Babble needs trully anti-racist Moderators II
Wed, 2008-02-27 00:47
#1
Babble needs trully anti-racist Moderators II
Wed, 2008-02-27 00:47
#2
I'm hopping that this time, we will be able to have this honest dialoge.
Some of the members have said they don't know why some members think this is a racist and whitesupremacist board.
So I figure we can help to shed some light by providing evidence.
Our ancestors have taught us, that the truth will set us free, and lies will keep us in bondage.
I'm asking those who have evidence of obvious/blatant racist and white supremacy on this board to post links to those discussions, as well as provide an anti-racist deconstruction, in the hope that this loving exchange of truth will help to change the hearts and minds.
With that being said .. Let me begin. by linking to the previous thread
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000639]This is the original Babble Thread[/url]
Saga pretty much captured it here
quote:
quote [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img] riginally posted by remind:You are quite correct they don't get to speak here, and correctly so!
How can you possibly justify saying that abused men have no right to speak?
Is that supposed to be progressive?quote:
Those are your words with your inaccurrate perceptions of what was said.I though we had evolved past men being held up as the victims of women in society!
Even when it is true? How is that progressive?
Maybe you just don't know any women like this, and believe me, I wish I didn't either!
[ 26 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:03
#3
Things that make me go HMMMMMMM .. and stink of white supremacy.
Apparently if white people make the same point i just made,
-they are deep an insightfully
- but an African man makes the same very point the African needs to be shut down & silence.
Which translates to how dear you Negro, challenge the ideas of White feminist?
Now the very moderator (Michelle) that told me I was sexist, is now quoting material in the Feminism section that proves that I was not being sexist. Remind who has pretty much said How dare anyone say "white feminism" did not represent the views of racialised so-called minority women.
Heck the African was being told that he was misappropriating the voice of his sisters.
Yet, what else but white supremacy and Eurocentricity, would cause people to think that when a self-identified white person makes the exact same point, it is suddenly legitimate.
Apparently the powers that be at babble, have demonstrated with ought a shadow of doubt, that white supremacy is still being actively supported here.
Remember I did not start these threads. So they have chosen to prove themselves to be racist and white supremacist by the content of their character.
Which was the test that Martin Luther King, suggested we use, in his famous speech.
"This was written by Michelle a Moderator - I've been reading a bit recently (just articles and some internet research, no huge scholarly tomes or anything) about how women of colour have felt alienated by a predominantly white pro-choice movement that focuses mostly on abortion and the right for a woman to restrict her own fertility through birth control and abortion. "
If this was a chess match, i would have smiled, leaned back and said "check mate"
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001350]R... Women and Femminism -thread on Babble[/url]
"...Smith’s critique of mainstream feminist and environmentalist organizations comes from her experience organizing with Native women at the grassroots level. Working within the logic of capitalism, the mainstream organisations tend to further the colonization and marginalization of those women and land-based peoples whose interests they are mandated to represent. Smith maintains accountability to people of colour first and foremost, constantly questioning mainstream ideas of ‘inclusion’ that are supposed to assist and protect people of colour but fail to address their specific communities’ experiences of colonial violence and injustice.
Smith calls for an anti-colonial strategy that centrally addresses issues of gender violence. She consistently positions women of colour, and specifically Native women, at the centre of analysis and resistance. This contrasts with the mainstream model that positions the most empowered women in society at the centre — middle-class white women —and secondarily attempts to create a model of “inclusion” for everyone else. " You can read more about this here
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001346]S... Violence As a tool of Colonisation [/url]
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:15
#4
AfroHealer: [i]I think things should be like this[/i].
Interlocutor: I disagree.
AfroHealer: [i]That's because you're a white supremacist and just trying to tell me what to do. You're incapable of making rational arguments that aren't coloured by your cultural biases.[/i]
Interlocutor: So because I'm white, that means I can't make reasonably unbiased rational arguments on this subject?
AfroHealer: [i]Basically.[/i]
Interlocutor: But isn't suggesting that someone can't be rational because of their colour or heritage the very definition of "racist"?
AfroHealer: [i]How dare you play the victim? Now you're just trying to oppress me more. It's not about "skin", it's about your biases. Black people can be White Supremacists, too![/i]
Interlocutor: So, it isn't about race, it's about being right and wrong?
