NDP silent on racist statements against Canadian Muslims
Fri, 2008-05-23 06:36
#1
NDP silent on racist statements against Canadian Muslims
Fri, 2008-05-23 06:36
#2
Unlike the Liberals and the Conservatives, the NDP has not issued any reaction to the interference of Israel's ambassador in Canadian internal affairs and his racist and divisive statements targeting Muslim Canadians.
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007273]Split from here[/url]
quote:
...a venue for the enlightened to educate the rest of us about the hopeless limitations of the NDP. -By KenS
And what was the above meant as, KenS? Aren't you talking on both sides of your mouth?
[ 23 May 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:22
#3
Actually Ken S did address this statement in a subsequent post on the NDP Convention thread.
And I agree with him. The anonymity granted by babble often contributes to an environment in which discussions about the NDP are less than productive to say the least.
Perhaps you are a sincerely disillusioned NDP member. Or perhaps you're a Liberal troll trying to stir up shit and ill will against the NDP on a progressive forum. I have no way of knowing if you are who you claim to be.
All I have to go on is that you've been consistently attacking the NDP and certain NDP MPs ever since you started posting here. You are certainly within your rights to do so. But I am under no obligation to respond.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:28
#4
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
[b] And I agree with him. The anonymity granted by babble often contributes to an environment in which discussions about the NDP are less than productive to say the least.[/b]
Yeah lets start in with ad hominem conspiracy crap right away. Always better than answersing a question or responding to a statement.
The point is there. The Israeli ambassador slandered parliment, and made a overtly racist statement, against Canadian Muslims and the NDP has not responded.
Anything on that?
[ 23 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:30
#5
I'm not convinced the NDP has not issued a statement.
The fact none of us have heard one in iteslef means that.
We know:
Bob Rae is a media darling, especially now that he is a 'Liberal statesman'. All he has to do is pick up the phone, if he was not called first.
Same for the government of couurse.
The NDP has no public credibility on foreign affairs [and 'newswise' this is foreign affiars even if its foreigners meddling here]. It's hardly a riot Rae outmanouevering the NDP, its generally a piece of cake around foreih relations. [Afghanistan being the noteable exception.]
IF they haven't issued a press release- that's internal fatalism about not being heard, or wanting to minimize the release of statements no one pays attention to which further diminishes what little credibility you have. [A dynamic a good many babblers are oblivious to.] The latter just being another form of fatalism.
There's no reason for anyone to give the NDP a pass on that account. It's rather pathetic even if you find it understandable. What I personally find pathetic is not any one of these lets-take-[another]-pass, because looked at by themselves most of them make sense. I don't like that nothing is ever done to correct the situation.
I think what people are aiming / fishing for in "no guts" is a fear of alarming Zionists in and near the NDP. That isn't it.
In terms of pragmatic fears / inclination to pandering, the NDP is in essentially the same position as the Liberals: there is nothing to fear from distancing yourself from the positions taken by Israel. [IE, in both cases, the voting base among Jews is pretty stable... and most who judge almost entirely around Zionism already do not support you.]
If anything both parties have more to be feared from alienating Muslims. While people no doubt will snear at you a numnber of NDP MPs have gone and continue to go to some lengths to build and solidify connections with Muslims. Jack Layton to a lesser extent, but at least in supporting role. That some of them may harbour positions some consider Zionist is not contradictory with that outreach.
[Obviously not including Pat Martin.... which I only have a need to say because some wise ass will say, "Like Pat Martin.".]
Pat Martin is shrewd by the way in how he plays the line. He keeps his comments to times and places where his having said them will only be noticed by the people he wants to hear them, and people such as babblers who will also hear and understandably take umbrage. His comments don't get broad play- and that's intentional. You can get away with freelancing policy [ie, unequivocal support of Israel and rude dismissal of its critics] if you keep it to the margins.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:32
#6
quote:
The Canadian Muslim "hordes", I'm grateful to say, are very much capable of thinking for themselves; for the most part, they seem to value the NDP for both its contribution to political discourse and its ability to represent their concerns.As for whether I think you personally are 'worth shit' or not: I have no sense of you beyond your opinion and manners, so that is all I can judge here - but I must admit I haven't seen much of value in your repetitive contributions. By LTD
There is more value in shooting the messenger than asking the legitimate question as to Why the NDP failed to react to the racist statements, unlike the two other national Parties.
