Who has experienced racism?
Wed, 2008-05-07 09:41
#1
Who has experienced racism?
Wed, 2008-05-07 09:41
#2
After going through the posts in "theoretically speaking" and hearing so many "white folks" talk about their ancestors experiencing racism and how they are offended when it is said they haven't suffered racism. Well I have to ask, OK fess up, which of you white folk have experienced racism in your life time? I'm curious.
I'm going ot list some of my "non-white moments"
The Klan blew up the gate of my summer camp (8 years old) and poisoned the pond that campers swam in forcing a move from Georgia to Tennesee. The Tennessee camp was later burned to the ground as a communist organization.
A Tennesee State trooper forced my as an 8 year old to sit at the back of an interstate bus, apart from my mother who was white.
My 3rd grade teacher wrote on my report card that I was pretty smart, considering my racial background.
When we moved in to a white neighborhood in Columbus Ohio rocks were thrown through our front window and our immediate neighbors posted no tresspassing signs, facing our way across the lot line to make sure no little black children crossed onto their lawn.
After moving to Toronto in the 60's , while riding in my friends car a police car pulled up beside us one day rolled down his window and advised my friend that "You shouldn't be letting that nigger ride in your car."
ON becoming a department head in the high school in the 90's where i taught, I was informed by a white guy that I only got the job because I was mixed black and native and they were killing two birds with one stone in the affirmative action department. Actually I probably got the job because the principal had taken a couple of courses from my father, and because despite being totally different ideologically, we got along quite well. (Funny how that can happen.) A darky actually can get a job because he or she is qualified, not just because "they had to hire you". What a concept.
I could actually go on longer, but those are the high points, or low points depending on how you look at it.
So I really have to ask.. when you say racism is part of the european experience, do you actually have personal reference material, or is this all theoretical?
I've actually met white folk that have experienced discrimination in situations where power roles were reversed. I'm just wondering how much of this "the scots were persecuted by the english" is intellectual posturing or if in fact, y'all have some tales to tell.
Wed, 2008-05-07 09:53
#3
M. Spector
You are actually inviting "white folks" to come to the anti-racism forum and tell you about how they have suffered from racism?
This is not going to end well.
Wed, 2008-05-07 10:12
#4
I've experienced anti-semitism and I'm not Jewish.
Wed, 2008-05-07 10:48
#5
Timebandit
I've never experienced racism, but my grandfather was a British Home Child, so he suffered severe discrimination because of his class. The Canadian Department of Agriculture paid approximately $2 to the British charity he was a ward of so they would ship him to Canada against his will place him on a farm in Canada as an indentured servant, where he was physically and psychologically abused.
To this day, the charity in question restricts access to documents regarding our family's history archived in their files. People of our class don't deserve to know, it seems.
None of this approaches a personal experience of racism, however, and I will be the first to admit that.
Wed, 2008-05-07 11:19
#6
Is this the Barnardo children, Timebandit?
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:07
#7
Interesting Timebandit, I bought a farm that had been home to a British Home Boy. My understanding is that he was brought to Canada, not as an adopted child but as indentured labour. I'm not sure if he ended up owning the farm, but the local auctioneer /historian, who sold me the farm told me that just before he sold it to us ( this would have been 71-73) that the old man had asked him to bring him out from the old folks residence, he had come out for the afternoon, poked around for a bit, then went back to the old age home and then died the next day. I always meant to find out more about him, but never did. My old place was built in 1867, and I have no idea how long he lived there, when he came, or what his circumstances were, but I've always meant to find out more about "Home Boys". Thanks for reminding me.
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:15
#8
Caissa, antisemitism because your wife is Jewish, or because you were mistaken for Jewish?
That Home Child story is quite something. Indeed, there were parallels between that kind of class relations and racism.
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:22
#9
My grandfather and his brother were Barnardo Boys, we are still trying to figute out where the rest of his sibilings went as they were the only 2 sent over and not to the same farm.
My grandfather was luckier than most, he was sent to live with 2 sisters who never married and ran the farm into their 100's - I met them as a child, they were special. But none of that made up for just shipping these kids away from their family.
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:22
#10
Timebandit
Caissa, they are often referred to as "Barnardo Children", but Barnardo's was only one of many charities that were part of the Child Migration Scheme. Barnardo's, incidentally, was the organization that separated my grandfather from his family.
retiredguy, if you are interested in where to find more info, pm me.