AfroHealer: [i]That's it![/i]
Interlocutor: Is there anything I could say that wouldn't be oppressing you with my white privilege? Is it possible for me to be right?
AfroHealer: [i]Well, you could just agree with me. Because you don't really have any authority to speak on this subject due to your White Supremacism, which only I can see.[/i]
Interlocutor: So in a roundabout way, I'm wrong no matter what I do, unless I agree with you. How convenient.
And on it goes.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:35
#5
Cueball
I don't think this is a very constructive approach to this problem here. No doubt Michelle and the other mods come to the table with the usual set of biases that all people have, different experience, different knoledge, different background, and a different relationship to the power structure, and so on. However, can't just go around trying to get people be removed from their jobs because they might be expressing unseen, and unrecognized biases. We all have them.
These things are very hard to pin down.
But I don't think calling for the removal of long serving people is helpful, in addressing these issues because the board chemistry is a delicate balance and finding people who are relatively even handed and knowledgable, and even willing to do this work are few and far between. Sometimes there are communications issues and the issue of perspective does get in the way, and this needs patience above all.
On the other hand I think everyone recognizes that the whiteness of the board is an issue. That said people are concious of this fact, and so there have been many efforts to encourgage people of colour to use and help shape the board.
I think BCG was invited by Michelle partly to allieviate this problem. She will be back we all hope, but doing this kind of thing on a highly argumentative board is very difficult, expecially when it is one that tries to be open and confront these issue. I think Babble should be proud of the fact that it is conscious of issues of race, and sexism and opression, and within the limits of what is basicly a volunteer project trying to accomodate numerous differing constiuencies, it does pretty well on this in comparison to others.
It is also a place that has evolved over the years, and through not a small amount of struggle, most people here remember "the trouble" two years ago. But here we are trying to make the best of it.
I think it was an excelent idea having Makwa take of the aboriginal issues forum, and this is indeed progress on the front of using the board to empower people of colour, and he is a great choice for the job. I hope too that BCG will be back, and maybe its an idea to diversify a little more and look for a volunteer mod for the Feminism forum. It would be especially good if that person were a woman of colour as well.
There are lots of ways to make the board better, and diversity is a big plus, but also the board is a constantly changing living thing, and I think Michelle and OG do a good job, under very stressful circumstances, on the whole.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:41
#6
Maybe you misseed the point where White supremacys is an ideology. Which is not limited to skin colour.
I have said this repeatedly, but it conveniently gets ignored. Most of the white supremacist that are the focuse of my work are dark skinned Africans and other racialised peoples.
SO i repeat .. This has nothing to do with the colour of your skin.
besides just incase you missed it, Race is a socail construct. In reality there are no "white" or "black" people.
Once uppon a time the Irish were black, today they are white. Italians were not white, today they are.
We are talking about the social constructed belief system, which is made up bull shit.
The negative and mind altering effect of this made up BS is powerful.
So now that we have that clear, I hope we can go back to the topic at hand.
If anyone can please break down, how I am obviously mistaken, I will gladly appologies.
So the challenge to all of you who believe that racism and white supremacy does not exist, is for you to take a deep breath, and let the facts speak for themselves.
I have faith. Prove to yourselves that you really want to deal with the truth, and are not just focused on image.
quote:
There is only one thing worse than having to admit privilege... the prospect of being stripped of it!
.by Martin Defuse from this thread [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000582]W... liberals have white privilede too!![/url]
This was followed up by this Gem by CMOT Dibble
quote:
But even Babble's anti oppresion campagners, swept up as they are by the adrenaline rush caused by their various struggles, can temporarily loose their humanity, and end up denying the suffering of others, while also ruining their chances of connecting with people outside of their own group.
Damm .. its like i don't even have to write anythign anymore, the proof is in the quality and thoughtful post.
There is so much of it, that i have to wonder why people continue to pretend like it does not exist.
Martin Again Provided this :
quote:
Wary of any isolation-inducing myopic adrenaline rush, I went back to Alex Jung's piece, who gently points out ten misunderstandings white liberals have about race
I dare say you may want to look into 3 and 7 yourself...quote:1. White supremacy? You mean white men in white sheets?
