Are humans a naturally violent species?

61 posts / 0 new

Sun, 2008-04-13 06:55

Proaxiom

quote:

Game theory isn't mathematics it is economics and like all economic theory it focuses on mathematical models that ignore the foundational underlying philosophical assumptions.

Game theory is a branch of mathematics.

It is often dubiously applied to economics, political science, foreign policy, etc.

quote:

In your second sentence you include not only assumptions about human behavior and reasoning but assumptions concerning the mechanismism of natural selection, assumptions about the necessity of competition and assumptions about scarcity of resources. All fairly significant assumptions.

It does not contain assumptions about human behaviour. It is trying to argue a point on human behaviour using certain premises, which are arguable but not strictly assumptive because there are very good reasons to think they are true. Some justification was provided in an earlier post.

quote:

As I have consistently stated there is a distinct diffe3rence in stating that humanity is naturally violent and humans have the capacity to behave in a violnet manner, the first statement is deterministic the second is probabalistic.

I think this is wrong, but is a mistake being made by a lot of people in this thread. Natural tendencies are not deterministic. Most people, when they meet an attractive member of the opposite sex, have a natural tendency to want to mate with that person. That inclination is overridden in almost all cases by social and moral rules we have accepted.

If humans contain an inherited instinct to be tribal, as I suggested above, including an instinct to be hostile toward people who are not members of one's tribe, then it doesn't mean violence is inevitable, nor excuse it when it happens. It does, however, have implications in how the problem can be dealt with.

Sun, 2008-04-13 09:05

#53

remind

quote:

Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]Well, we're both claiming significant differences between genders. You're saying men are more violent than women in all forms, I'm saying that the violence is roughly the same but female violence is different.[/b]

Oh yes, I see how one can conflate the making up of mocking songs as being equal in violence to a broken arm, or a punch in the face knocking teeth out and/or breaking a nose. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

How about truthfully defining those acts of the women exampled, as being what they are? Responses to acts of aggression and/or violence against them, and with the decision to commit murder, I would say they grew really fucking tired of the abuse and would not take it anymore.

The right, nor wrong, of this is not in the discussion here, either.

Moreover, the bulk of your quoted article shows that women use; assertive, passive aggressive, and in some cases outright aggression strategies to the purpose of thwarting, or combating, an abusive husband. Which indicates my point, that women are socialized into aggressive responses because of the pervasive patriarchial social order and the levels of abuse contained within it. Indeed one of your studies states:

quote:

Choice of aggressive strategy may become partly habitual, and also reinforced by social norms in the society in question

The article also noted in this same understanding:

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In man, Benton (1992) suggests, aggressive behavior is a reflection of psychosocial history,

And that fact is repeated throughout the article.

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[b] I can see why you would believe as you do, due to the era you grew up in. [/b]

And just what "era" would that be apples? And what does it actually have to do with what are my beliefs, as you see them at least, besides sweet fuck all?

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[b]Due to the era I grew up in, and what I've seen, I'd be very cautious to believe there are gender differences in quantity of aggression. [/b]

Oh I see, I must have faded out of existence in the "era" that you grew up in, and only just resurfaced into existence in the current "era", of NOW. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Now having said all of this, I would suggest that your thought processes are minimizing, at the very least, male physical violence against women and the effect it has upon society in general. And indeed you are perhaps infering that male violence against women is justified and natural.

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[b]There is also rapid social change currently taking place, as can be seen with the Victoria Lindsay beating, and perhaps where these directions are taking us will leave previous theories in the dust.[/b]

I doubt that rapid social change is occuring, it never does. But each generation holds out that belief anyway.

Sun, 2008-04-13 09:09

#54

Papal Bull

Actually, we may not be as inherently blood thirsty as we like to think we are when presented with the actual opportunity to kill.

[url=http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergood/archive/2007summer/grossman.... on the Battlefield[/url]

Sun, 2008-04-13 10:05

#55

Proaxiom

quote:

Originally posted by Papal Bull:
[b]Actually, we may not be as inherently blood thirsty as we like to think we are when presented with the actual opportunity to kill.
[url=http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergood/archive/2007summer/grossman.... on the Battlefield[/url][/b]

When that article says "[i]S.L.A. Marshall's methodology has been criticized...[/i]", that's a significant understatement. Some recent historians have argued that Marshall's claims were completely fabricated.

Sun, 2008-04-13 10:59

#56

Papal Bull

quote:

Originally posted by Proaxiom:
[b]
When that article says "[i]S.L.A. Marshall's methodology has been criticized...[/i]", that's a significant understatement. Some recent historians have argued that Marshall's claims were completely fabricated.[/b]

Either way, it has been a noted phenomenon and would that has engendered enough concern that the United States military has opted to render their training program to become more reflexive.

Plus, one of those interesting aspects brought up by Old Goat is the usage of history in determining humankind's violent tendencies. 12'000 years is certainly a short time in terms of human evolution, but that is about as much recorded history as we have got (significantly less, actually). And history is one of those things that is written by the victor. The victor is always going to seek to glorify their actions and attempt to minimize the other. I think this has probably skewed the readings of history that we have today. Cueball mentioned that violence is more an aberration than the norm. Even in all but the most violent regimes (Soviet, NAZI, basically any of the cuddly authoritarian-totalitarian regimes of the 20th century) bloody violence is rarely a day-to-day occurrence. As such, those episodes that differ from the general flow of a society's history are going to be recorded. Of course, as well all know, this is dependent on so many factors: sociological ones like class, as well as the old destiny definer - geography. So, in our recorded history we probably have a lot more of those 'bad' news stories that are more fun (I'm not sure that is the right word, but it certainly fits) to discuss than talking about how nice and generous Jonas the Shepherd was. Overlooking the norm is very easy to do when other events are different enough to overpower it. You always assume that the norm is going to be recognized, and often times you take for granted that what is the norm when you're writing history isn't going to be the norm when that history really is, well...history.

