How can progressive Jews counter the "Israel right or wrong" crowd?
Mon, 2008-10-27 09:23
#1
How can progressive Jews counter the "Israel right or wrong" crowd?
Mon, 2008-10-27 09:23
#2
A relative of mine received the following response from Prof. Stephen Scheinberg, formerly of Bnai Brith (it used to be a fairly progressive organization!) and currently of Peace Now, with regard to a perceived rightwing swing in the community:
quote:
There is a growing Tory constituency in the Jewish community. They appeal especially to the orthodox and to the Israel hard-liners (Likudniks) who overlap. We have traveled a long way from an era in which Jews might vote even Communist and CCF. Part of the reason is changing economic circumstances. However, I think that those on the right have been very successful in portraying friendship for Israel as uncritical acceptance of her every action. Harper, for example, supported the 2nd Lebanon War from beginning to end, even while all three Israeli leaders of that war have now resigned.
I fear that we will now enter the American pattern of politicians proclaiming their complete fealty to Israel, in a bid for Jewish votes and money. Too bad.
Steve S.
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: St. Paul's Progressive ]
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: St. Paul's Progressive ]
Mon, 2008-10-27 09:30
#3
I don't know what kind of Jews Prof. Scheinberg hangs out with, but his pessimism is misplaced. Anyway, even in the U.S., Jews don't vote for the most fanatical "friends of Israel", nor do most of them consider Israel to be a [i]sine qua non[/i] of their Judaism. Jews have a long history of enlightenment and adherence to progressive causes. This little outpost of colonialism and ethnocentrism in the Middle East just hasn't got what it takes to override that history.
Anyway, I never heard of Stuart Scheinberg. Is he into [url=http://www.amhglenwood.com/pwrx/pages/page.jsp?P_SITE_ID=3&P_PAGE_ID=151...?
quote:
Stuart Scheinberg grew up on a horse farm in upstate New York. He had dreams of becoming a veterinarian since childhood. Growing up on a family farm was a great experience in which his love of animals was cultivated through raising and breeding horses, cattle, rabbits, and even chickens.
Mon, 2008-10-27 10:36
#4
I stand corrected, unionist - STEPHEN Scheinberg is a retired Concordia prof. and used to be part of Bnai Brith before it became the fiefdom of the ultrarightwing Frank Dimant. He documented this shift in Canadian Dimension:
[url=http://canadiandimension.com/articles/2008/08/05/1969/]http://canadiandi...
I think I was confusing him with Stuart Schoenfeld,
who is a big figure in the organized downtown Toronto Jewish community.
Scheinberg also wrote this piece about who the true "friends" of Israel are:
[url=http://www.tolerance.ca/Article.aspx?ID=14642&L=en&sc=1]http://www.toler...
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: St. Paul's Progressive ]
Mon, 2008-10-27 10:47
#5
Unionist, I think you're right about warning people against stereotyping Jews as single-issue voters.
But the thing is, because "conventional wisdom" in US politics paints Jews this way, the Democrats and the Republicans try to outdo each other proclaiming themselves "the most fanatical friends of Israel". So there really isn't any choice OTHER than voting for "the most fanatical friends of Israel" in the US.
Mon, 2008-10-27 10:53
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Unionist, I think you're right about warning people against stereotyping Jews as single-issue voters.But the thing is, because "conventional wisdom" in US politics paints Jews this way, the Democrats and the Republicans try to outdo each other proclaiming themselves "the most fanatical friends of Israel". So there really isn't any choice OTHER than voting for "the most fanatical friends of Israel" in the US.[/b]
Michelle, you are quite mistaken if you think the reason Democrats and Republicans outdo each other in support of Israel is to win Jewish votes. They do it because Israel serves their oil and geopolitical and other needs in the Middle East. [url=http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0439419520070906]Studie... show that U.S. Jews don't care that much any more:
quote:
Young U.S. non-Orthodox Jews are becoming increasingly lukewarm if not alienated in their support for Israel in a trend that is not likely to be reversed, according to a study released on Thursday. ...The study found only 48 percent of U.S. Jews under age 35 believe that Israel's destruction would be a personal tragedy for them, compared to 77 percent of those 65 and older.
In addition, only 54 percent of those under the age of 35 are "comfortable with the idea of a Jewish State" as opposed to 81 percent of those 65 and older. ...
There are perhaps 6 million Jews in the United States, only about a third of them affiliated with a congregation. Of those who do attend a synagogue, perhaps 40 percent are classified as liberal Reform, 32 percent middle-ground Conservative and 8 percent Orthodox, according to surveys.
Mon, 2008-10-27 11:02
#7
I'm not suggesting they're one-issue voters Michelle. I don't know where you get that idea. All I said is that the Tories made some inroads because Harper is perceived to be the only friend of Israel by a segment of the community - even though he backed Israel in a war that was disastrous for Israel.
Let me say again: most Canadian Jews are not Conservatives and are fundamentally small-"l" liberals. But less than they used to be.
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: St. Paul's Progressive ]
Mon, 2008-10-27 11:14
#8
I didn't think you said that. I was just saying that unionist is right to make that distinction and to warn against the (unfortunately all too common) idea that Jewish Americans, and Canadians for that matter, only care about Israel in the voting booth.
Unionist, I think you're right about the motivation of the right when it comes to Israel. But I think they cover that with faux concern about Israel, and try to make like that's the reason they care so much.