2. I'm not racist, but ...
3. Colorblind as a bat.
4. Kumbaya, multiculturalism!
5. It's not a "[insert racial group here]" issue as much as it is a "human" issue.
6. One of my best friends is [insert nonwhite group here]!
7. How could I have white privilege? I'm poor/female/gay/Polish/disabled!
8. The white savior complex.
9. "Good" people of color
10. All that guilt.
May the healing of our collective hears and minds continue.
Justice prevails, when we allow truth to shine through.
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:47
#7
Cueball
quote:
So the challenge to all of you who believe that racism and white supremacy does not exist, is for you to take a deep breath, and let the facts speak for themselves.
Just out of curiousity, can you find me the quote for this... someone saying "white supremacy does not exist"?
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:53
#8
Cueball
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:54
#9
So um let me get this straight.
Um your solution to create a welcoming space for more diverse and racialised people on this "so called" progressive board, is for us to just shut the hell up, and take the abuse like good house Negros?
Wow.
Remember this is not the space for you to dictate what tactic is appropriate or not. It's time for the majority, to learn to give up the power & privilege tendencies, and learn to respect diverse voices. Especially those that challenge our preconceived notions.
If we only listen to those that we agree with 100%, are we not pretty much doing exactly what we say is so wrong about the "fox news" approach to dialog?
I am hear, in the Afrocentric tradition of my ancestors, which has been passed down to me by my elders, to tell the truth.
We need to collectively learn to love the truth.
How can we move forward, if we spent all our energy trying to proved that everything that we learnt in the past is true and can never be challenged, then we are not really open to learn.
My elders and the spirit of my ancestors have taught me to operate from the principle that "everything i know to be true, could be false" .. this allows me to be open to learning & growing.
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:56
#10
quote:
The negative and mind altering effect of this made up BS is powerful.
Yup, and only AfroHealer has the antidote!
[i]Get your AFROHEAL here! This new, improved liberation miracle is guaranteed to strip away nasty white stains from the brain and skin, and protect against unwanted sexism, classism and all manner of cultural privilege. Just spread a little AFROHEAL on unwanted Whiteness and you too can be completely bias free in minutes! [/i]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:57
#11
Cueball
No I asked you to point out who said: "white supremacy does not exist"?
That is asking a question. It is the opposite of asking you to shut up. It is asking for a response.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:58
#12
quote:
I am hear, in the Afrocentric tradition of my ancestors, which has been passed down to me by my elders, to tell the truth.
What about the truth passed down by my elders? I guess there isn't any...
Wed, 2008-02-27 01:59
#13
Much respect Martin bro, One love!!
quote:
"I have met the enemy and it is us."Ken asks:
quote:...why have a greater emphasis on challenging white allies on their shortcomings, rather joining with those allies to fight the enemy?
Because it's not shortcomings, it's being on top of them. When it comes to race - and I could say the same for men vis-a-vis women -, we Whites cannot become allies of those we racialize until we recognize ourselves, in our present denial of the problem, AS the enemy, indeed the ones actioning the war. That against the racialized "minorities" you are criticizing for being suspicious. A rather vicious circular argument: "Agree that I'm you ally and I will, perhaps. Otherwise, you are the one making me an enemy."
It doesn't have to be that way, but it will as long as we diss them.
Indeed, "sincerity", understood as wholeness, self-identity, immunity to awareness that of our current make-up is part of what we need to fight, is the very problem.
bell hooks points out how surprised and angry Whites are when Whiteness is taken into account at all, when we are identified as Whites by non-Whites.
We have to share the load of what W.E. Dubois calls "double consciousness", by letting in a bit of awareness of how the people we Other perceive us.quote: There is a war between the men and between the women. There is a war between those who say there is a war and those who say that there isn't. (Leonard Cohen)
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:01
#14
Cueball
So what is it that you want? Who would this truly anti-racist moderator be?
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:05
#15
Cueball: That question was asked about 5 posts into the original thread. Still no answer. If I were doing a psychological workup on the thread starter, I'd venture that they're [i]desperate[/i] to do the job, and really believe they're the only one capable. But false modesty leads them to simply deny anyone else the right. Passive aggression 101. Now THAT's some mind altering bullshit.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:07
#16
Cueball
Well... maybe we should just leave it alone until that question is answered.