Sun, 2008-04-13 11:01

#57

N.Beltov

The gentleman who started this thread has said his babble goodbyes to me. I hope he changes his mind and sticks around here anyway ... but if anyone is looking for a reply from Xxxxxxx then they're probably not going to get it.

Happy trails, ... 'till we meet again.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGvCMruyjVg]Roy Rogers and Dale Evans sing Happy Trails[/url]

[ 15 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Sun, 2008-04-13 11:18

#58

500_Apples

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b] I doubt that rapid social change is occuring, it never does. But each generation holds out that belief anyway.[/b]

I think that the fact an individual from a racial minority and lower income background like myself managed to study academically rather than die of tuberculosis, die in war, or work the farms for a pittance is a sign of social change. We have women business leaders, international travel, and the internet... these are significant changes.

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b] Oh I see, I must have faded out of existence in the "era" that you grew up in, and only just resurfaced into existence in the current "era", of NOW.
Now having said all of this, I would suggest that your thought processes are minimizing, at the very least, male physical violence against women and the effect it has upon society in general. And indeed you are perhaps infering that male violence against women is justified and natural. [/b]

That is incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b] And just what "era" would that be apples? And what does it actually have to do with what are my beliefs, as you see them at least, besides sweet fuck all?[/b]

You grew up in the era when male researchers looking for male-centric aggression patterns were claiming that female violence is trivial and not worth studying, you even referred to such studies a few posts above. Psychology is a young field and has made many mistakes, similar to a lot of nonsense that was in the literature of nineteenth century physics. Psychology has had a good century. Among other things, it's getting a better understanding of violence rather than some primitive conception of violence being a physical issue.

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b]Oh yes, I see how one can conflate the making up of mocking songs as being equal in violence to a broken arm, or a punch in the face knocking teeth out and/or breaking a nose. [/b]

I would much rather have a broken nose than to have a mocking song being sung by everybody on the other island. I've been beaten up and I've had bad songs about me. Getting beaten up is better, because it ends when it's over, rather than being adopted universally by all people in the community for a period of years.

*****

My impression is that you were not the least popular person in your high school. Because if you were, you would have an easier time understanding how harmful and devastating passive aggression and mocking songs are. You may not have noticed but there is a very high suicide and attempted suicide rate among teens.

*****

I stick with my two points for now:

1) Physical violence is not the only form of violence.
2) There are no significant differences in quantity of aggression between genders, only in quality.

[ 13 April 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

Sun, 2008-04-13 13:13

#59

remind

quote:

Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b] think that the fact an individual from a racial minority and lower income background like myself managed to study academically rather than die of tuberculosis, die in war, or work the farms for a pittance is a sign of social change. [/b]

yes, there has been social chage in those referenced areas, it took quite awhile to achieve, what we have though and there is still a long way to go even. However, I do not apply the struggle in your case, to others in the majority who are still struggling and who are still having to take part in war and working farms for a pittance.

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[b]We have women business leaders, international travel, and the internet... these are significant changes.[/b]

wow just wow, equating women's equality fight which took centuries, to the achievements of international travel and the internet!!!

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[b]I would much rather have a broken nose than to have a mocking song being sung by everybody on the other island. [/b]

really, perhaps you would feel differently after daily abuses of such sort that goes on for years, or should you have had to struggle as a woman for decades under patriarchial aggression and violence?

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[b]My impression is that you were not the least popular person in your high school. [/b]

Well, as you know nothing much about me, I would have reserved any stereotyped impressions about me.

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[b]Because if you were, you would have an easier time understanding how harmful and devastating passive aggression and mocking songs are. [/b]

That again is an unfounded assumption on your part. Perhaps because you have no idea how devastating patriarchy is to both genders.

quote:

[b]You may not have noticed but there is a very high suicide and attempted suicide rate among teens.[/b]

You know what apples, your smug sense of knowing based upon erroneous and unjustified assumptions, is rather repugnant. You have no idea how many people I have known who have committed suicide, or even attempted, starting from back when I was a teenager. You also apparently have no idea what I do for a living. And I believe that is because you have absolutely no interest in actually KNOWING other people, as you feel safer in your internally constructed assumptions about them. That way you never have to challenge your own thinking, or thoughts, or assumptions.

quote:

[b]I stick with my two points for now:
1) Physical violence is not the only form of violence.
2) There are no significant differences in quantity of aggression between genders, only in quality.[/b]

Addressing point 1:

No one, not even myself, stated physical violence is the only form of violence, indeed we women know much differently, because it takes a great deal of mental and emotional violence before a woman will be broken enough to submit to physical violence on an ongoing basis.

Addressing point 2:

BS, you are not even listening to, or understanding, what your article expressed, nor are you accepting the comprehensive studies and data done in the last 14 years from your article's date. Say nothing of your rejection of the stats that show women, and indeed children, die more frequently at the hands of men.

I think that kids who have had experienced their mother murdered by their father would have rather had nasty songs sung about her.

Anyhow I am done with this conversation with you, I hold to my statement;

quote:

your thought processes are minimizing, at the very least, male physical violence against women and the effect it has upon society in general. And indeed you are perhaps infering that male violence against women is justified and natural.

And would now add to that you feel so because "women are violent too just as much as men are".

Aggression is not always violence BTW. And I see deep seated misogyny in your words, and thought processes and I also understand your passive aggressive actions in putting forth this article.