What do you think Cueball, how can it be "progressive" or "strategic"?
If the "strategy" is to get "progressive" politicians could you tell me why the LPC would even be a consideration?
Why is rabble giving Liberal Alice Klein of NOW a media platform?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:40
#52
RevolutionPlease
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:41
#53
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]Are there examples of NDP columnists expressing the same disdain for other "progressive" politicians?[/b]
What is an "NDP columnist"?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:42
#54
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]I pointed out for example, that Kleins position on Israel, is substantially better than much of the NDP and lightyears ahead of Pat Martin.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
But Klein's not running for office and the party she recommends' policy for Palestine is worse than the one she pillories.
I don't get it Cueball, you're all over the place?
[img]confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:42
#55
Pogo
Great thread. Wish I had a filter so that I could weed out all unrelated crap being posted.
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:44
#56
RevolutionPlease
If Klein had Palestine as her priority wouldn't that lead her to suggest NDP in every riding?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:44
#57
[b] CB: "[i]It asserts the right of NDP'rs to decide what is and is not progressive.[/i] I don't happen to think that Jack Layton is a progressive politician. I often express my distain for him. But JFTB, wants to make expressing distain for Jack Layton banned at this site, because of course (according to JFTB) Jack is a progressive politician, because he is in the NDP.
[i]Asserting this idea puts any opposition to the NDP or its leader, at this site, out of bounds, regardless of who it comes from, Alice Klein, or myself.[/i]" [/b]
Not near that simplistic, and not what i saw being argued If some known Liberal party of Canada hacks get featured here regularly, starting with writing the already staple corporate drivel on how its the NDPs fault again for electing Harper then I think JbtB has fair reason to be upset. This has been done to death here already, and IMO refuted many timnes already, although I suppose its possible that this new progressive geature writer hasn't even read rabble.ca.
There has been countless other critical-of NDP pieces published here without much todo, by other people who actually have the nerve to identify as left-of-NDP and noone I recall questioned there right. (though possibly their reasoning) So, the question again is how far to the right is rabble willing to stretch the already bland 'progressive' label for potential writers and on what actual basis is that already abused term judged upon now? ( I do believe that such a word is a valid description, for some) Now onto other things.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:44
#58
Cueball
There is no discernable difference between the NDP position on Palestine and that of the Liberals. Sorry. That is another urban myth.
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]Only if you believe voting Liberal can be either "progressive" or "strategic". That urban legend's been debunked.[/b]
My personal view is that the idea that the NDP is a progressive party is also an urban legend.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:45
#59
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]What is an "NDP columnist"?[/b]
You know, like, an article, like, slamming Dion and exalting the 'stache. Oh and written by someone with a website to shill.
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:49
#60
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]There is no discernable difference between the NDP position on Palestine and that of the NDP. Sorry. That is another urban myth. My personal view is that the idea that the NDP is a progressive party is also an urban legend.[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
Huh. Are you always this obstinate. Like Erik asked can you answer the freakin question?
So which party is progressive Mr. oh so Partisan?
It's like pulling teeth getting a real opinion from you, not blather.
No discernable difference between the NDP and the NDP? Thanks Sherlock.
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:50
#61
Cueball
Sorry the NDP and the Liberals, its called a typo, Watson.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[QBNot near that simplistic, and not what i saw being argued If some known Liberal party of Canada hacks get featured here regularly, starting with writing the already staple corporate drivel on how its the NDPs fault again for electing Harper then I think JbtB has fair reason to be upset. This has been done to death here already, and IMO refuted many timnes already, although I suppose its possible that this new progressive geature writer hasn't even read rabble.ca. [/QB]
No of course, the correct line is not that it is the NDP's fault that Harper got elected for splitting the vote against the Liberals, but the Green Parties fault for splitting the vote against the NDP.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:51
#62
You are rude, RP. This was a civilized conversation until you got here.
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:53
#63
RevolutionPlease
Oh you must have between the NDP and the CPC because I know you're a Con plant. Is that a trifecta or quad.
One thing you're not is helping Canadians advocate and organize for change. That's what troubles me about your behavior.
Shenanigans.