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:10
#17
Why reinvent the wheel, when we can just recycle! wonderful and eloquent post by fellow babblers.
Left turn much respect *hug* .. Continue to speak the truth
quote:
quote [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img] riginally posted by M. Spector:
Several people have said this before. What does it mean, exactly, to "check your privilege at the door"?Here's what it means to me (and it's a lot more than just "shut the fuck up and listen").
It means ensuring that poc/women get to be in positions of power within progressive organizations. It means that White people arn't ignoring every suggestion that poc make, that men arn't ignoring every suggestion that women make. It means women/poc getting to speak at rallies. It means that when people put up their hands to speak, the poc/women arn't left t'ill the end (as in having some sort of affirmative action plan that allows every other speaker to be a woman/poc if these people want to speak). It means allowing poc/women to take the lead in fighting for their issues (as in how the protest that blocked the deportation of Laibar Singh was entirely planned and executed by the south asian community). It means that when progressive organizations host a meal, the food of the non-western people in the organization is as available as western food. It means that a substantial portion of any music at events hosted by progressive organizations is either non-western, or is by poc.
quote:
quote [img]redface.gif" border="0[/img] riginally posted by martin dufresne:
To be aware of it and not lumber through discussions as if it weren't there on our back and the problem/enemy was merely out there for us prototypical good guys to discourse about from an allegedly universal POV?Exactly. That we recognize that poc/women may not experience events in the same way that we as white people/men do, but that their experiences are equally as valid as those of men/white people. In some cases the experiences of poc/women are in fact more valid than the experiences of white men. And recognizing that our analysis of events needs to include the experiences and viewpoints of poc/women.
Just in case anyone is blinded by the facts .. or by me being an Africa.
I was not just quoting myself.
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:17
#18
quote:
. In some cases the experiences of poc/women are in fact more valid than the experiences of white men.
Complete nonsense. Another case of the speaker claiming "objective authority" and arrogating themselves the right to validate speech.
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:19
#19
Cueball
quote:
originally posted by Left Turn:
It means ensuring that poc/women get to be in positions of power within progressive organizations. [SNIP]It means that a substantial portion of any music at events hosted by progressive organizations is either non-western, or is by poc.
quote:
originally posted by cueball:
I think it was an excelent idea having Makwa take of the aboriginal issues forum, and this is indeed progress on the front of using the board to empower people of colour, and he is a great choice for the job. I hope too that BCG will be back, and maybe its an idea to diversify a little more and look for a volunteer mod for the Feminism forum. It would be especially good if that person were a woman of colour as well.
quote:
originally posted by Afrohealer:
Maybe you misseed the point where White supremacys is an ideology. Which is not limited to skin colour.I have said this repeatedly, but it conveniently gets ignored. Most of the white supremacist that are the focuse of my work are dark skinned Africans and other racialised peoples.
[SNIP]
SO i repeat .. This has nothing to do with the colour of your skin.
So what is it going to be AH, it's not relevant what the skin colour of the moderators are, or is it important to give people of colour power within the organization?
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:35
#20
quote:
Remember this is not the space for you to dictate what tactic is appropriate or not. It's time for the majority, to learn to give up the power & privilege tendencies, and learn to respect diverse voices. Especially those that challenge our preconceived notions.
You're going to take us to school, huh? Perhaps it's time for you to "respect diverse voices" and accept challenges to your "preconceived notions"?
You don't own this space any more than I do, and you have no more right to dictate what is appropriate speech/tactics than I, or anyone else, do. Within the confines of the Babble policy statement, we have free reign to express our opinions, and that includes others telling you that your opinion/tactics are wrong.
You're simply looking for ways to speak without being questioned.
So, getting right back to topic: who do you nominate for Hall Monitor?
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:43
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]No I asked you to point out who said: "white supremacy does not exist"?That is asking a question. It is the opposite of asking you to shut up. It is asking for a response.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
I was hoping you would take the time to read the links that i provided, because they have ample examples of people saying that white supremacy does not exist or is not being practice by the moderators.
What i meant to say was that people say the Moderators are not supporting white supremacy on this board.
