it did put me out of work.

but i would say we're not any better off now than we were in the '60's, as a society. technology has not, in total, improved our lives.

there's really not that big a difference between an 8 track and an iPod, or a land-line and a cell phone. it is possible to play chess & read books, if you have a year without television.

of course, being an engineer, i am easily fascinated by all these toys. along the way, i helped to design a few of them.

America has a big problem with technology, namely the inability to manage effluents (waste products). one false solution was NAFTA. i have watched a few factories in the US dis-assembled, and the manufacturing sent to Tijuana or Taiwan or Alabama (which, the engineer from Alabama told me, was offshore, without explaining exactly what he meant.)

how does technology help us if we go around the world polluting all the drinking water sources, and the land ?

another example - the American nuclear industry. what do they do with their toxic waste ? turn it into munitions, and spread it all over Iraq and other countries during military attacks.

if that's technological progress, then i'm a Luddite.

and, to bring it full loop, it sounds like those American military forces are using - RadarSat.

bliter

Richard,

Your lengthy URL causes such extreme side scroll as to make it impossible to read the thread - even at reduced text size.

Do you think you, or a mod, can correct it? Thanks.

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

I think I agree with everything Abdul_Marie said in his latest post, except this:

quote:

Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
[b]
questioning technology does not make you a "Luddite".
[/b]

This, I guess, uses the contemporary but inaccurate view of what a Luddism was all about.

In reality, the questioning of technology is exactly what Luddites *were* all about!

I think they even literarly staged creative trials where they put technology on the stand accused it of crimes and questioned it. This was brilliant street theatre. They were masters of symbolic action.

And yes they destroyed some technology too, but only the machines that were destroying peoples' lives. They were chiefly trying to raise awareness and make people think about the role that technology was playing in undermining some of the advances that had been made in people's lives that were being undone by industrialism.

Now, that period of rampant industrialization is commonly refered to as a "revolution," while the Luddites are seen as backwards, regressive, conservative simpletons who wanted to turn back the clock and hated new things.

Sadly funny how the way history is written by those in power can turn everything on its head and distort so completely the reality of what happened in the past.

Perhaps this has taken the discussion of RADARSAT way off in a bizarre direction.

If that is the case, I am sorry.

However it still seems appropriate considering what's been said about my focused critique of RADARSAT's military uses.

Webgear

[url=http://tinyurl.com/2oc8dz]TerraServer and Ottawa[/url]

Image Information

Image Date: 4/11/2007
Resolution: 0.6 meters
Provider: GlobeXplorer
Meters/Pixel: 5 meters

[i]You can zoom in for excellent detail.[/i]

[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: Webgear ]

anchovy breather

Okay, I've come around to at least one of your points Richard. Sometimes for a larf I read Stockwell Days 'column'. The thing I was reading today, he mentioned the RADARSAT-2 and had a flash animation link to [url=http://www.radarsat2.info]the RS2 product site.[/url]. Again no mention under applications of the defense uses, same as the other link earlier on. So I'll concede that they downplay this.

It also mentions on the site that this is not classified data being produced, and it is civilian. So the problem you have is with the 'market' selling to military. They do sell this data to governments all over the world, and to private actors too.

I'll also concede upon looking that the new technology, that the object detection/recognition would probably have targeting applications for military purposes. I'm guessing though that any military in the world can commercially acquire imagery, unless Stockwell Day or whomever decides they are a national security risk to Canada.

Would you suggest, Richard, that perhaps MDA Information should make it's defense clients more transparent and out in the open to public scrutiny? Perhaps an amendment the Remote Sensing bill to prohibit certain non-civilian uses?

I'm not sure how the feds specifically monitor MDAI business clients. Perhaps if I get a chance I'll do some digging. Surely they must somehow, if they don't want the data being actively used against Canadian national security. Perhaps they are solely relying on their 'distributors' MDA to keep them informed of anything shifty. Which would be kinda shifty itself in my opinion.

