Sexism in the US elections
Tue, 2008-11-04 00:50
#1
Sexism in the US elections
Tue, 2008-11-04 00:50
#2
I thought a thread was started on this recently, but I can't find it...
Anyhow, [url=http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/03/cindy-mccain-says-media-... out some of the comments after this article[/url] for some good examples of blatant misogyny in the US election.
I can't believe the number of self-described Obama supporters who are making purely sexist attacks on Cindy McCain. She's a "homewrecker" is she? Wow, love how they stick it all on her - last I heard, she wasn't married when she and McCain started their affair. It's not like SHE broke any vows. Incredible.
There's other nasty stuff there too. I guess it goes to show that Republicans haven't cornered the market on sexist crap.
Tue, 2008-11-04 10:22
#3
Polly B
Ya there's a lot of sexist bullshit in there, barbie comments and cheap shots about aging and looks and wardrobe.
Not sure about the homewrecker part though. Cindy knew he was married when she took up with him, and she knew that Mrs. McCain the first was an invalid. It didn't send her screaming in the opposite direction and it should have. While McCain is the way bigger asshole, that doesn't make Cindy not an asshole in that regard.
Tue, 2008-11-04 10:35
#4
quote:
Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:
[b]Ya there's a lot of sexist bullshit in there, barbie comments and cheap shots about aging and looks and wardrobe.Not sure about the homewrecker part though. Cindy knew he was married when she took up with him, and she knew that Mrs. McCain the first was an invalid. It didn't send her screaming in the opposite direction and it should have. While McCain is the way bigger asshole, that doesn't make Cindy not an asshole in that regard.[/b]
Yeah, I tend to agree. Moreover, if someone effectively models herself on Barbie, I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out in a critical way. I didn't read through all the comments, though, and I'm sure there were some bad ones....
Tue, 2008-11-04 10:54
#5
quote:
This woman doesn't need a White House, she needs an SUV. She had her fling with John while he was still married and now she wants to be the First Lady? I don't think so, the first tramp you mean.
quote:
Oh I know this is snarky but when I look at her I see Miss Cindy as an older woman who will end up plucking thick black hairs from that chin in a few years. She'll still be getting botoxed, hair still bleached out, and her neck and arms will give away her true age.
quote:
Get her off the air. I can't stand this cheating fake barbie. Didn't she wear $300k worth of cloths.
quote:
Says the mistress turned wife(y), drug abuser and $300k per outfit wearing woman.
quote:
Is she on drugs again? CNN please check.
quote:
Did anyone else besides me get sick to their stomach when McCain announced her as "First Lady." She is NO lady. A woman who knowingly had a relationship with a married man and father of three...I hope I never have to see this drug addicted, house wrecker religious(less) woman again. Please do us all a favor and go shopping!
quote:
Well, all I have to say is karma was a long time coming. A very long time. Cindy Lou snuck around with someone else's husband in Hawaii. Watched him leave 3 kids and an ailing wife, and now payback is a b………Hawaii, the place where she met John-Married-Man-McCain, is the very same place where Barack was born. The place where Cindy and John had an affair while he was MARRIED, is the very same place Barack was conceived. Karma, karma, karma….HELLO?
Sorry Cindy Lou, but you made that bed. It started and ENDED in Hawaii.
Obama/Biden 08
Two men who stayed with their wives.
quote:
Cindy, please go home and be quiet. Palin is a mad dog with lipstick that would not know the truth if it was poured on her. Kinda like you and your hubby.
quote:
Cindy and Sarah are a pair of lesbians. Ha ha ha ha ha
quote:
Cindy McCain has to be one of the least sympathetic candidate spouses in the history of campaigning. I wonder how much of a drag she is on the ticket.
quote:
Pack Barbie A up and send her back to Arizona and then pack Barbie B up and send her back to Alaska. The world will be a better place. Oh, and take grandpa with you.Obama/Biden 08
quote:
Cindy was good on SNL, but not ready for prime time. I will give her this though, she dresses better than Michelle. Did you see that outfit Michelle had on last night. I thought she was going to the gym. What's up with her clothes? Cindy has the money to spend on clothes, and it shows, but Michelle could do a little bit better.