Or the idea that anyone (especialy self proclaimed racialsed peoples )who dares to say that something someone said is "white supremacist" has lost their damm mind, and is not worth having a serious dialoge with.
The basic idea is, if the well meaning white person say something white supremacist, racist or Eurocentric. It is not approriate for us to let them know what they said was offensive, in the hope that they will stop the racist commnets.
The focus is now switch to how bad the white person feels for being reminded about their white supremacy, and negligible attention is paid to the damage that is done to the person or people who were insulted by the statements.
It's white supremacy and Eurocentricity, that cause people to think that they should feel great about everything they do, even if they are being offensive, with their racist discourse.
The humane thing, is to feel like shit, when we realise that even though we meant well, we still managed to spew racist insults at the so-called "other".
Should the goal of truly progressives, not be to learn to be less racially insensitive?
Or should the practice of continue to fight for the collective rights of the majority members to practice white supremacy be the norm?
Especially since it directly violates the policies of this board.
Babblers have expressed interest in unlearning racist and white supremacy. In learning how to truly treat racialsed others as equal.
As 123467 said in the appropriately titled thread "how do we teach them" .. the same is true for racism, white supremacy and Eurocentricity.
quote:
When I first learned about feminism, I thought that I was up on it all. Boy, did I have a lot to learn. Conditioning that I had growing up was strong and it took a while for me to get it.So along that line, I kind of see Canadians as being like I was except they have alot to learn about Aboriginal people.
There are some fine people on these boards but like I was, they have been conditioned to think a certain way. So how do we teach them?
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000637]How do we teach them - babble discussion[/url]
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:52
#22
quote:
As 123467 said in the appropriately titled thread "how do we teach them" .. the same is true for racism, white supremacy and Eurocentricity.
The same goes for self-love.
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:56
#23
No one had to teach me about self-love. I've had a pretty good handle on it since I was about thirteen.
Wed, 2008-02-27 02:59
#24
I didn't post in the other thread because I didn't want to influence how the conversation goes. And I'm not posting this as a moderator, I'm posting this as a personal response.
The fact is, oldgoat and I are going nowhere. You are not going to succeed in trying to drive us out of our employment at babble. And no matter how many "babble moderators are racist neo-nazi white supremacists who need to be replaced by AfroHealer clones" threads you start, we are still going to be here.
Furthermore, we're not going to be driven away from every thread you post in when we get complaints about you passive-aggressively attacking people in them, out of fear that you might call us racist for stepping in.
There are acceptable ways of posting on babble, and there are unacceptable ways. We will continue to call you on it when you post in ways we consider unacceptable.
Eventually, this harrassment is going to stop. This is our workplace and we are not going to allow these constant, over-the-top attacks on us to continue. You are making my workplace hostile and you are libeling me (and I'm using my real name here, while you're hiding behind an alias, which is fine, that's allowed, but eventually you have to take some responsibility for what you're posting even if you're doing it behind an alias).
I will probably never convince you that this place is not white supremacist. I don't even really want to try to convince you of that, because I realize that perhaps to some degree it is because it has mostly white people posting here, and I realize there are a lot of "not getting it" type of posts. That doesn't give you free license to insult, harrass, and attack people here. Righteous anger only goes so far as an excuse for shitty behaviour.
So you're going to have to find a way to get along here and to call people on assumptions without personally attacking them. If you can't manage that, then I think you're just going to have to write us off as a bunch of racists and leave for greener internet pastures.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:19
#25
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]
Apparently if white people make the same point i just made,
-they are deep an insightfully- but an [i]African man[/i] makes the same very point the African needs to be shut down & silence.
Which translates to how dear you Negro, challenge the ideas of [i]White feminist[/i]?
Now the very moderator (Michelle) that told me I was sexist, is now quoting material in the Feminism section that proves that I was not being sexist. [/b]
I gave my head a collective shake.
I asked myself: "Does AH have a problem with a woman being in charge around here?"
Is that what these two threads are really about?
Why does he call himself an "African man", rather than just an "African" - or just a "human being"?
I asked myself, why do I need to keep being reminded about AH's sex over and over and over again?
I don't have the answers. I'm only started to get the questions.
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:22
#26
My real name is Ifo Ikede.
I live in Charlottetown Prince Edward island .. feel free to look me up.