"..they seem to value the NDP for both its contribution to political discourse and its ability to represent their concerns."
You cannot even notice your empty rhetoric and hot air, otherwise you would have asked yourself: How come its ability to represent their concerns has not been put into action now?
You and the rest of the 'My Party right or wrong' are not fooling anybody. You are merely engaging in an exercise of shooting the messenger and distracting from the real issue.
But let me put it this way: Those who are in a position to condemn racism and fail to do it, are condoning it. And the NDP is in that position.
Keep defending the NDP on this particular matter. A feather in your base-ball cap to defend those who condone racism.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:33
#7
Cueball
You are building connections with Canadian Muslims by saying fuck all about racist attacks against them? How does that work?
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:37
#8
remind
Rae never made a comment about Baker's Muslim comments, he was simply responding to Baker's comments regarding him (Rae) personally and the 2006 Liberal convention, and that is why Rae responded and not because he was issuing a statement against the whole of Baker's commentary.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:39
#9
Cueball
True. Nonetheless there is not statement from the NDP about either issue.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:43
#10
quote:
Actually Ken S did address this statement in a subsequent post on the NDP Convention thread.And I agree with him. The anonymity granted by babble often contributes to an environment in which discussions about the NDP are less than productive to say the least.
Perhaps you are a sincerely disillusioned NDP member. Or perhaps you're a Liberal troll trying to stir up shit and ill will against the NDP on a progressive forum. I have no way of knowing if you are who you claim to be.
All I have to go on is that you've been consistently attacking the NDP and certain NDP MPs ever since you started posting here. You are certainly within your rights to do so. But I am under no obligation to respond. -John K
The NDP is a position to condemn racist statements and it failed to do so. It therefore condoned it.
Keep defending the NDP in its condonation of racism.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:46
#11
remind
True? Of course it is true, so people need to stop spouting that Bob Rae somehow is now the poster boy for supporting Muslims in Canada, when he was simply taking umbrage about Baker's comments concerning him and the LP! As such, the Liberals have made no comment either!
Pretty disengenuous of you cueball to know that Rae was simply referring to comments made about him and the Liberals, and still try to portray it as something it wasn't in order to bash the NDP!
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:47
#12
quote:
Rae never made a comment about Baker's Muslim comments, he was simply responding to Baker's comments regarding him (Rae) personally and the 2006 Liberal convention, and that is why Rae responded and not because he was issuing a statement against the whole of Baker's commentary. -By remind
Did the NDP fail to condemn the racist statements of the ambassador for the reason that Rae didn't condemn them?
[ 23 May 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:50
#13
quote:
Rae never made a comment about Baker's Muslim comments, he was simply responding to Baker's comments regarding him (Rae) personally and the 2006 Liberal convention, and that is why Rae responded and not because he was issuing a statement against the whole of Baker's commentary.
Cueball:
quote:
True. Nonetheless there is not statement from the NDP about either issue.
True. But a great deal of mileage was drawn out of "even Rae could make a statement defending Muslims".
But apparently he did not. So the relevance of the comparison to the NDP is what?
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:54
#14
Cueball
He did in fact defend a Muslim MP who was directly attacked. His statements were general, and a chastisement of the ambassador for the whole of his statements which was pretty lengthy.
All of this is superior to the NDP's nothing at all.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:54
#15
Bob Rae did comment on the ambassador's statements.
quote:
Bob Rae, Liberal MP and foreign affairs critic, said he doesn't agree with comments the ambassador made in the Globe."I think Ambassador Baker should reflect on his comments because I don't think they were either accurate or constructive," Rae told CTV News on Thursday. [url=http://tinyurl.com/5zqn6a]http://tinyurl.com/5zqn6a[/url]
[ 23 May 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:56
#16
quote:
Did the NDP fail to condemn the racist statements of the ambassador for the reason that Rae didn't condemn them?
I don't know. Neither does anyone else here.
I gave my best guess why. Remember that this is ultimately a staff and leadership function. Everyone here who has a connection to the NDP can express that they think it shouldn't have happened, and several have.
But continuing to ask why it happened becomes rhetorical, because no one here can answer that.