Tue, 2008-11-04 10:59
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB][/QB]
Yes, those are horrible. I have a low opinion of the woman's values and mode of life but there's no excuse for stuff like this.
("Barbie A" and "Barbie B" isn't that far off, though.)
[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Tue, 2008-11-04 13:32
#7
remind
Wow, there is some nasty sexism going on alright, however I am not sure if labelling Palin and Mrs McCain as "barbies" is actually sexist, or indeed an astute observation that they are merely dressed up dolls being foisted upon the public to sell an image, as being more than what they are.
Granted in the case of Cindy McCain, she actually has some good deeds of her own behind her, and is much less an empty poseur than Palin is.
Tue, 2008-11-04 13:50
#8
Isn't there also "dressed-up doll" quality to Obama, as "great black hope" - not to mention G.I. John McCain? The difference being that when you're a man, this isn't held against you. (Ken didn't get 1% of the abuse that Barbie did.)
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:33
#9
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Isn't there also "dressed-up doll" quality to Obama, as "great black hope" - not to mention G.I. John McCain? The difference being that when you're a man, this isn't held against you. (Ken didn't get 1% of the abuse that Barbie did.)[/b]
I think that would depend on on who is doing the criticing. Obama's 'empty suit status', all image, no substance, fake, the false messiah was a main talking point of the entire Republican campaign and joke of republican supporters throughout the whole thing and likly will continue for some time. The McCain campaign even put ads out before the election ridiculing his 'all image, no substance, in the infamous "Celebrity Ad" after Berlin and the "Messiah ad" in the spring.
Same with McCain and his I'm a 'war hero' image and his POW status. Both have taken enormous amounts of criticism, jokes and ridicule by supporters of both camps. That sort of thing is all over comment boards. POW jokes are rampart.
I do think that these specific comments about Cindy are pretty bad and horrible. I have however read quite a few nasty things directed at McCain about this affair and him leaving his wife as well, some equally disgusting in the equilvant sort of sense. At least one or two 'affair' attacks are common in a comment section of a major article as a general 'look at this *blah blah* guys integrity, he left his crippled wife and kids blah blah"
I think an argument about the overall quantity of it could be made about these sort of image attacks but to suggest that both men haven't received any or just a miniscule ammount (1%) of 'dress up' image ridicule just wouldn't stand up in a closer look, especially in comment sections like the example of this article.
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:36
#10
[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:36
#11
I meant Mattel's Ken and Barbie. The doll analogy is weighted against women.
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:38
#12
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by RosaL:("Barbie A" and "Barbie B" isn't that far off, though.)
[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ][/QB]
'Barbie B', actually referred to herself as a barbie which makes it pretty difficult to cry foul when people just repeat what you have no problem calling yourself.
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:40
#13
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]I meant Mattel's Ken and Barbie. The doll analogy is weighted against women.[/b]
Oh okay, I just took the analogy too far sorry about that, ignore the part about the percentages then.
Tue, 2008-11-04 14:44
#14
remind
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:
[b]...I think an argument about the overall quantity of it could be made about these sort of image attacks but to suggest that both men haven't received any or just a miniscule ammount (1%) of 'dress up' image ridicule just wouldn't stand up in a closer look, especially in comment sections like the example of this article.[/b]
I have found this to be true as well, could it be then that when people are looking for something, they find it, and overlook what else is there, as they are biased in their search?
Tue, 2008-11-04 15:07
#15
quote:
Obama's 'empty suit status', all image, no substance, fake, the false messiah was a main talking point of the entire Republican campaign and joke of republican supporters throughout the whole thing...
For sure. But many progressives DO project on Obama as figurehead qualities that his record and speeches often do not support. Would all this liberal racism-is-behind-us slapping of backs happen if it were Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice who had come out ahead in a contest?
Tue, 2008-11-04 15:20
#16
remind
Martin what is with all your anti-liberal memes?