I have nothing to fear, for I have spoken the truth.
I am not trying to drive anyone out of a job. You have already personal identified that you are not able (at the moment) to deal with moderating the anti-racism section of babble.
Those were your words not mine .. Heck .. I;m even going to quote you, before someon else here thinks I have lost my damm mind again.
quote:
Let me rephrase in a way that's a little less petulant. I was angry and frustrated in that last post, but I've calmed down now.I can't speak for oldgoat, just for myself. But the anti-racism forum has become impossible for me to moderate. Maybe it always was and I just didn't know it yet.
I think a hands-off approach is best for me. Not only for my own sanity, but also so that AfroHealer can get whatever he needs to get out of his system in a place where he's not going to be interfered with by moderators.
This forum isn't here for my voice - it's here for his and those of other people of colour.
Those who are currently in conflict with AfroHealer can decide for themselves whether they want to continue engaging him or not. I'm not going to intervene on their behalf if they choose to do so. I'm not going to intervene on AfroHealer's behalf either.
I think this approach will either lead to people working things out with each other, or at least eventually disengaging with each other when they get tired of fighting. Either way, once things settle down eventually, this forum will be more useful, I think.
I think my intervention has been very UNuseful up to this point, and it's time for me to stop. I'm not helping anyone and I recognize that. So, I am disengaging.
Those are your words. Not Mine.
Why is it so difficult for some people to be accountable for their own words?
Maybe it hakens to the Good ole days -cuz this place is reminding me of sayings like this
"Those uptiy field Negros, when will they learn to be like the good house Negros , why can't they just say yes Masa like we are used to?"
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:30
#27
I think that, after two threads full of attacks on me by you, I have a right to respond with a single post. And I said in that post that I wasn't going to intervene with moderating posts. Which I haven't. I leave you to it.
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:33
#28
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]"Those uptiy field Negros, when will they learn to be like the good house Negros , why can't they just say yes Masa like we are used to?"[/b]
You think because you claim to be African that you can keep spewing offensive shit like this in the anti-racism forum, or anywhere else?
Even if you were quoting someone, it would be offensive. But, as usual, you are only quoting your own imagination.
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:39
#29
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b] You have already personal identified that you are not able (at the moment) to deal with moderating the anti-racism section of babble.Those were your words not mine .. Heck .. I;m even going to quote you, before someon else here thinks I have lost my damm mind again. [...]
Those are your words. Not Mine.[/b]
Ever been cross-examined on the witness stand by some lawyer? I have - in court, and at the occasional arbitration hearings. The above is the kind of stuff you face all the time.
Anything you say - especially when you're trying to speak from the heart, or be balanced, or admit that you may have done something wrong - is [b]used against you like a baseball bat[/b]. They no longer have to accuse you of anything. They use your very own words, over and over and over and over again.
This is a tried and true harassment technique.
Everyone should think twice before handing a baseball bat to a harasser.
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:42
#30
There was also this heartfelt response from ElizaQ
quote:
As bit of backgrounder for a time, months to be exact I was in situation where issues of race, racism and the relationships between different people, conflict,hate, anger,pain, frustration and the threat of violence due to these conflicts were pretty much a daily occurance. Talks about it were a daily occorance.For me at first it was very difficult to get my head around...still is though it's better. I wasn't just reading about it, or hearing stories about it, or reading posts about it, but I was witnessing it it happen. To stand in a crowd of people facing another crowd of people who look like me and were hurling some of the most vile things I've ever heard...was, well I can only describe it as humbling and incredibly disorienting. It pretty much threw everything that I 'thought' I knew about racism, my personal attempts to deal with it, as well as how I thought I understood 'systemic' racism today in the crapper.
Before the experiences that I had there I may well have been the person described in that post that responded defensively. I didn't get it. I had to figure out from the bottom up.When I read the blog AH's post it brought back the dozens upon dozens of conversations I had with people about racism being thrown against them , what was happening and where we all fit into the mess that was happening.
Michelle this is not an attack of you. But of the system of white supremacy.
I appreciate your honesty in your last response.
I would say as the moderator, a direct and open apology would have also been nice. To ere is human. Not apologizing directly and/or personally to those who you have personally identified as wronged, is not asking too much.
Thanks once again for sharing.