I developed a documentary on the subject, and the fact that descendents are not allowed open access to archives, especially to information regarding siblings that would allow us to trace our extended families... Unfortunately, we didn't make it into production, but I know more than most people about the subject. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:33
#11
Timebandit
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
[b]My grandfather and his brother were Barnardo Boys, we are still trying to figute out where the rest of his sibilings went as they were the only 2 sent over and not to the same farm.My grandfather was luckier than most, he was sent to live with 2 sisters who never married and ran the farm into their 100's - I met them as a child, they were special. But none of that made up for just shipping these kids away from their family.[/b]
Cross-posted with you, Scout...
Your grandfather was lucky to maintain contact with his brother. I know a story of two sisters who were placed on farms less than 30 km from each other -- Barnardo's refused to tell where the other was, and they never saw each other again, although both lived the rest of their lives in the same region of Canada.
Barnardo's won't give you any information on siblings, and now they'll charge you about $200 for your ancestor's file.
Wed, 2008-05-07 12:43
#12
I wonder how they found each other? He never spoke of that time, and I know he and his brother didn't get on well as they aged, it was their wives that kept the families connected.
We are still looking for the other 4 or 5 kids left in England.
Wed, 2008-05-07 13:23
#13
Timebandit
The fact that your grandfather landed in a good situation may have helped. Most placements were not, and keeping the kids isolated made them easier to abuse without consequence.
My grandfather was 11 when Barnardo's took him in, along with his brother, who was only a year old. I believe he maintained some contact after he left his placement by sending money to look after Bill. They were reunited after 64 years apart, when Bill came to Canada.
Wed, 2008-05-07 13:52
#14
I literary had to hold my jaw, really this is shameful. This is an “anti-racism” forum, again “anti-racism” not anything else?
There are other forums that you can talk about other forms of oppression why take over the space of people of colour and First Nation?
Can you see the distribution of power and privilege here and how it plays in distribution of sapce and who is allowed to have their own space and whose space is shamelessly invaded?
[ 07 May 2008: Message edited by: Seddig ]
Wed, 2008-05-07 14:16
#15
Catchfire
I have been taunted with anti-Gay remarks because I am tall, slender and like to wear pink. I am heterosexual.
Does this mean I have been subject to homophobia? Absolutely not.
On the contrary, what experiences like this teach me is that I am not, and never will be in danger of homophobia. It shows me what homophobia is, in a fleeting moment, and that experience reaffirms that every other moment of my life, I am free of such hatred. It shows me the fence and in great big blinding strokes which side I am on.
Consider the laughable editorializing after 9/11 which insisted that America had finished its "vacation from history" that it had "entered the real world." What a joke. All it did was affirm America's fantasy that the world hated it for its freedoms, that its paranoia was justified, that it, too, knew what suffering was.
Newsflash: America, along with white, middle-class heterosexuals does not have the faintest inkling of what suffering is.
This thread is ill-advised and comical to Whites and downright insulting to POC. Perhaps this was not your intention, retiredguy, perhaps you did not mean to frame it as a white, reverse-racism love-in, but that's sure how it sounds.
Wed, 2008-05-07 14:32
#16
Retiredguy, I decided to pm you after reading Seddig and Catchfire's comments.
Wed, 2008-05-07 17:47
#17
This is such a strange thread.
How small is the fraction of people who have not experienced racism?
Here's some random experiences here:
- Being called mock, afro, et cetera in elementary and high school.
- in cegep, university, and elsewhere, I was never part of the dominant social circle, which was always asian and caucasian. I somehow usually ended up with brown people.
- I'm always the first person security guards go for at synagogues or israel day celebrations.
- Randomly being asked if I was saddam hussein's cousin, if I was from Iran or Iraq, being labelled the arab, and told I should stay away from explosives handling.
- Having a lot of extra grooming work to do (and thus more expenses) because beauty standards are caucasian.
- People so damn frequently asking me what I think of all the problems in israel, and if I don't agree with them it must be because I'm brainwashed.
- Having to fill in millions of forms that ask me if I'm 1) Non-Hispanic White 2) African-American 3) Hispanic 4) Asian 5) Aboriginal. (I'm currently living in the USA).
And the list goes on.
