Are you done yet?
Mallick Column part 2
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:27
#52
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:29
#53
I think i made my point.
Still wondering if anyone has a counter-argument that doesn't devolve into calling me a sexist, classist, elitist, crappist, englishist, argumentist on the second sentence.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: fischerville ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:32
#54
Think again. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:35
#55
Oh, right... it's open season on Bristol because she's white and her mother's conservative. She should have known better.
Nicely done, Scout. I'm convinced.
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:39
#56
Maysie
Hey folks. This thread has kinda degenerated into back and forths, and even though there have been no moderator warnings to anyone, I've been reading and am now giving notice to get back on topic, or I will be closing it.
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:51
#57
M. Spector
Must protect Heather at all costs...
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:56
#58
Heather's column:
quote:
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.--------------------------------------
And I hope this is adequately "on topic" bcg...I do hope that we can get off the "small delicate things" like ego, etc.
And thanks for the wiki history, Ghislaine. These things help mightily.
---------------
Heather is appealing for help here. And I think she wrote the column in a mood of fear, wanting to jar her reader into an awareness of just how bad it looks for us all, "while you are all
debating small, delicate things..."
I've been hoping to see someone say something like "Gosh, I've never seen her like this. Her writing goes beyond her usual push at the pale of mainstream literary acceptability.
"Maybe she's running scared. Maybe I should be."
Does anyone out there feel more than a little upset about Republican fortunes in the U.S., a surprise at the degree of social penetration by the far right? A wonderment at their fixation on the task of creating a theocratic state?
I think more than one or two, perhaps? I certainly am, and Bageant does not provide balm.
I just wish Heather had been up to revealing her own fears without resorting to the language of the folks she's trying to describe.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 08:58
#59
Timebandit
quote:
Originally posted by fischerville:
[b]Can you tell me, Scout, what good was served by Heather's vicious attack on Sarah Palin's family?a) "Bristol has what is known in Britain as the look of the teen mum, the 'pramface.'"
b) "Todd looks like a roughneck"
c) "Levi 'I'm a fuckin' redneck' Johnson"Totally useless. I thought maybe if the redneck quote was from his Facebook page or something, that would have made a point. Not sure if it is or not.[/b]
It IS from his facebook page, taken down as soon as it caught media attention.
ETA: There seems to be an assumption on the purpose and intent of the column, on this thread and others. Several posters have articulated that the kind of language and vitriol will not win over Palin supporters -- But is that really the intent here?
I would argue that it isn't, and that this is neither a fair nor relevant criticism.
I also think sometimes you need to call things what they are. Isn't that what columnists are supposed to do? Mallick is not a social worker, for pity's sake.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:05
#60
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
[b]Does anyone out there feel more than a little upset about Republican fortunes in the U.S., a surprise at the degree of social penetration by the far right? A wonderment at their fixation on the task of creating a theocratic state?[/b]
Only for the past 7Ѕ years. Where have you been?
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:06
#61
What i see is this idea that if you attack Republicans, any way you can, you've scored a point for "our side".
But I agree with George Victor: if you argue at their level, of what benefit is that?
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:08
#62
Thanks for the info on his facebook profile. Didn't know that.
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:16
#63
remind
Seeing as how some people skipped right past, ghislaine's posting of the historical roots of the term "white trash", including ghislaine, let's have a look at it again.
quote:
The term white trash originated in the Baltimore and Washington, DC area during the 1820s post-revolutionary war reconstruction boom. During that period, many poor people migrated to the area, and white and black semi-skilled workers were competing for the same jobs, resources and marriage partners.[1] [b]The term white trash[/b] first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by [b]upper-class[/b] United States southerners [b]of all races[/b] against poor whites. It was synonymous with the slurs sand hiller and clay eater. [b]White trash were hyperbolically assumed to farm ineptly on poor land,[/b] and therefore resort to eating clay in order to survive.In 1854 Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote the chapter "Poor White Trash" in her book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Stowe tells the reader that slavery not only produces "degraded, miserable slaves", but also poor whites who are even more degraded and miserable. The plantation system forced those whites to struggle for subsistence. Beyond economic factors, [b]Stowe traces this class[/b] to the shortage of schools and churches in their community, and says that [b]both blacks and whites [/b]in the area look down on these "poor white trash".[1] Sociologist Max Weber described white trash as "[those] not owning slaves
**bolding mine
It was [b]not[/b] started as a racial juxtaposition, for comparative synopsis to those who were "black, yellow or brown trash". Indeed, it was a stand alone classist pejorative used against poor whites, by both blacks and whites. Which is a fact that some know/knew, and as Mallick quite obviously does.