Tue, 2008-11-04 15:31
#17
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b] For sure. But many progressives DO project on Obama as figurehead qualities that his record and speeches often do not support. Would all this liberal racism-is-behind-us slapping of backs happen if it were Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice who had come out ahead in a contest?[/b]
Of course they do and many conservatives are most definitly projecting a figurehead on Palin that her record and speeches do not support. Many of her supporters are projecting not only a figurehead status but an actual messiah(annointed one) status as well.
Not sure what your point is in reference to criticism from the opposites camps supporters. Are you suggesting that if that is the sort of image that Obama projects and is embraced by his supporters that it's okay to ridicule it because perhaps there is some truth in the falseness of it?
[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]
Tue, 2008-11-04 15:38
#18
There are too many conflicting definitions of liberals, liberalism, neo-liberalism and libertarianism to venture into a serious discussion. But, in a nutshell, I am using the term in a very general manner ro refer to systems and people who - despite occasional lip service to that notion - deny in fact the existence of systemic, material, self-interested oppression, and advocate for gender/race neutral readings and individual solutions, such as anyone's right to say/publish/film whatever HE wants, entrusting the common good to the application of liberal principles, e.g. equality [i]de jure[/i].
Tue, 2008-11-04 15:44
#19
remind
Whatever that means Martin! I have far more issues with "conservative" regressive beliefs that are directly harming women and the world.
Wed, 2008-11-05 10:34
#20
To quote Tina Fey "bitch is the new black". I was appalled during the primaries to see "men" openly state that strictly based on gender bias, they would never vote for a female candidate for president and the media did little more than chuckle at these comments. In contrast, if anyone dared to admit they would not vote for an African American candidate for president, purely based on racial bias, the media would condemn this. Both biases are equally disgusting, yet only racial bias seems to be deemed worthy of condemnation. Pretty sad that sexism is still accepted despite the fact that women are the majority and are the most oppressed, under-represented and discriminated against people on the planet.
I'm very glad that McCain suffered a crushing defeat, a humiliation he deserved for selecting Palin as his running mate. Very clearly, part of his rationale for doing so was to court disenchanted female Hillary Clinton supporters. Quite obviously, he has a very low opinion of women if he could not see that despite the fact that they both have breasts and a vagina, there is a very noticeable and crucial difference - Hillary, who I don't like, is an intelligent woman and Palin is not.
I fear that amongst the Neanderthal population, McCain's choice of Palin may have hurt the chances of future female candidates. Bill Maher spoke of this before when he pointed out that male candidates do not have to answer for every lunatic or incompetent male whereas for females it is the opposite. This is personal to me because I go through this in my work as an engineer. I don't know how many times I have had an ignoramus say to me that he had worked with a female engineer before and she was useless - as if that had anything to do with me - so why should he treat me with respect. When I point out to these guys that we have all worked with useless male engineers, most of them have a hard time seeing the point. Men are judged individually and women are judged collectively.
I do find it ironic that many people put the majority of the blame on Cindy McCain for the affair between her and John McCain. However, this is typical of the bias against women, whereby it is always the woman's fault. I was pretty disgusted with Michelle Obama when she made similar comments blaming Hillary Clinton for Bill's inability to keep his fly zipped. That a smart, educated woman like Michelle Obama could have made these blatantly sexist comments is extremely disappointing and I have zero respect for her.
Wed, 2008-11-05 11:46
#21
Seriously? Michelle Obama said it was Hillary's fault that Bill couldn't keep his fly zipped?
I think I'd like to see some proof of that one. Got a link or anything? I've never heard that before.
Wed, 2008-11-05 11:47
#22
P.S. But where are my manners?? Welcome, Kara! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-11-05 15:02
#23
Yeah! Great to have you on board! [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2008-11-05 15:48
#24
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Seriously? Michelle Obama said it was Hillary's fault that Bill couldn't keep his fly zipped?I think I'd like to see some proof of that one. Got a link or anything? I've never heard that before.[/b]
Apparently some are taking this comment below of Michelle Obama's to be a slap against Hillary, and it was started by Matt Drudge in the Drudge report.
quote:
“If you can’t run your own house, you certainly can’t run the White House”
[url=http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2008/05/michelle_obama.html]http:/...