As someone who works in a semi-related discipline I know plenty of people excited to use the data for plenty of if not good, at least not malevolent reasons. So anyway, hope this discussion goes on a bit.

edited lots cuz im dumb
[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

[ 17 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

It's nice to know that Anchovy_Breather has:

"concede[d] upon looking that the new technology, that the object detection/recognition would probably have targeting applications for military purposes"

In my research, which is footnoted to within an inch of its life, I have cited chapter and verse from dozens and dozens of US military, NATO, corporate and other right-wing (and therefore "reliable") sources, that both RADARSAT-1 and -2 are being used for military purposes, including targetting functions.

Read what I've written about GMTI. That's what it's all about and all the sources are very upfront that this is for use in theatre missile defence, i.e., in protecting warships, troops, and weapons systems that are engaged in battle.

Simulations of RADARSAT-2 data have been used for many years in NATO exercises for Theatre Missile Defense exercises. See what I've written about CAESAR and MAAJIC.
[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/58.html]http://coat.ncf.ca/our_...

In other words, military forces have been very busy practicing using RADARSAT-2 data for many years. They have been anxiously preparing for its arrival on the market so they can use it in wars. It has now arrived.

IPOne place they will likely use it is in Iran because Iran has Russian TELs with Scub Bs, so do N.Korea and Libya, Syria, Yemen, and others.

The other thing is that Anchovy_Breather and many others refer to warfighting as "defence." I have nothing against "defence." I suffer from the illusion that ALL people and countries have a right to defend themselves, even those people who are trying in vain to defend themselves from us. I believe this is recognized by the UN as a right of all nations, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps only we are allowed to defend ourselves and others are supposed to just let us invade without a fight. I'll have to check into that.

Anyway, I believe that what we folks in the peace/antiwar movement all have a slight problem with is the use of military technology (notice I didn't say "defence" technology) being used to massacre innocent civilans in illegal offensive wars.

Since the early 1980s when I started devoting myself full time to antiwar research, writing and activism, I have refused to use the word "defence" as an adjective for industries, budgets, ministers, analysts and departments, etc., that are dedicated to the waging of wars. The correct adjectives for use in these cases are "war" or "military."

"Defence" is the euphemism that they use to speak of themselves. It is designed to cover up, whitewash and sugarcoat what they are doing.

It really bugs me when progressive folks get sucked into this use of the terminology (propaganda) that has been put out there as a way of making war industries sound like something that we can't object to unless we are therefore objecting to "defence."

Again, I have no problem with legitimate defence.

I am against illegal, unjust wars that are grabs for billions of dollars worth of resources, or to change regimes to oil the wheels of resource extraction in order to line the pockets of corporate hucksters.

RADARSAT *IS* a tool in the WAR-fighters' kit.

There is no question whatsoever about that.

Again, its all thoroughly documented in what I've written, if anyone bothers to read it.

Doug

So are maps. Does this mean we should stop publishing them? Remote sensing has many possible uses - it happens that most of them are good or neutral: monitoring the extent and health of forests, examining if regional planning is working as it should, detecting underground water, and much more. The military can still get most of the information it needs other, more expensive ways such as by flying reconnaissance missions. It's everyone else who loses out without the availability of satellite data.

anchovy breather

Reading, instead of quickly perusing, some of the Press For Conversion stuff actually filled in a bunch of stuff for me.

[url=http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Articles/11.pdf]This url[/url] on the standing committee regarding the RADARSAT bill. The Bloc MP that wanted an amendment on the bill forbidding RADARSAT technology from being sold to foreign interests, only to be outvoted by the Libs and Cons. I was always for the public retention of RADARSAT-2, and I liked how Alexa McDonough questioned the wisdom of the privitization.

Admittedly, I assume most nerds who work with satellite data are mostly concerned with access and cost for their own projects. The politics of a lot of this passed me by for some reason, and I sometimes pay attention to that stuff. Operative word being sometimes I guess. I assume lots of remote sensors and geographers probably never paid too much attention either.

Anyways, cheers, Richard.

