Activists and privilege
Fri, 2008-04-25 14:36
#1
Activists and privilege
Fri, 2008-04-25 14:36
#2
Good question and reply. I agree 100%. I'm sick of middle class lefties who go out of their way to prove their "proletarian" credentials. I prefer people to just be honest. The guilt trip is ridiculous and unproductive, diverting efforts from real activism.
I've always found those going on about "trust fund babies" and "rich kids" on the Left tend to be hiding something themselves.
Fri, 2008-04-25 19:07
#3
Maysie
Moving to the Ms. Communicate forum.
Sat, 2008-04-26 10:11
#4
Sorry -- what /where was the comment in question?
Sat, 2008-04-26 12:14
#5
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/now_what.shtml?sh_itm=b950911af8611b4bb3f2d79c629e6... Ms Communicate column in question.[/url]
Sharon, oh Sharon, why have you forsaken us?
Sat, 2008-04-26 14:37
#6
writer
Sharon doesn't work here anymore.
Sat, 2008-04-26 14:43
#7
Mwwwhahaha!
Sat, 2008-04-26 14:46
#8
I know. But when she did, she would have been quick to add the link to a rabble article.
Sat, 2008-04-26 14:54
#9
writer
We must look forward, Stephen Gordon. We can all try to be a bit more like Sharon, and do our Sharony part here on babble.
That way, Sharon will have more time to teach Michelle and I about canning.
CMOT: exactly!
Sat, 2008-04-26 16:50
#10
What kind of canning would that be?
Sat, 2008-04-26 17:09
#11
writer
Excellent question! Recommendations?
WWSD?
(What Would Sharon Do?)
Sat, 2008-04-26 17:22
#12
i am seriously lost.
Literal.
Sat, 2008-04-26 18:58
#13
writer
Sorry. Sometimes my spare prose does that.
I am no canning expert. Which is why Sharon's wisdom is required. So I have no clear answer to the question about what we'll can.
I would guess we'd start with the stuff newbie canners start with.
Also, Michelle and I haven't hashed out our dream list yet.
So I was asking if you had any suggestions.
Then I ambled over into an odd little joke riffing off of WWJD (What Would Jesus Do?), trying to draw on the spirit of Sharon's grand canning wisdom.
It didn't work. Though red peppers keep coming to mind.
Sun, 2008-04-27 01:09
#14
I was wondering whether we were talking about canning, as in preserving food- or some other kind of canning altogether.
Heaven knows the exotic esoterica completely unknown to me that people might kibbitz around!
But the fact it might be food piqued my interest because I didn't know anyone under 70 still canned.
I used to can everything under the sun. Fish included- especially hot smoked. [Pressure canner.] But in this family it is now just pasta sauce, year's supply from the garden, and one or 2 jams, some pickles.
But now that I think of it, the Fall canning jar section of the stores has more jars than would be accounted for by elderly ladies doing the relishes. And there are plenty of large jars too [though those could be pickles].
Relish is one of the few Maritime tastes I haven't picked up.
If you really like pickles- pickled anything- within a couple years you can be making your dream pickle. ...or you can, if you can agree on what the dream pickle is, or guiltlessly make pickles no one else will eat.
Sun, 2008-04-27 02:51
#15
How many cans can a canner can if a canner can can cans? A canner can can as many cans as a canner can when a canner can can cans.
I'm looking forward to the canning, writer. And yes, red peppers sound amazing - roasted red peppers? Mmmm!
Anyhoo. I was a "starving student" myself (although I wasn't really "starving") although, as a parent of a young child, wasn't really much of an activist, I don't think, beyond posting on babble. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] Although babble is what motivated me to start getting more active, and I did start writing more to politicians, thinking a lot more about the issues that were important to me, etc. And I started to do the things I could with a little one in tow.
When I moved to Toronto in 2003, I was pretty broke! So I guess I had the cred, not that I bothered using it. But when I had no money at all, I didn't look down my nose at activists who did have money or decent jobs. If anything, I felt glad that they were spending their time doing what I didn't have as much time to do because I was busy looking for work and being worried sick about where rent money was going to come from.