Wed, 2008-05-07 22:49
#18
The difference is that any small doses of prejudice that white guys may get in return are only occasional, easily avoided most days, have little power to effect our lives, personal security, or our immediate family most probably. And if you grow up as someone who is seen as 'different' than others and often excluded, for reasons you can do nothing about, being reminded of it every day of your life just might affect you more personally than those who are born into the national club. There is also little chance that your employer will deny you a deserved promotion simply because you look a little different. Because you probably don't.
ETA: I wasn't referring directly to Apples', but more general drift.
[ 08 May 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]
Wed, 2008-05-07 22:53
#19
Cueball
So, you think people who look like Arabs aren't descriminated against in this country because they are white(ish)?
Wed, 2008-05-07 22:53
#20
quote:
Originally posted by retiredguy:
[b]After going through the posts in "theoretically speaking" and hearing so many "white folks" talk about their ancestors experiencing racism and how they are offended when it is said they haven't suffered racism. [/b]
Um, the last part isn't quite accurate, least from what I saw, but after the last go around I do think this truly is inappropriate. It's like opening another thread on how poor people oppress the rich. This is supposed to be a progressive site, however much that word has been coopted. If the moderators sees fit to close this thread I'd support that decision.
Wed, 2008-05-07 22:57
#21
Cueball
My impression was that it was an attempt to demonstrate something other than that.
Wed, 2008-05-07 23:00
#22
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]So, you think people who look like Arabs aren't descriminated against in this country because they are white(ish)?[/b]
No, Arabs and others are often discriminated against in this country because they Aren't seen as white Enough, even if they happen to be more "Caucasian" than I am. (and because of cynical political manipulation) I thought I was fairly clear on this in the other thread.
Wed, 2008-05-07 23:02
#23
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]My impression was that it was an attempt to demonstrate something other than that.[/b]
If you're just looking to disagree try someone else.
Wed, 2008-05-07 23:30
#24
Cueball
Well I do disagree I don't think the OP was attempt to open "another thread on how poor people oppress the rich."
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]No, Arabs and others are often discriminated against in this country because they Aren't seen as white Enough, even if they happen to be more "Caucasian" than I am. (and because of cynical political manipulation) I thought I was fairly clear on this in the other thread.[/b]
Well it seemed to me that 500 Apples was expressing some of the kinds soft racism that Arabs experience, not that this in anyway equates with the OP, but 500 Apples experience is probably lessened since he/she culturally integrated in other ways.
So, since 500 Apples appears to be Arab, there is every chance that his/her "employer will deny" him/her "a deserved promotion simply because you look a little different."
It also interests me that mistaking semitic Jews for Arabs says a lot about how things have developed in the last while, since they would before have been identified a Jews, because of their semitic look, something which used to commonly happen to Arabs, but now that Arabs have become public enemy No. 1, the "racialiazation" has changed in form. This racist behaviour even happens at pro-Israeli events.
But then... 500 Apples self-identifies as white...
[ 07 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Wed, 2008-05-07 23:57
#25
You could be right, if you really think it's a potentially worthwhile why don't you just ask him what he was thinking here?
Sat, 2008-05-10 13:56
#26
Everyone has experienced racism in one degree or another, that's a good thing actually that way its easier for all of us to relate. We need to truly respect each others experiences.
What is racism? i think its starts with judgmental qualities. Every ones own race judges each other lets say for example i have green eyes and my village or town of people have brown eyes, i get judged.
Plus our way of thinking should keep evolving for instance i believe the word "black" to describe a race is the wrong word. That word comes from the word negro an English translation of the Portuguese word "nigro" used by the Portuguese slave traders it means "black stain".
I say out with that word and also out with the word "white" to describe a race. Like i come from Blackland or i come from Whiteland, and i speak Blackanese, Blackish, Blackian or i speak Whiteish, Whiteian, Whiteanese. Those terms are derogatory.
So we have Anglosaxons, Latins, Asians, Aboriginal aka Anishnabi and many more. What about the African people ...what is the better word there has to be one.
Africa after all has many races within its "black" population IE different physical attributes to steam roll everyone into one group is wrong.
Taking about our experiences is a good start.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2008-05-10 14:53
#27
PS we are all from the same race...the human race
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:01
#28
Cueball
Right. But then there is racism so what about that?
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:22
#29
cueball r u replying to my post?
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:23
#30
Cueball
Yes.
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:24
#31
what do you want to know?
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:32
#32
Cueball
I don't think its enough to just make a simple assertion about our common humanity. I think people on this board are in general agreement on this point. There are, quantifiable differences between the kinds of racism that people experience, and I think this thread is more directed at identifying some of those differences.