Fri, 2008-05-23 07:56
#17
Cueball
Anyway, they are not listening. They are just circling the wagons, as usual. Fewer wagons these days, too.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:04
#18
remind
quote:
Originally posted by mahmud:
[b]Bob Rae did comment on the ambassador's statements. [/b]
No, he made a comment on the ambassador's comments regarding himself and the Liberal Party, there is a big difference between that and what you and cueball have suggested. There is absolutely NO mention, by Rae, of anything [b]Muslim[/b] at all!
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:08
#19
quote:
I don't know. Neither does anyone else here.I gave my best guess why. Remember that this is ultimately a staff and leadership function. Everyone here who has a connection to the NDP can express that they think it shouldn't have happened, and several have.
But continuing to ask why it happened becomes rhetorical, because no one here can answer that. -KenS
KenS,
Don't you find the silence on the ambassador's statement intriguing and NDP's non response to my emails to Jack Layton and Paul Dear even more intriguing ?
I posted about the matter only after the non-response of the NDP to my private e-mails. Only to be lynched by the 'My Party right or wrong' squad, NDPers like me but none of them directly affected, offended or concerned by the statements in question. Their sole concern is to defend the NDP, fuck Muslims and fuck all.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:18
#20
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]True. Nonetheless there is not statement from the NDP about either issue.[/b]
Why are you denying this in another thread then?
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:20
#21
quote:
Don't you find the silence on the ambassador's statement intriguing and NDP's non response to my emails to Jack Layton and Paul Dear even more intriguing ?
I wish I had a dollar for all my unanswered emails- many of them to people I know.
Not a satisfactory answer. But it is a reality.
I offered to help you get an answer. Sometimes answers come easily. If you are determined to get an naswer, you'll get one. I don't blame people put off by that, but's a reality. Write your MP. You'll get an answer [they have to staff to make sure that happens]. Right a party, even 'your party' and you'll get an answer if all the circumstances are favourable... and whether they like what you have to say is only a small part of that. Politicians know how to deal with people who don't agree with them, very few are shy of that.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:25
#22
quote:
They are just circling the wagons, as usual. Fewer wagons these days, too.
A lot fewer actually.
Normal people want to be part of discussions with at least a shot at being useful. And they are totally put off by intellectual hefting of artillery and the frequency of being pushed into what does look too much like 'circling the wagons'.
Why bother?
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:27
#23
Cueball
And YET, over some 50 odd posts not one single NDP supporter has offered a single opinion on the question asked. Why no statement from the NDP on this issue?
Not even a guess.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:33
#24
remind
quote:
Originally posted by mahmud:
[b]I posted about the matter only after the non-response of the NDP to my private e-mails. Only to be lynched by the 'My Party right or wrong' squad, NDPers like me but none of them directly affected, offended or concerned by the statements in question. Their sole concern is to defend the NDP, fuck Muslims and fuck all.[/b]
When and where did you send the emails to? The MP's have been on a break since May 9th, and will not be back in Ottawa until May 26th.
Nor can I see that anyone "lynched" you in either thread.
It is very apparent from the news clips about this that Rae and Alghabra were called and questioned because Baker singled them out in his commentary. Not because they were making "official" statements on behalf of the Liberal Party.
What I am doing is calling in question your assertation that the Liberal Party actually had something to say about Baker's comments regarding Muslim Canadians influence on public policy, and as such was doing something the NDP wasn't. Pointing out the Liberals have actually said fuck all regarding Baker's Muslim comments, is NOT "lynching" you, nor defending the NDP, nor saying "fuck Muslims".
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:35
#25
Yes, but , aren't you the one always saying on here that failure to denounce something can never be held against someone?
That it's a matter of principle and all that?
So whenever people ask you to denounce something that Castro, or Hezbollah or Ahmadinejad and his buddies do, you claim that we can't dictate what you decide to respond to? You know, like when they held the Holocaust denial Conference in Iran?
Why, yet again, this hypocricy?
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:36
#26
remind
BTW, this thread should be in the Canadian Politics forum and not the ARF.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:40
#27
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b] Why no statement from the NDP on this issue?
[/b]
Probably because they were not contacted as were Rae and Alghabra.
There has been NO party give official comentary on Baker's statement, as of yet.