PS. if you fix the side-scroll on your luddite link up a few, more people might read this thread. Sidescroll referring to the lengthy url which screws with some peoples monitors and causes heads to explode and threads to be widely ignored.

[ 18 December 2007: Message edited by: anchovy breather ]

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Thanks a b...

I didn't know what the heck a side scroll was.

Rather than fixing that, I advise anyone interested to just google:

luddite AND "kirkpatrick sale"

They'll find a wealth of data online.

Buddy Kat

quote:


Originally posted by anchovy breather:
[b]
I assume lots of remote sensors and geographers probably never paid too much attention either.

[/b]


Actually they are quite aware of whats going on but sometimes their job requires secrecy on some level. I can say it sickens many to see their tax dollars go to serving a foreign nation above their own and the demoralization is even worse but there is nothing they can do about it. Canadians fall for this neocon bullshit and they get what they deserve...Believe me it's a lot worse than depicted in this thread.

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Buddy Kat:
[b]

Believe me it's a lot worse than depicted in this thread.[/b]


Now there's something I really want to hear more about!

Please Buddy can you spare a dime?

Or at least maybe two more cents worth? Please share some details to shed some light on what you mean by things being "a lot worse" than what's been said here?

I am always keen to know more dirt on RADARSAT as it is such a good example (possibly the biggest) of Canadian complicity in the US war machine.

cheers
Richard

Buddy Kat

Basically without violating any oaths etc. Everything is dictated by the US...every single bit of data is up for grabs. That data can be used for all kinds of purposes..I would encourage anyone interested to educate themselves on the different types of scanners or bands on these satellites and what kind of info can be collected. It's quite mesmerizing actually and the use of that data is only limited by your imagination.

Once you know the type of info that's collected you can pretty well connect the dots and figure out the economic , geographic, even social implications of that info. It makes the government look treasonous in many respects, especially when it's Canadian info that's given away or sold to foreign countries that can use that info to undermine Canadian company's etc.

The most sickening aspect is Canadian tax payers pay to be used by the US. Americans must think we are really stupid that's for sure.

anchovy breather

Not RADARSAT, but still marginally related to the thread I'd say.

[url=http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/19/chicago-police-ask-y.html]Maps = possible terrorists[/url] (via Boing Boing).

[img]http://www.boingboing.net/see_something.jpg[/img]

Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture

Who you gonna call?

Can I call 911 if I learn that a cult-like organization that has killed millions of innocent people during my lifetime alone [ie., the US military] has used Canadian technology [ie., RADARSAT] that I helped pay for [ie., with my taxes] to scan the entire surface of the planet?

Such a call to 911 would make ME a suspect!

Why?

Because I, like you, should NOT be monitoring what they are doing!!

This is an invasion of THEIR private rights to run and control with impunity, countless criminal rackets throughout the world.

Apparently we should praise them for doing wonderful things with RADARSAT and then inform on anyone who tries to look into the horrific misuse of this Canadian technology.

Abdul_Maria

quote:


In reality, the questioning of technology is exactly what Luddites *were* all about!

well, then i am a Luddite.

i think when we are debating the details at this level of detail, we're approx. 99% in agreement.

one thing that was interesting during my time in Silicon Valley was to see the crossover between the military and civilian technology.

you can learn a lot by taking apart cell-phone base stations sold by the big cell-phone manufacturers.

Buddy Kat

quote:


Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
[b]

well, then i am a Luddite.

i think when we are debating the details at this level of detail, we're approx. 99% in agreement.

one thing that was interesting during my time in Silicon Valley was to see the crossover between the military and civilian technology.

you can learn a lot by taking apart cell-phone base stations sold by the big cell-phone manufacturers.[/b]


I just have to ask...Is it true that within every cell phone is a chip that gives it the ability to act as a bug and relay the data even when the phone appears to be off?

Apparently the only way to disable it is too remove the battery. Urban myth or fact?

Abdul_Maria

many cell-phones have that tracking capability, similar to GPS. GPS can track within 50 meters or 1 meter, depending on the equipment used.

this is the first i heard about it being used as a "bug", a clandestine listening device.

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