It's important for those of us who are comfortable (or at least not starving) to not be complacent about others who are not. I mean, the goal is for everyone to be comfortable, right? So it doesn't do much good for those who make it to "comfortable" to feel like they now can't be activists because they don't have the "cred".
I'm particularly lucky because I'm basically PAID to organize activist/progressive events as part of my day job, and I moonlight for a bit of cash on the side with rabble. And as a union member, I'm paid not too badly, although I'm still broke lately because that paycheque is mostly going to my lawyer's kid's college fund. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] (Seriously, it's amazing how broke and in the red I am right now while making the highest income I've ever made in my life, not that I'm bringing home a mint, but in normal circumstances it would be enough to live on decently.)
So, if I were a student with well-to-do parents, I wouldn't feel intimidated out of being active because of "cred" issues. The best thing you can do with your privilege is to spend the extra time you have being active.
One caution though - it's really easy for people who are comfortable to "take over" and appropriate issues and to become the lead spokesperson when others might be more qualified since they're speaking from that perspective. So be careful to use your privilege in ways that will empower people without privilege to speak their truths rather than speaking for them.
Sun, 2008-04-27 08:50
#16
N.Beltov
As historian E.P.Thompson so brilliantly wrote, [i]class is a thing that happens.[/i] And, in a class society, it "happens" to everyone. What sort of class consciousness develops, and to what degree, is a related, but different, matter.
I agree with Ms. Communicate; as long as you're not lying about your experience, and you're active and involved and partisan for an identifiable social group, or class, in society, then it's all good. In fact, your example of social partisanship can inspire others from the same background as you, by underlining the relative importance of your ethical decisions and choices and demonstrating how it can be done.
Sun, 2008-04-27 09:33
#17
I saw my name on TAT last night and I read this thread. I found it very amusing but then I had to go to bed. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
I began to think about a red pepper jelly that I once made though. I loved it. I only made it once but I propose that we put it on a list.
Ken, I think the word "canning" is used quite broadly. I don't put anything in cans but -- in bottles -- I make jams and jellies and pickles and chutneys and, yes, relishes. The rhubarb is almost ready and I use a recipe that makes a stupendous rhubarb chutney. Let me know when you're ready for a workshop.
And by the way, listen to writer. From time to time, when you think it would help, ask yourself: WWSD? [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Now, back to Ms Communicate.
Sun, 2008-04-27 10:03
#18
Boom Boom
Almost everyone here (but me) bottles crab, bakeapples, raspberries, home made pickles, beets, and probably other stuff as well. I just never got into bottling or canning, myself.
Sun, 2008-04-27 10:09
#19
Boom Boom, perhaps you will join our workshop when we start to do some babble-preserving. It's very satisfying when you see your shelves lined with lovely bottles of freshly preserved fruits and veg.
Sun, 2008-04-27 10:13
#20
quote:
So, if I were a student with well-to-do parents, I wouldn't feel intimidated out of being active because of "cred" issues. The best thing you can do with your privilege is to spend the extra time you have being active.One caution though - it's really easy for people who are comfortable to "take over" and appropriate issues and to become the lead spokesperson when others might be more qualified since they're speaking from that perspective. So be careful to use your privilege in ways that will empower people without privilege to speak their truths rather than speaking for them.
These are excellent points. The guilt trip thing isn't helpful and probably isn't fooling anyone anyway. If you have privilege, there are many more productive ways to use it. So why not do that?
I agree that privileged people and "intellectuals" on the Left do have a tendency to often dominate things. Not because they're bad people, but rather because they feel their educations, etc. makes them more qualified to speak on behalf of everyone else.
Sun, 2008-04-27 13:07
#21
If your background is privilege, you're probably going to feel less conflicted about exerting influence. You don't perceive as much of a divide between yourself and the people you need to reach; you expect to be taken seriously. Part of it too is just being around opinion leaders, people with big jobs, and seeing real, normal people do things that change the world a little. At a certain point you start to think, I could do that too.
That kind of egoism can be very helpful to a group. So I agree, there is a role to be played in poverty activism by people with class privilege. But I think you have to acknowledge the source of that self-confidence, make it transparent to the people you're working with, or you could end up just using them as your own little cult of personality. I have seen that happen.