I, for example, can not in my life think of an incident even close to those discussed in the opening post. I have never been the victim of racially instigated violence for example, though I have been involved in violence where racism was evoked. But no one ever came after me specifically because I was white, if you see what I am saying.
Most of the racist experiences I have had, are actually to do with my own latent racism, and the milder forms of social stygmatization attached to race and ethnicity, not as in the OP, organized racial violence, with racism as its prime motivator.
Sat, 2008-05-10 15:52
#33
I know people who are Anglosaxons you know "white" and they have experienced racism i guess you don't live in a big city.
I also read an article that describe how people say they are not racist but they do things that come across as racist. A group of people took those types of people and did more investigating via a lie detector to see if they were really lying.
The result were true they weren't racist they just had to unlearn some behavioural traits that they may have learned through peers that were racists or acted like they were.
My personal experience was being told i wasn't "white" by a white supremists guy he and i had a mutual friend anyway i felt his hatred. I asked him then what am i? he said i don't know but your not "white". I then had a Jamaican lady who refused to call me by my right name she would call me "Cammy" soposedly it was a derogatory and would always say "you people" when referring to me.
I had a Anishnabi aka Aboriginal guy tell me he hated me because i was European decent and threatened to kill me (i almost shit my pants).
Then there is what you have experience i understand that too.
But i'm a pretty positive person and believe one day we will all understand and respect each others differences.
Sat, 2008-05-10 16:04
#34
laine lowe
There's a difference between experiencing a racist attack and being attacked by angry victim of racism. Reverse racism is just a term coined by those threatened by angry people demanding justice.
Sat, 2008-05-10 16:17
#35
laine lowe, i understand there are people out there that use anything to their benefit. You give no room to the understanding that there IS racism with people of "black,brown,yellow,white" My Guinea friend's mother is a full blown racist against "whites", she hates them. Even if she doesnt know them, i have heard her say the meanest things enough to make me want to slap her thats how bad it was. i tried to tell her 2 wrongs don't make a right she looked at me and almost kicked me out of the car, i was so close to telling her off but its my friend mom.
Sat, 2008-05-10 17:05
#36
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by what i ment to say:
[b]i have heard her say the meanest things enough to make me want to slap her thats how bad it was. i tried to tell her 2 wrongs don't make a right she looked at me and almost kicked me out of the car, i was so close to telling her off but its my friend mom.[/b]
Anyone who would talk about assaulting people of colour for their supposed 'racism' doesn't belong in the anti-racist forum, period. Message sent to moderators.
Sat, 2008-05-10 17:34
#37
I have never hit a person in my life, i was trying to show that racism brings out the worst in people...HELLO Yes I was so mad i felt like slapping her, after she saw a "white" woman just walking along the sidewalk doing nothing wrong. As we past her in the car she said very loudly i want to slash her throat, pull her eyes out. Keep in mind this is a friends mother who i grew up with and have known for some time now. It makes me sick to my stomach how racist she is FYI she hates "black" people too.
I forgive her but that doesnt mean i feel A-ok when she talks like that.
Do you embrace racism when your standing right next to it??
Sat, 2008-05-10 17:34
#38
Yeah, what I meant to say, you will stay out of this particular section of babble from now on, or your account will be locked.
Sat, 2008-05-10 17:44
#39
Michelle, what are you talking about??
Seems like their is a need for a witch hunt, you need to check my other posts before you start judging me, i truly am not a racist maybe you are?
Sat, 2008-05-10 17:58
#40
Maybe I am, who knows. What I do know is that I'm receiving complaints about your posts and you need to stay out of this section now.
Sat, 2008-05-10 18:10
#41
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Well I do disagree I don't think the OP was attempt to open "another thread on how poor people oppress the rich."Well it seemed to me that 500 Apples was expressing some of the kinds soft racism that Arabs experience, not that this in anyway equates with the OP, but 500 Apples experience is probably lessened since he/she culturally integrated in other ways.
So, since 500 Apples appears to be Arab, there is every chance that his/her "employer will deny" him/her "a deserved promotion simply because you look a little different."
It also interests me that mistaking semitic Jews for Arabs says a lot about how things have developed in the last while, since they would before have been identified a Jews, because of their semitic look, something which used to commonly happen to Arabs, but now that Arabs have become public enemy No. 1, the "racialiazation" has changed in form. This racist behaviour even happens at pro-Israeli events.