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000638]link to Thread with ElizaQ full response[/url]
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: AfroHealer ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 03:50
#31
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Michelle this is not an attack of you. But of the system of white supremacy.I appreciate your honesty in your last response.
I would say as the moderator, a direct and open apology would have also been nice.[/b]
Michelle, if you even consider "apologizing", we may need a new moderator after all.
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:01
#32
Oh, here we go again. I'm pretty sick of this shit. But hey, I'm a mixed woman, what do I know? [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:09
#33
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]You think because you claim to be African that you can keep spewing offensive shit like this in the anti-racism forum, or anywhere else?
Even if you were quoting someone, it would be offensive. But, as usual, you are only quoting your own imagination.[/b]
He is paraphrasing Malcolm X's famous speech on 'house niggers."
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:11
#34
Thanks Cueball.
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:24
#35
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He is paraphrasing Malcolm X's famous speech on 'house niggers."[/b]
Oh, gee, thanks for the education. I thought he was actually trying to insult black people.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:37
#36
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:Even if you were quoting someone, it would be offensive. But, as usual, you are only quoting your own imagination.
He was not quoting his imagination, here is the link to the speech: [url=http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxgrassroots.htm]AMerican Rhetoric[/url]
It's worthy quoting some of it in full (its always nice to find a moment when you can quote Malcolm X ) :
quote:
To understand this, you have to go back to what [the] young brother here referred to as the house Negro and the field Negro -- back during slavery. There was two kinds of slaves. There was the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes - they lived in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good 'cause they ate his food -- what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but still they lived near the master; and they loved their master more than the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master's house quicker than the master would. The house Negro, if the master said, "We got a good house here," the house Negro would say, "Yeah, we got a good house here." Whenever the master said "we," he said "we." That's how you can tell a house Negro.[SNIP]
The field Negro was beaten from morning to night. He lived in a shack, in a hut; He wore old, castoff clothes. He hated his master. I say he hated his master. He was intelligent. That house Negro loved his master. But that field Negro -- remember, they were in the majority, and they hated the master. When the house caught on fire, he didn't try and put it out; that field Negro prayed for a wind, for a breeze. When the master got sick, the field Negro prayed that he'd die. If someone come [sic] to the field Negro and said, "Let's separate, let's run," he didn't say "Where we going?" He'd say, "Any place is better than here." You've got field Negroes in America today. I'm a field Negro. The masses are the field Negroes. When they see this man's house on fire, you don't hear these little Negroes talking about "our government is in trouble." They say, "The government is in trouble." Imagine a Negro: "Our government"! I even heard one say "our astronauts." They won't even let him near the plant -- and "our astronauts"! "Our Navy" -- that's a Negro that's out of his mind. That's a Negro that's out of his mind.
Nice to read it in context. It adds a little dignity to the thread. But Malcolm X could say the most shocking things and lend them dignity.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:46
#37
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]No one had to teach me about self-love. I've had a pretty good handle on it since I was about thirteen.[/b]
I'm not talkin' the good kind... I meant arrogance.
Or perhaps that's what you meant, ironically?
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:55
#38
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He was not quoting his imagination, here is the link to the speech: AMerican Rhetoric[/b]
Thanks again for the education and thread drift, Cueball.
AH attributed this sentiment to [b]PEOPLE ON BABBLE[/b]. That's what I meant when I said he was quoting his imagination.
Wed, 2008-02-27 04:58
#39
Cueball, I think Unionist's point was that it was offensive to suggest that the responses to AfroHealer here were motivated by the need of White people to put a Black man in his place, rather than the simple frustration of being berated with the same crap over and over.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:00
#40
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
AH attributed this sentiment to [b]PEOPLE ON BABBLE[/b].
In particular, he attributed it to Michelle.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:19
#41
quote:
Heck the African was being told that he was misappropriating the voice of his sisters.
You cannot speak for women AH, regardless of colour. You do not and cannot have and know their lived experience and it is extremely arrogant to assume that you can speak for African women. White men cannot speak for white women, they are not natural allies. Empathy, sympathy..yes..but never ever can you possibly be an authority on their lived experience.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:25
#42
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Thanks again for the education and thread drift, Cueball.