And I suspect NO parties have because they have ALL been on break since this broke in the news.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:40
#28
quote:
No, he made a comment on the ambassador's comments regarding himself and the Liberal Party, there is a big difference between that and what you and cueball have suggested. There is absolutely NO mention, by Rae, of anything Muslim at all! -By Remind
Here is from the link I provided above. Dos it look like Rae's comments are about himself?
quote:
Israel ambassador's comments 'unjustified': criticsUpdated Thu. May. 8 2008 10:00 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
Israeli Ambassador to Canada Alan Baker on Thursday defended comments he made to a national newspaper regarding Canada's Muslim population.
Alan Baker told The Globe and Mail he is concerned Canada's burgeoning Muslim population is shifting this country's policies in the Middle East. The Globe interview appears on the same day Israel celebrates its 60th year of independence.
Baker told CTV's Mike Duffy Live that Muslim communities have impacted foreign policy in countries like Britain, France and Scandanavia -- and that he "fears" Canada might follow.
"And I think that wouldn't gel with Canadian values of mutual respect," said Baker.
His comments have sparked criticism from the Opposition and members of Canada's Muslim community.
Bob Rae, Liberal MP and foreign affairs critic, said he doesn't agree with comments the ambassador made in the Globe.
"I think Ambassador Baker should reflect on his comments because I don't think they were either accurate or constructive," Rae told CTV News on Thursday.
Baker asks in the interview whether the growing numbers of Muslims in Canada will "absorb" themselves into Canadian society, or "push" their values and principles onto Canadians". And this is the gist of the problem," Baker said in the interview with the Globe.
And even if Rae did not make any comment whatsoever. What does that have to do with the NDP not commenting?
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:46
#29
quote:
And YET, over some 50 odd posts not one single NDP supporter has offered a single opinion on the question asked. Why no statement from the NDP on this issue?
Not even a guess.
A number of opinions offered- usually ending in there should have been a statement.
And I did give a guess why not- if it is confirmed there isn't one, which by my guess you can tell would not surprise me.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:47
#30
quote:
BTW, this thread should be in the Canadian Politics forum and not the ARF. -By remind
I beg to differ. This is about racist statements.
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:48
#31
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]BTW, this thread should be in the Canadian Politics forum and not the ARF.[/b]
Why?
Fri, 2008-05-23 08:57
#32
remind
Okay, let's break down what Baker said that Rae would respond to in regards to his use of "accurate".
There is only one comment he could have been referring to and that was Baker's comments regarding the Liberal convention:
quote:
some delegates to the 2006 Liberal leadership convention sought to use the Jewish religion of Bob Rae's wife against him.
and other than that Baker's comments were hypothetical musings about the role Muslims have played in Britian's and France's politics and how they may be played out here in Canada in the future.
Now, moving along to Rae's use of "not constructive", I personally take that as being not constructive to the Zionist Israelis cause within Canada's government and within the Canadian population at large.
Because we ALL know that our federal government started to be pro-Israelis under Paul Martin and has continued to be so under Harper.
Fri, 2008-05-23 09:06
#33
quote:
Yes, but , aren't you the one always saying on here that failure to denounce something can never be held against someone?That it's a matter of principle and all that?
So whenever people ask you to denounce something that Castro, or Hezbollah or Ahmadinejad and his buddies do, you claim that we can't dictate what you decide to respond to? You know, like when they held the Holocaust denial Conference in Iran?
Why, yet again, this hypocricy?
Jeff,
Are you equating reactions from political parties to reactions from individuals?
Nobody asked anybody here to denounce the Israeli ambassdor's racist statements or denounce what I believe to be the NDP's condonation of racist statements.
Remind me of (Tarek) Fatahism's stipulation that Muslims must every time condemn any disgusting statement or action taken by any Muslim anywhere in the world, otherwise they are "Islamists".
Personally, I am criticizing individuals because they rushed to defend a Party that condoned racism, not because they did not -themselves- condemn racism.
[ 23 May 2008: Message edited by: mahmud ]
Fri, 2008-05-23 09:12
#34
remind
What party has condoned racism?
Fri, 2008-05-23 10:36
#35
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]BTW, this thread should be in the Canadian Politics forum and not the ARF.[/b]
I agree.