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:54
#64
Cueball
Whose advaocating for change the NDP?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:56
#65
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]You are rude, RP. This was a civilized conversation until you got here.[/b]
How so Unionist, I'm asking questions, where have I been rude?
In not accepting the non-answers?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:56
#66
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]There is no discernable difference between the NDP position on Palestine and that of the NDP. Sorry. That is another urban myth.My personal view is that the idea that the NDP is a progressive party is also an urban legend.
[/b]
We know, that seems to be your only line here of late. Hence my terrible comments about you dividing everything into hard "left" and all the rest. You are also in some other progressive's opinions here wrong about that too, that te NDP has some clearly different stands on Palestine than other NA parties like the liberals, but sometimes us Orange "Stalinists" tire of always going over the samne ground on the same small issue of concern to most voting Canadians. The NDP remains a Democratic party. Now, one last time, are you just going to use this as yet another opportunity to express your own wee taste preferences, while getting upset if others question that that too may just colour your own judgement a tad, or are you going to allow us to get to the questions Jan from the Bruce raised?
Mon, 2008-10-20 18:58
#67
Cueball
One of my favourite threads here was the one where all these NDP'rs came out to say how much different the NDP position on Palestine was from the Liberals, and all the Zionists on the site came on to say how that was ridiculous, because they are more or less the same.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:00
#68
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Whose advaocating for change the NDP?[/b]
I am and plenty others here having been asking questions. I've expressed my displeasure with this campaign but I'm not going to sit back and let them be attacked like this.
I'll take a break as it's been suggested I'm being rude. I'll rethink but I'm upset that JFTB thread was derailed long before I showed up.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:01
#69
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]How so Unionist, I'm asking questions, where have I been rude?
In not accepting the non-answers?[/b]
What answer do you want. I have offered plenty.
The assertion here is like the one in the Matrix, where you can take the Blue pill and forget everything, and take the Green pill and "go down the Rabbit hole." It is a false dichotomy. I will go with Zizec who said: "I want a third pill".
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:02
#70
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]I am and plenty others here having been asking questions. I've expressed my displeasure with this campaign but I'm not going to sit back and let them be attacked like this.
I'll take a break as it's been suggested I'm being rude. I'll rethink but I'm upset that JFTB thread was derailed long before I showed up.[/b]
I thought that Unionist was being tongue and cheak when he said you were being rude. I certainly did not think you were being out of step with the tenor of the thread, actually I thought you brought the level up.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:03
#71
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]One of my favourite threads here was the one where all these NDP'rs came out to say how much different the NDP position on Palestine was from the Liberals, and all the Zionists on the site came on to say how that was ridiculous, because they are more or less the same.[/b]
And the Zionists have what to do with the price of tea in China? What did the Muslims have to say?
Besides, Canadians have the final choice in Canada.
Keep tilting.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:03
#72
Q: "No of course, the correct line is not that it is the NDP's fault that Harper got elected for splitting the vote against the Liberals, but the Green Parties fault for splitting the vote against the NDP."