She adroitly, in my view, turned the historically classist term around to apply to those, who in other times would have used such a classist term againt poor whites whom were marginalized. As such, she indicates exactly who the "white trash" are in our society today, and really indicates who they were in history too, and thus her use of it is indeed not "classist" in this sense.
Moreover, her use of it most definitely is not racist in construct, nor latent intent.
Now, beyond that, I agree with scout in respect to her comments to fisherville regarding his use of classy as a sexist weapon against women. And I feel that it is a truly classist and sexist construct, that is more destructive and heinous, than anything Mallick said, or rather did not say...
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:19
#64
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by Timebandit:
[QB]ETA: There seems to be an assumption on the purpose and intent of the column, on this thread and others. Several posters have articulated that the kind of language and vitriol will not win over Palin supporters -- But is that really the intent here?
I would argue that it isn't, and that this is neither a fair nor relevant criticism.
On being on of those people, the only reason I talked about that was because it was brought up by somebody else as being a reason and that line went theoretically from there. More hypothetically then anything else. There's been a few different lines of conversation that have gotten muddled up.
So yes I would agree with you here. When I read this initially that's not what I even considered as the intent of it.
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:23
#65
Just for the record, I wasn't offended, nor am I usually found parsing semantics. I know what Heather was getting at and I have used the term "White Trash" myself on occasion (usually to refer to myself, but occasionally directed at others in a heated rant amongst like-minded individuals).
My objection is more the converse of Timebandit's position, and is much broader than language. I think that columnists should be using their position to win over fence-sitters in these scary divisive times, and I believe that throwing insults at our cultural opposites is counterproductive to this. Others disagree. That's fine.
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:24
#66
Agreed. Thank you Jacob.
Thu, 2008-09-11 09:53
#67
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
[b] I think that columnists should be using their position to win over fence-sitters in these scary divisive times, and I believe that throwing insults at [i]our cultural opposites[/i] is counterproductive to this. Others disagree. That's fine.[/b]
If "fence sitters" took offense to what Mallick was saying, and the mirror that Mallick was holding, then I would argue that they indeed are not fence sitters.
In fact, I suggest the opposite should/would/could be true. That if some looked in the mirror that Mallick held up, and saw themselves in it, and were disquieted by what they saw. It would motivate them to not be that which they saw.
Moreover, your use of "cultural opposities" could well be even more of an insult than what you perceive Mallick as doing, as it could denote a self-perception of superiority to them. As it could be construed as meaning "less cultured".
I do not think it is a columnist's job to try and win over anyone. I believe it is their job to expose and then let people decide where to go with what they see. "Trying to win over" smacks of condescending propaganda, to me.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 11:49
#68
Here is an excerpt from Heather's post yesterday:
"I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash...)"
Ok, so we can safely dispense with the "white", because we can all agree Sara Palin is trash right. Can we safely assume that all white trash are just a sub-group of the people we call trash? And that these trash people are defined by their conservative views?
I live in a neighbourhood that is populated by a quite a number of eastern european canadians. many of whom hold conservative views. they're white. they're working hard, they're raising young families, they're proud of where they came from, but glad for a change. they're saving up dimes to buy a big house in a cookie-cutter subdivision in York Region (i can't really figure out why, but... moving on), or sending money home to bring their grandmothers over. Oh, and they routinely pick up furniture they see discarded on the side of the road. These are all generalizations, but i've lived here long enough to see my stuff disappear off the curb in two minutes or less.
Are conservative-minded people trash? if someone came into my neighbourhood and started calling my neighbours trash, i would take deep personal offense. Not because someone held a mirror up to me and i didn't like what i see, but because human decency should prevent us from calling other human beings trash. This is a fundamental reason why racism is such an ugly thing, because when you can look someone in the eye and see only trash to be thrown out, there's something wrong with you.
Thu, 2008-09-11 11:53
#69
quote:
Are conservative-minded people trash
Can you make a distinction between "conservative minded" and rabid vicious reactionaries? Are you afraid of insulting fascists?
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:01
#70
If Heather Mallick had written a scathing article about fascists, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But there is a vast gulf between the murderous ideology that killed so many people, and ordinary "hillbillies" who shun knowledge of things foreign.
I know there are a lot of people who were writing her such incredibly nasty things (up to 374 posts on the CBC website). They're not civil, not reasonable, and not worth talking to.
But not trash.
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: fischerville ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:06
#71
quote:
If Heather Mallick had written a scathing article about fascists, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But there is a vast gulf between the murderous ideology that killed so many people, and ordinary "hillbillies" who shun knowledge of things foreign.