AH attributed this sentiment to [b]PEOPLE ON BABBLE[/b]. That's what I meant when I said he was quoting his imagination.[/b]
Guess your right. Still it was really nice to quote Malcolm X. You should listen to those speeches. Just great!
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:27
#43
I enjoy reading Malcom X. I think I am also the only person I know who has read Marcus Garvy.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:28
#44
Cueball
I have never read Marcus Garvey. I suppose I should.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:32
#45
Oh well we will just have to wait for BCG again.
Wed, 2008-02-27 05:51
#46
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]You cannot speak for women AH, regardless of colour. You do not and cannot have and know their lived experience and it is extremely arrogant to assume that you can speak for African women.[/b]
Who died and made you supreme leader of all things African.
I can speak, because my sisters say i can speak. In our tradition we respect the wishes of the clan grandmothers, and of our sisters.
Should you not be respect the choices of my community, or is it only appropriate when you say it is? Can you say white supremacist tendencies?
I understand it is an alien concept in this culture to have a so-called man speak about his sisters in a way that is respectful of thier wishes.
I would like you to understand that in the traditions that i come from the division and segragation based on genitalia is an alien concept. Something that was imposed by the colonial invaders from the Christian & Islamic Empires.
Since what i have said has not conflicted with anything my sister have said, why the outrage & denigration ?
You might want to ask yourself why it is so difficult for you to understand that everything you believe to be true might be false?
I was under the impression that we were here to learn from each other.
Oh i forgot you must not have gotten the memo . Let me link you to it ..
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000613]Memo to so-called progressives -Africans have minds[/url]
Wed, 2008-02-27 06:00
#47
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]I enjoy reading Malcom X. I think I am also the only person I know who has read Marcus Garvy.[/b]
We don't know each other, but I picked up a couple of Garvey books while travelling in Jamaica a few years back. Excellent stuff.
Wed, 2008-02-27 06:08
#48
Cueball, I agree with you about Malcolm X's speeches, but more so by his life and courage. They have inspired me since I was a teenager. They were and still are a powerful antidote to the racist view that oppressed people had to courteously ask permission to end the oppression, please.
Wed, 2008-02-27 06:13
#49
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Who died and made you supreme leader of all things African.
I can speak, because my sisters say i can speak. In our tradition we respect the wishes of the clan grandmothers, and of our sisters.
Should you not be respect the choices of my community, or is it only appropriate when you say it is? Can you say white supremacist tendencies?
I understand it is an alien concept in this culture to have a so-called man speak about his sisters in a way that is respectful of thier wishes.
I would like you to understand that in the traditions that i come from the division and segragation based on genitalia is an alien concept. Something that was imposed by the colonial invaders from the Christian & Islamic Empires.
Since what i have said has not conflicted with anything my sister have said, why the outrage & denigration ?
You might want to ask yourself why it is so difficult for you to understand that everything you believe to be true might be false?
I was under the impression that we were here to learn from each other.
Oh i forgot you must not have gotten the memo . Let me link you to it ..
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000613]Memo to so-called progressives -Africans have minds[/url][/b]
Every single African woman has given you permission to speak for them? Your inbox must be overflowing.
Did they also give you permission to say that mixed-raced women on babble have white supremicist tendencies?
And why do you assume that every single African woman will share your views? The link you provided (to the Afrocentric schools thread) isn't much of a backup, as there are African-Canadian women who opposed the create of this school. Jordan Manners' mother being one of them.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]
Wed, 2008-02-27 06:14
#50
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Who died and made you supreme leader of all things African.[/b]
Hey Stargazer, I trust you to speak on behalf of African women way ahead of any man who is so full of himself he's about to tip right over.
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000623#0...'s something I learned[/url] about where Aboriginals in America came from:
quote:
Afrocentricty is initately aboriginal, and the peoples of Turtle island, migrated here from the east & west coast of Africa.
Mind you, the source isn't the most authoritative...
Wed, 2008-02-27 06:26
#51
Some people just don't think they are part of the patriarchy. They miss the reality that most cultures, races and religions behaving knowingly or unknowingly in a patriarchal fashion.
I don't care how respectful one is, saying you can speak for another's experience is paternalisitic. Some times the "giving of permission" is just an illusion, a ritual, a custom. It doesn't make it right nor true.