Um the Green party ran almost hand in hand with the liberals this time, didn't you notice? And they endorsed very much the same policies, as they openly admitted. So, several million Canadian "progressives" and "leftists" still consider the NDP to be distinct from both, hence the vote. Are they allowed? Now, since you nolonger show any capacity or incination to address what others say in an honest manner, I'll guess I'll just have to move onto another.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:06
#73
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]And the Zionists have what to do with the price of tea in China? What did the Muslims have to say?[/b]
They know lots about this. They have been actively promoting a consensus among the mainstream Canadian political parties on this issue for years. They know precisely what they are talking about.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:09
#74
M. Spector
Threads like this are why moderators were invented.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:10
#75
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]One of my favourite threads here was the one where all these NDP'rs came out to say how much different the NDP position on Palestine was from the Liberals, and all the Zionists on the site came on to say how that was ridiculous, because they are more or less the same.[/b]
Yes, I remember, and I was quite amused how easily you agree with Zionist manipulators when it suits your own purposes. Others like myself OTOH demonstrated several clear differences, but feel free to link to that old one again and I'll gladly try and point out to you again the differences between everything and nothing. I presume none of you are going to defend your suggestions that this Liberal hack is really no different than other presumed NDP hacks published here so I really must move on.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:13
#76
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Threads like this are why moderators were invented.[/b]
Feel free to add some substantial comments then Spector, starting with the subject raised by the guy who opened the thread. I know how you like being seen as an objective authoritative commentator.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:13
#77
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Yes, I remember, and I was quite amused how easily you agree with Zionist manipulators when it suits your own purposes. Others like myself OTOH demonstrated several clear differences, but feel free to link to that old one again and I'll gladly try and point out to you again the differences between everything and nothing. I presume none of you are going to defend your suggestions that this Liberal hack is really no different than other presumed NDP hacks published here so I really must move on.[/b]
Off course, out with ad hominem smear. I am with terrorists, (In league with the Zionist manipulators) once again. This is a ridiculous arguement, as if an Arab agreeing with an Israeli on the geographic location Jerusalem indicates that the Arab is a collaborator.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:15
#78
RevolutionPlease
K, I'm sorry for getting worked up. I guess where I'm coming from is it's difficult to see supposed like minds attacking each other.
How do we meet? Klein should be attacking Harper not Layton. What means to an end is she trying to achieve?
Can anyone cite examples of similar invectice from the NDP side that carries the same weight?
Honestly, even the Greens got coverage I could only wish for the NDP. Only ostriches disagree in my sample poll. +/- 5%
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:16
#79
M. Spector
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
[b]Feel free to add some substantial comments then Spector, starting with the subject raised by the guy who opened the thread. I know how you like being seen as an objective authoritative commentator.[/b]
Your hostile trolling has made a complete mess of this thread, thanks to the lack of any moderator's intervention.
I wouldn't dignify this mess with any further substantive comments. And I have already dealt with the subject raised in the OP.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:17
#80
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]They know lots about this. They have been actively promoting a consensus among the mainstream Canadian political parties on this issue for years. They know precisely what they are talking about.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]
uummmm... and I politely ask again, what do Muslims have to say?
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:19
#81
Cueball
Well, I don't really have a lot of direct experience of the election as it played out in the mainstream press -- I hardly read anything about it. Mostly I experienced it in relationship to this web site. It seemed to me that the NDP rank and file were not above some pretty vicious attacks.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:20
#82
Cueball
quote:
Originally posted by RevolutionPlease:
[b]uummmm... and I politely ask again, what do Muslims have to say?[/b]
Not much on that thread, but generally, yes the perception among Arabs is that the the position of the NDP and the Liberals is pretty much the same.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:28
#83
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Your hostile trolling has made a complete mess of this thread, thanks to the lack of any moderator's intervention.I wouldn't dignify this mess with any further substantive comments. And I have already dealt with the subject raised in the OP.[/b]
"Hostile trolling" is a hostile characterization, that doesn;'t take into account the rest of the drift. And once again I notice you fail to address the others point. You and others clearly implied that the reputedly NDP /progressive writers already here were no worse than the liberal one criticising Layton for supposedly letting Harper win (something thats been succesfully challenged many times here alrsady) and implied that voices other than NDP ones here were being supporessed, in really quite colourful terms. I repeatedly challnged Cueball and others to back his own assumptionsd up and all I got was more of his usual accusations and sidestepping. You take his side now and presume to pass judgement on who was offending who? Then show me the beef yourself or move on.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:29
#84
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Well, I don't really have a lot of direct experience of the election as it played out in the mainstream press -- I hardly read anything about it. Mostly I experienced it in relationship to this web site. It seemed to me that the NDP rank and file were not above some pretty vicious attacks.[/b]
C'mon Cueball. I've got a much higher opinion of you (well, I did) than that. If you felt the NDP was vicious here at this web site, I should send you some links that would make the NDP here seem like cuddly kittens, not the real cats.
Cats are good at getting dogs to do the barking.
Obviously, you're far too well-informed to claim you only frequent this site. You even know how to find cool you-tube vids.