Tell that to the relatives of the hundreds of thousand dead Iraquis and other victims of american imperialism.
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:12
#72
remind
We routinely throw out our governments, or electoral representatives, for the trash that they are. And I see Mallick's words as stating just that.
Palin is in our field of reference because she is a elected official, other than that we would not know, or even care about who she was or what she did. And she is someone who is being put into a potential placement of the 2nd highest office, of the most abusive use of military power in the world. As such, those who are judging her, as trash, do so in the context of her political actions historically, and what her stated position is on things that would/could impact upon all of us in the future.
Indicating that she is trash that should be chucked, is a political context, not a personal individual one. Please do not conflate the 2.
I stand by my intepretation, in an above post of mine, as to want Mallick meant further by her use of "white trash". And will further add, that that Palin does not give a fuck, about "conservative minded people", and even less about anyone else. She is a white person who exploits everyone else and those who are like her are the trash that also need to be thrown out of any office of power, and be prevented form holding any office of power. And this is done by speaking the truth about who and what they are.
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:16
#73
I'm reasonably certain that it is a progressive talking point that words hurt. Racial slurs, class slurs, national slurs, sexist slurs (geez, someone told me today that "classy" was more sexist than "pramface"), all of these have been eschewed by progressive-thinking people.
My older boy routinely tries to tell his younger brother he is a "turd", an offense for which he loses computer/video game privileges for 24 hours. Why? Because i learned growing up to treat people as if they have personal value. No one is a turd, and no one is trash, no one can be just thrown out.
Why is the death penalty wrong? Why were the gas chambers wrong?
Can somebody please tell me why it's suddenly ok to call somebody trash?
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:18
#74
I'm 100% certain that when Heather Mallick used the words "white trash", she wasn't just talking about Sarah Palin. Read the article again, and try to convince me otherwise.
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:36
#75
remind
Well, you also thought you were correct when you stated that you are not being sexist and classist, for using the term "classy" in reference to women and their actions, as a measure of their societal worth.
You were wrong then and you are wrong now.
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:40
#76
I am not sexist, nor classist. Anyone who knows me would sign an affidavit to that effect. Classy is not an insult, and a writer who pens a "classy dressdown" of a political candidate can be male or female of any class. There's no way you can misconstrue my admiration for Maureen Dowd as either sexist nor classist.
However there's no way you can misconstrue "pramface" as anything but sexist or classist.
Thu, 2008-09-11 12:57
#77
My main point is that Heather Mallick's article was regressive, illiberal claptrap that has done more harm than good. The best thing i've heard anyone say about her article was that it's "crass". How about "well-argued"? Is that too much to ask? "Crass" and "logical" don't usually meet in the same article.
And i'm done for today.
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:12
#78
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
[b]You may have a point regarding class but as far as racism goes you can forget it. White folks are the dominant race in the US and here, racism my ass.White folks who are proud to be ignorant and intolerant are white trash and it's all over the US - truckers hats and Kid Rock baby. White trash is in today's society a culture of willful prideful ignorance and they are laughing at the lefties "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the "insult" white trash. Suckers.
Forest for the trees lefites, forest for the trees.[/b]
Still a toxic cunt, I see. I would have thought that you would have wound up in the hospital by now at the hands of your significant other, which is where most loudmouth, hate filled shrews wind up sooner or later.
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:14
#79
ElizaQ
Moderator please.
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:19
#80
Maysie
Done, the troll is gone.
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:19
#81
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by Scunt:
[b]Still a toxic cunt, I see. I would have thought that you would have wound up in the hospital by now at the hands of your significant other, which is where most loudmouth, hate filled shrews wind up sooner or later.[/b]
Go see a pyschiatrist before your hurt yourself... actually, don't. Thanks.
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:20
#82
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]Done, the troll is gone.[/b]
Thanks a bunch!
Thu, 2008-09-11 13:26
#83
quote:
Go see a pyschiatrist before your hurt yourself
rather go and see a psychiatrist and they will gladly hurt you.
Thu, 2008-09-11 14:25
#84
I wonder who that was! How very flattering that someone can't get over me. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2008-09-11 15:20
#85
Go Scout!!!
Thu, 2008-09-11 15:23
#86
Holy crap. That was a special moment, I don't think. Thanks for getting rid of Mr. Wonderful so quickly, bcg.
And thanks for being you, Scout, and not that guy. Even though I completely disagree with you on whether "white trash" is sexist and racist or not. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Thu, 2008-09-11 15:31
#87
Anyhow, this is long, and probably doesn't need to continue. If people want to continue the discussion on the term "white trash" then take it to the thread that bigcitygal linked to.