As you say, it's pretty hilarious to watch a bunch of mostly armageddon-end-times-believing fundamenatalists pretend to give the slightest damn about Jewish Americans. Especially considering that in their version of events, what happens is that those Jews who don't convert to Christianity during the end times end up getting thrown into the Lake of Fire or whatever.
Mon, 2008-10-27 11:41
#9
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
This little outpost of colonialism and ethnocentrism in the Middle East
I can assure you this sort of view is a fringe element - anti-Zionism is no more productive than "Israel is always right."
Mon, 2008-10-27 11:45
#10
quote:
Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]I can assure you this sort of view is a fringe element - anti-Zionism is no more productive than "Israel is always right."[/b]
I wasn't looking to be productive. I was more interested in being on the side of justice and humanity.
P.S. Michelle, that "Lake of Fire" sounds pretty attractive with winter coming. Do they do time-share?
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]
Mon, 2008-10-27 11:54
#11
I think it's important to be "productive" in your political tactics...look at how much Barak's generous offer of 95% of what the Palestinians was blasted by both pro-Palestinians and rightwing Likudniks...this set back the peace process for decades.
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: St. Paul's Progressive ]
Mon, 2008-10-27 12:02
#12
quote:
Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]I think it's important to be "productive" in your political tactics...look at how much Barak's generous offer of 95% of what the Palestinians was blasted by both pro-Palestinians and rightwing Likudniks...this set back the peace process for decades.[/b]
The "95%" didn't include the right of return or a just solution on Jerusalem, if memory serves.
I'm not really interested in getting into that debate right now. I oppose the Occupation (including Golan and Jerusalem), I support the right of return, I oppose Zionism, I oppose the idea of a "Jewish state" - although I do support Israel's right to territorial integrity within internationally recognized borders. And I am not interested in dictating to the people of the region whether they should have a one-, two-, or n-state "solution".
Mon, 2008-10-27 12:38
#13
quote:
Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]...look at how much Barak's generous offer of 95% of what the Palestinians was blasted by both pro-Palestinians and rightwing Likudniks...[/b]
Yes, Barak's Old-Time Generous Malting-Frosted Offer! Now with 20% more illegal settlements! Act now! With an offer this generous you can't afford to wait.
quote:
Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]this set back the peace process for decades[/b]
It set back the what now?
Mon, 2008-10-27 12:46
#14
In response to the thread title, Jews can counter this crowd by first educating themselves about real life in today's Palestine, about history as it actually unfolded, and by learning to envision what a fair "offer" would look like, forget generous.
Then they can go out and help others to make the same transformation.
Mon, 2008-10-27 12:55
#15
Hear, hear.
Mon, 2008-10-27 13:01
#16
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I didn't think you said that. I was just saying that unionist is right to make that distinction and to warn against the (unfortunately all too common) idea that Jewish Americans, and Canadians for that matter, only care about Israel in the voting booth.Unionist, I think you're right about the motivation of the right when it comes to Israel. But I think they cover that with faux concern about Israel, and try to make like that's the reason they care so much.
As you say, it's pretty hilarious to watch a bunch of mostly armageddon-end-times-believing fundamenatalists pretend to give the slightest damn about Jewish Americans. Especially considering that in their version of events, what happens is that those Jews who don't convert to Christianity during the end times end up getting thrown into the Lake of Fire or whatever.[/b]
Exactly. In the U.S, (less so here) "Israel right or wrong" is not only about the "Jewish" vote, it's also about the Fundamentalist Christian vote (HUGE).....and the "Muslims are terrorists" scapegoating vote (also huge: and this is where Canadian Politicians see vote getting IMV).
quote:
Fundamentalist Christian support for the Jewish people is not new, especially among an evangelical subset known as Christian Zionists, who make up an estimated 3 million of America's 98 million evangelicals. Religious experts believe that some 30 million Christians have some Zionist beliefs.
[url=http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/07/10/MN17001.D... the SF chronicle 2002...still a good read[/url]
That being said I agree COMPLETELY with the poset that there are very progressive (social democratic) traditions in Judaism. In fact, I would argue the progressive side of Judaism has frankly been buried by the real politick of elections and the middle east.
[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: Mojoroad1 ]
Tue, 2008-10-28 12:12
#17
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Michelle, you are quite mistaken if you think the reason Democrats and Republicans outdo each other in support of Israel is to win Jewish votes. They do it because Israel serves their oil and geopolitical and other needs in the Middle East. Studies show that U.S. Jews don't care that much any more:
Maybe so, but the organized Jewish community - the community leaders, rabbis, intelligentsia, etc. - are overwhelmingly Zionist. AIPAC is run by a rightwing Likudnik billionaire and it is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington. Even if most Jews became anti-Zionist tomorrow, AIPAC wouldn't go away.
Tue, 2008-10-28 12:23
#18
From Scheinberg:
quote:
All of us have friends who fill our ears with praise and are uncritical of our every action: they are mere sycophants. And then we have really good friends who are unafraid to criticize us when we are heading off the track, acting against our best long term interests. Thus, those so-called friends of Israel who support the expansion of settlements, maintaining illegal outposts, not negotiating with enemies, and urge alliances with the Christian right are like the “friend” who will “not only let you drive home drunk but offer you their Porsche and a shot of tequila for the road.”
Bang on.
quote:
Jewish organizational elites are not representative of their community.
They certainly don't represent me. Where do I vote to get rid of Bernie Farber? Or is it the Canadian Jewish Corporation (isn't Bernie the "CEO") now?