This mouse is going back to my corner for a bit.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:31
#85
In [url=http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/1992----02.htm]Noam Chomsky interviewed by various interviewers[/url] the first question asked of Chomsky relates to the primary function of the mass media in mobilizing public support for the special interests that dominate the government and the private sector. What are those interests?
Chomsky responded:
quote:
Well, if you want to understand the way any society works, ours or any other, the first place to look is who is in a position to make the decisions that determine the way the society functions. Societies differ, but in ours, the major decisions over what happens in the society -- decisions over investment and production and distribution and so on -- are in the hands of a relatively concentrated network of major corporations and conglomerates and investment firms. They are also the ones who staff the major executive positions in the government. They're the ones who own the media and they're the ones who have to be in a position to make the decisions. They have an overwhelmingly dominant role in the way life happens. You know, what's done in the society. Within the economic system, by law and in principle, they dominate. The control over resources and the need to satisfy their interests imposes very sharp constraints on the political system and on the ideological system.
So the media becomes the position of dominate society and way of life.
quote:
QUESTION: When we talk about manufacturing of consent, whose consent is being manufactured?CHOMSKY: To start with, there are two different groups, we can get into more detail, but at the first level of approximation, there's two targets for propaganda. One is what's sometimes called the political class. There's maybe twenty percent of the population which is relatively educated, more or less articulate, plays some kind of role in decision-making. They're supposed to sort of participate in social life -- either as managers, or cultural managers like teachers and writers and so on. They're supposed to vote, they're supposed to play some role in the way economic and political and cultural life goes on. Now their consent is crucial. So that's one group that has to be deeply indoctrinated. Then there's maybe eighty percent of the population whose main function is to follow orders and not think, and not to pay attention to anything -- and they're the ones who usually pay the costs.
I believe that Klein operates on both these levels. Target group 1 is the "the political class." She definitely was targeting her writings to those who follow "progressive politics" through her NOW readership, as well as getting herself syndicated, so to speak, in other places, whether quotes/interviews in MSM, or at the Tyee or Georgia Straight, or a writer right here at rabble.
[b]So what is her main message of her articles that one detects?[/b]
Group 2. eighty percent of the population whose main function is to follow orders and not think, and not to pay attention to anything -- and they're the ones who usually pay the costs.
The strategic voting site was setup so people would not think but just follow the sites recommendation. People were told to just follow the site. I actually remember reading blogs where people [i]actually said that - unbelievable.[/i]
Having been an avid reader of CHOMSKY, I was struck by the parallels between Klein and her writings this past year, the mindless votefortheenvironment site, and how manufactured consent was just not about MSM, but that this trojan horse was just as applicable in supposed "progressive circles."
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:35
#86
Cueball
If you took that seriously, all I can say is that you would abandon the NDP forthwith. That is what it did for me. Because I see the NDP as being hopelessly in the pocket of the dominant class.
A whole string of provincial governments have taught me that, because the few truly sincere voices in those parties are routinely drowned out by the not so sincere voices who are more than happy to play footsie with the corporate machine.
[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:36
#87
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]Off course, out with ad hominem smear. I am with terrorists, (In league with the Zionist manipulators) [/b]
Did I call the Zionists here "terrorists", or is that just another of your creative interpretations? I do find it amazing how you accuse others of doing what your doing, while consistently refusing to answer the others really quite simple question. Here it is one last time then, is this new rabble addition really comparable to others writers you and Spector don't like here, politically wise. And does questioining that really amount to NDPers here saying noone else but NDPers should be allowed to post here? That seems to be bout the only substantial arguments here, though so far unsupported by anything by attempts to write me off as mere troublemaking. I am only raising a point that goes to the point first made, you are the ones who keep guessing at hidden motives and acting like victims throughout.
Mon, 2008-10-20 19:42
#88
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Your hostile trolling has made a complete mess of this thread, thanks to the lack of any moderator's intervention.[/b]
Well, I figured when I saw this thread start this morning that it would probably go this way. Haven't had time to watch it carefully today, as we're racing against time to get the new site ready and planning the relaunch event and all.
Anyhow, I don't have time to go back through 86 posts and see who started it. It probably doesn't matter. But I think it's long enough and off-topic enough that it can be closed.