Sun, 2008-04-27 13:21
#22
I think this sort of thing goes a hell of a long way towards explaining why the NDP does so badly in low-income, low-status areas outside urban centres. All they see is a bunch of well-off urban hipsters saying "Vote for us, you stupid redneck! Or else we will despise you even more!"
Sun, 2008-04-27 13:43
#23
Boom Boom
quote:
Originally posted by Sharon:
[b]Boom Boom, perhaps you will join our workshop when we start to do some babble-preserving. It's very satisfying when you see your shelves lined with lovely bottles of freshly preserved fruits and veg.[/b]
An 'online' workshop? Certainly! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-04-27 13:46
#24
Boom Boom
A friend of mine in Thunder Bay preserved carrots by pickling them - I've never seen that before. And, a friend here preserves cabbage leaves with salt - just soak them in water when you want them, rinse, and use. Same principle as salting cod, although preserving cabbage with salt is something I've never seen before moving here.
Mon, 2008-04-28 05:23
#25
I can't can. I know no one who can can. Except Sharon now of course.
I've also never really thought of myself as an activist. Part of it is that I dislike crowds and meetings and stuff. I'm not even sure what an activist is. I'm also frankly a trifle lazy.
My lifestyle however is pretty middle class, and I come from white and class privlige. Mrs. oldgoat and I are pretty comfortably paid for what we do. It would never occur to me to try to hide any of that. So, activist? I labour daily at the rockface of human misery and need, and I do a lot of advocacy, mostly individual and some systemic. I try to argue points of social justice when I find myself among the unenlightened (like when my brother visits) and I try to walk that talk.
So I don't feel any particular conflict myself, and after 56 years and three analytically oriented therapists, I just don't do the guilt thing.
Mon, 2008-04-28 07:52
#26
Will either of the moderators. stop assisting in derailing the thread!! I'm thanking you in advance for abiding by rabble policies and procedures..
Now to get back to the topic at hand.
We all need to be real. Honesty is the best policy. besides you will feel less guilty, if you are not going around lying by omission.
We all have the gifts that we inherit, and if the purpose is to help create a better world, then by all means bring all of you to the table.
I frankly have not been able to wrap my head around the concept of feeling guilty cuz u got food on the table & a roof over your head that does not leak.
I say count your many blessings, and share what you can.
We are a team. one blood, one love, one family.
There is a famous saying "to whom much is given, much is expected"
From your brother from another mother.
Mon, 2008-04-28 09:42
#27
quote:
Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Will either of the moderators. stop assisting in derailing the thread!! I'm thanking you in advance for abiding by rabble policies and procedures..[/b]
In fact, both moderators DID attempt to bring the thread back on topic in our posts, which were on topic while engaging in some pleasantries at the same time. We didn't feel it was necessary to be confrontational and nag everyone in order to get the point across, and the thread has been mostly on topic except for a couple of posts where people were socializing a bit. That has always been allowed on babble by the moderators, and we will continue to allow it.
Mon, 2008-04-28 09:43
#28
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
[b]I think [b]this sort of thing[/b] goes a hell of a long way towards explaining why the NDP does so badly in low-income, low-status areas outside urban centres. [/b]
What sort of thing? I mean, I agree with you that the NDP needs to get rid of their white urban yuppy activist image if they want to make inroads into low-income communities. But on the other hand, in a lot of rural areas, it's often the NDP and the Conservatives vying for seats, particularly out on the prairies, so the NDP must be shedding that image to some degree, at least out there if not here in the east...
[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Mon, 2008-04-28 10:34
#29
quote:
at least out there if not here in the east...
Or here in the East [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] -- in Nova Scotia, where the NDP is poised to form the next government (with rural seats added in the last election) except that Premier Rodney is a little afraid to call an election.
As for the question around privilege and activism: I've never understood why you should have to be poor to understand that poverty is an injustice and that it's important to work, on many levels, to see that policies are put in place -- affordable housing, accessible jobs and child care, decent wages (minimum and otherwise), good public transit etc. -- to help change those conditions.
And surely no one has been more excoriated in this country than Alexa McDonough, who has been vilified for years for coming from a wealthy background while believing to her core in the politics she has always worked for.