Wed, 2008-11-05 16:20
#25
I watched that whole speech on the Obama campaign web site. I'm pretty sure that phrase was taken out of context, and that it didn't have anything to do with Clinton. I remember being pretty eagle-eyed during the primaries for sexism against Clinton, and I think I would have twigged to that immediately if it had been in that context. I remember watching the full video of that speech, because I remembered her hair up and in a red dress and white pearls - not sure why I remember that, probably because she doesn't usually wear her hair up. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
I think she was just talking about role modeling along the same lines as her husband's Father's Day homily, talking about the importance of family and the joint effort between the government, whose responsibility is to help everyone, especially those falling behind, have enough resources they need to live with dignity, and the family, whose responsibility it is to instill good values in children, with parents as good role models and teachers for their kids.
It was a recurring theme in many of his and her speeches (one night I spent a few hours watching all the videos on the Obama web site).
I could be wrong on this one, however, and maybe it was a "dog whistle" thing where she was trying to make people think about Clinton without coming right out and saying it. But if it was, then it was a dumb move, because if anything, the Clinton family didn't break up or go into disarray over it - they pulled together and weathered the storm, and at least publicly, they definitely "have it together".
[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wed, 2008-11-05 16:35
#26
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB]I watched that whole speech on the Obama campaign web site. I'm pretty sure that phrase was taken out of context, and that it didn't have anything to do with Clinton. I remember being pretty eagle-eyed during the primaries for sexism against Clinton, and I think I would have twigged to that immediately if it had been in that context.
I vaguely remember this 'controversy' and imo the sexism contained within it was the attempt to manufacture a fight between the two women by taking quotes from Michelle Obama and Clinton and quoting them out of context on a number of occasions. This did come originally from Drudge and was his interpretation that people just flew with until it became the 'truth' as it moved further from the source.
I remember reading things about the speculation about the Hillary and Michelle 'cat-fight' that was happening behind the scenes.
The actual context of her quotes are written in the comments of Reminds link. I read it and can see how it could be interpreted this way but I can also see how it is more generalized thought about connections between running a household and the White House that applies to Obama as much as it may Clinton.
Wed, 2008-11-05 17:10
#27
remind
Not sure where to put this, and this might as well be where I put it. But I just listened to Gloria Steinhem speak on Oprah, and I seriously can't stop crying.
Her words:
"I feel like I got my future back, I was in my 30's when it all came tumbling down."
She went to say when Martin Luther King Jr, Bobby Kennedy, and Malcolm X were killed, that our future of equality, cooperation and mutal understanding were killed along with them and that now that promising future is again before us. She noted that they were reconcillers, not dividers and that in fact the peoples of the world have been divided since their murders, and that now the world has hope again for reconcilliation and cooperation.
Moreover, she stated that it matters not that there are 2 men who will be leading the USA, as their words and message of father's involvement in the lives and caring for their children in a positive equal way, and their focus on what being a good man really is and means, more than makes up for the abscence of a woman leader, an that they are the role models and messangers of change for men and for women's equality rights.
Of course, I am paraphrasing in the last instances, and what she said was much more powerful than what I have recounted. As she was able to articulate just what is so poignant about this Obama win, and how it transcends the historical race barrier being broken.
Perhaps we may just have our future back, though it is hard to set aside cynicism and mistrust.
[url=http://www.oprah.com/tows]http://www.oprah.com/tows[/url]
Wed, 2008-11-05 17:59
#28
ElizaQ
Remind, I cried too. I don't usually watch Oprah but made a point of watching it today because I just wanted to see her in her words, 'unleashed'. It was quite a show.
I got weepy several times starting with Oprah talking about how she didn't even know that guy that she was leaning on in the crowd and thanking him and it went from there with other people she talked to.
Steinhems comments were so unexpected and they just floored me. I agree on the difficultly on leaving the cynicism and mistrust but I think that she articulated why this election is so meaningful for so many different people right now. It's about a reenvigoring or energizing of a very basic emotions 'hope and possibility'. That's not such a bad thing considering the history that's let up to this. It can be a very powerful motivator with all cynicism put aside.