But then... 500 Apples self-identifies as white...
[ 07 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
1) I made no attempt to set up a hierachy of which forms of racism are the worst, I'm not God I'm not omniscient. I'm not even going to hazard an ignorant guess other than to say it's self-evident a lot of people have it far worse than me.
2) I don't "self-identify" as anything other than "other". I am not a non-hispanic white, I am not african american, I'm not asian and I'm not hispanic, and I currently live in the USA. Those are clearly the only options the forms say so.
[ 10 May 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2008-05-10 18:11
#42
Maybe you are?...listen to yourself.
I can't believe you said that.
This thread isn't for racists remember?
Sat, 2008-05-10 19:34
#43
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]1) I made no attempt to set up a hierachy of which forms of racism are the worst, I'm not God I'm not omniscient. I'm not even going to hazard an ignorant guess other than to say it's self-evident a lot of people have it far worse than me.
2) I don't "self-identify" as anything other than "other". I am not a non-hispanic white, I am not african american, I'm not asian and I'm not hispanic, and I currently live in the USA. Those are clearly the only options the forms say so.
[ 10 May 2008: Message edited by: 500_Apples ][/b]
Probably those check lists should be put out to pasture, unless they are specifically relevant.
Sat, 2008-05-10 21:10
#44
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
[b] angry victim of racism.[/b]
I was angry when i heard my friends mother say she wanted to kill a woman because of her skin colour, making me feel sick to my stomach how dare she say such awful things!!
Maybe the only reason my friends mom "liked" me was because i was friends with her daughter?
Sun, 2008-05-11 00:19
#45
Here is why you are asked, expected, to leave this forum.
The forum is [i]supposed[/i] to be a place where folks- and especially persons of colour and First Nationa peoples- can discuss what to do about racism.
What you have brought into the discussion is a discussion about whether racism exists. Or a little more charitably: what is racism.
I know you don't see it that way, in the end you are just going to have to accept it and do what you will with it.
Whatever people's intentions, is that what you have brought in will amount to ANOTHER discussion taken over by 'can't people of colour be racists too?'
That may be a valid discussion, but it's not going to happen here... for one reason because it will drown out anything else.
Sun, 2008-05-11 00:27
#46
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]You are actually inviting "white folks" to come to the anti-racism forum and tell you about how they have suffered from racism?This is not going to end well.[/b]
Sun, 2008-05-11 00:35
#47
Read retiredguy's first post
I know racism exists why do you say i'm implying it doesn't? I never said that at all. I know People are put down because of there race how much more clearer can i get.
Why can't we all work together to end racism?
This thread dose not exclude anyone from expressing their experience. It is only your interpretation of what you want it to be.
I don't know why you can't see the picture.
Sun, 2008-05-11 01:39
#48
Look.
I've already told you. We can't discuss your previous posts without it being a "what is racism discussion" that takes over the forum.
It's as reliable as a clock, has happened repeatedly, an this is suppossed to be a place where a different kind of discussion can take place.
People will not discuss your earlier posts here. Period. I can empathise with you not getting it. But it isn't happening here.
All I can suggest is taking your bafflement to babblers helping babblers. Mind you, I'm not a moderator, and not as good at interpreting the rules of the board... so I can't say whether the ensuing discussion will be welcomed there either. My guess is that it will depend how it unfolds. But I do know you are free to start a thred there, and you are not free to stay here with the discussion you started.
Sun, 2008-05-11 01:47
#49
To start a discussion thread in another forum, you choose one in the bottom right box.
After you get to the board there, you click on the New Topic box.
[ 11 May 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]
Sun, 2008-05-11 03:58
#50
Cueball
Your missing the point Ken. The OP was a direct request/challenge for white people to come forward with their experiences of what they perceive to be racism against them. Your rote repetition of the guidelines is missing the point.
If you are saying that any suggestion by white people that they have experienced racism should be sanctioned in this forum because it is hogging space used by NWF then the OP is a trap, since it specifically asks that WF talk about experiences of racism.
Besides, none of that actually has anything to do with Makwa's complaint, or Michelle's response.
[ 11 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Sun, 2008-05-11 04:07
#51
You may be right.
I'll admitt I haven't read everything carefully. It's all so discouraging and tiring.
I'll look at the opening post agin too. Among other possibilities, I think it's possible we both missed the boat.