Mon, 2008-04-28 10:43
#30
NS is certainly the Maritime anomaly when it comes to NDP support. NS has the stronger working class history of the three, I think. It certainly explains the historic Cape Breton support. NB is certainly a two party system with the titles of the parties often having little to do with their politics. ie. sometimes the Libs are to the right of the PCs.
Mon, 2008-04-28 17:55
#31
quote:
I think this sort of thing goes a hell of a long way towards explaining why the NDP does so badly in low-income, low-status areas outside urban centres.
Hmmm. NS as already pointed out generally: 30% stable vote share in mainland [i]outside[/i] Metro.. federally as well as provincialy.
Similar for Vancouver Island and Interior of BC, similar for Northern Ontario....
But maybe Gordon would like to make a more general statement from his toss-off comment. The only thing i can tell is that there is obviously a dissaproval of what he is hearing. An explanation of what might help.
[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]
Mon, 2008-04-28 18:06
#32
It's hard to think of "yuppie elitist" ridings held by the NDP - Ottawa, Outremont, Trinity-Spadina, maybe Toronto-Danforth and Parkdale-High Park...and that's about it.
Tue, 2008-04-29 06:45
#33
I can't speak for other cities, but the NDP does extremely poorly outside of urban Toronto - ie. the old city of Toronto. They are nowhere to be found in Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York, Mississauga, Vaughn, Ajax, Whitby, etc. I think Stephen's right that it's that elitist intellectualism that turns people away, and it doesn't jive with working class people in those areas.
Tue, 2008-04-29 06:54
#34
Is it the working class who doesn't vote for the NDP or the suburbanite "I'm all right, Jack" crowd?
Anybody got any real evidence?
Tue, 2008-04-29 06:58
#35
quote:
suburbanite "I'm all right, Jack" crowd?
Aren't they and working people one and the same? Ok, maybe not in Vaughan...
Tue, 2008-04-29 07:12
#36
Not quite, they don't belong to unions as much, for example.
Tue, 2008-04-29 09:00
#37
My great granparents worked for American can, so they could and did can all day. My granny made the most fantastic pickeld beats using mason (glass) jars !!! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] I'm going to give it a try one day.
It's important to alawys be honest about one's location because it affects one's point of view and comprehension of an issue. I am a white, university educated, middle class, heterosexual woman. When I'm talking about anti-racism, or poverty, or diverse bodies in the media, because of the power "flows" between poeple reinforces the structure of our society I think one has to make certain to support but to let the "affected" (can't think of a better word) people voice things themselves. I can be informed about the issues, but can only so much put myself in others shoes, and as others have said you have to make certain to not take over. Lying and being found out will certainly not increase your "street cred".
[ 29 April 2008: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]
Tue, 2008-04-29 09:11
#38
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]But on the other hand, in a lot of rural areas, it's often the NDP and the Conservatives vying for seats, particularly out on the prairies, so the NDP must be shedding that image to some degree, at least out there if not here in the east...
[/b]
The NDP has little chance of winning in rural Saskatchewan. It is true they often come second - though well behind the Conservatives - but that's a tribute to the weakness of the Liberal party. It has become an urban phenomenon and typical supporters do tend to be affluent, well-educated types who live precisely as one would expect. This is an enormous shift. The NDP has not been "shedding that image" in Saskatchewan but acquiring it.
My own theory is that Saskatchewan, which used to have a strong, fairly radical political culture, has been swamped by the general, corporate-driven culture of North America. The grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people who built co-operatives and went to meetings in curling rinks and church basements where local speakers denounced capitalism are watching CNN and Fox. It's sad.
[ 29 April 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Tue, 2008-04-29 09:36
#39
Pogo
How are we defining rural. Does it only apply to farm country. Where does the NDP stronghold of Vancouver Island fit in?
Tue, 2008-04-29 11:13
#40
Well the NDP has a base in York South-Weston now (provincially anyway) and did better than expected in York West and Scarborough-Guildwood in the last provincial election.
One can't expect the NDP to do well in affluent suburbs like Willowdale, Thornhill, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Oakville, etc.