Time will put a damper on it as reality clashes with expectations, it always does with these things but in my own life and in my own activist work I have seen the power that these basic emotions can have in motivating people to forge on and work at whatever it is that they are trying to do.
I have no idea really what is going to happen but I won't underestimate the power that these things have.
Wed, 2008-11-05 18:23
#29
remind
Ya, I have not watched Oprah since 2003, but made a point today, as I wanted to see her take on it all. And I was surprised to see Steinhem, and Noonan too actually.
Steinhem's words floored me too, as I did not actually realize, or rather could not find the words to express what happened in 1968. But now I realize that is what happened.
"our future" was murdered too.
Just thinking about what was said on the show by her commentators makes me all weepy again.
Wed, 2008-11-05 18:34
#30
What else could Michelle Obama have been referring to?
Wed, 2008-11-05 20:39
#31
I remember a number of observers making the point, when Hillary Clinton was the female being trounced, that Obama trumped her on so-called feminine values.
Today, on Oprah, reminds tells us that Steinem "stated that it matters not that there are 2 men who will be leading the USA, as their words and message of father's involvement in the lives and caring for their children in a positive equal way, and their focus on what being a good man really is and means, more than makes up for the absence of a woman leader."
I find this unsettling for a number of reasons. Is the best woman for the job a man? Is the best U.S. women can hope for is a good man, one more father image, men as moral icons?
[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:00
#32
ceti
Where are these comments from?
And your guilt by association for all Obama supporters is very Rovian. To link a bunch of random anonymous comments to the entire campaign is also ridiculous.
Far worse things are said every day in comment boards everywhere on the internet. And these usually by teenagers in basements. No howls of protest there.
And I think Palin got the worse for wear, but her actions and her very public projection of her family life into the campaign invited this sort of thing. Identity politics really cuts every which way.
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:06
#33
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]I remember a number of observers making the point, when Hillary Clinton was the female being trounced, that Obama trumped her on so-called feminine values.
Today, on Oprah, reminds tells us that Steinem "stated that it matters not that there are 2 men who will be leading the USA, as their words and message of father's involvement in the lives and caring for their children in a positive equal way, and their focus on what being a good man really is and means, more than makes up for the absence of a woman leader."
I find this unsettling for a number of reasons. Is the best woman for the job a man? Is the best U.S. women can hope for is a good man, one more father image, men as moral icons?[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ][/b]
No that's not what she was saying at all there's more to the context of that statement. They came within reference to the article she wrote after Palin was announced and some of the controversy of her being accused of not siding with a woman, because she was a woman so it wasn't a statement that had to do with women leaders in general but to the specifics of this actual election. I'm going by memory here because I can't find a transcript yet.
I think it's probably best that if there is a indepth debate like this about her comments that they be taken in it's entire context as they are basically only reminds and I's paraphrasing.
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:15
#34
I agree. But it's a real issue.
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:18
#35
remind
quote:
I think it's probably best that if there is a indepth debate like this about her comments that they be taken in it's entire context as they are basically only reminds and I's paraphrasing.
Exactly, ElizaQ, and I believe you can watch the show at Oprah's website that I linked to above. And Martin would do well to watch it before he makes judgement calls on what he did not view and hear.
** there is much more that I would say here about a man, no matter how "feminist" his credentials are, who keeps insisting women/feminists don't know what the fuck was being said/meant, or not! But I won't.
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:21
#36
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]I agree. But it's a real issue.[/b]
How is it an issue if it's not what she was said or meant? That makes no sense.
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:34
#37
It seems to me that anyone can make up her or his mind as to whether remind's paraphrase of Steinem's words and my questions point to a significant issue.
For the record - from [url=http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/20081105_tows_election/9]Oprah's website[/url], summarizing that part of her program:
quote:
The election of President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Joe Biden was a big victory for women, Gloria says. "To have two men in the national leadership … who actually are the first two in my lifetime to talk about male responsibility for children through policy and also personally, that is of huge, huge importance to women."
She also credits Hillary Clinton for "being a real soldier for Barack Obama".
Wed, 2008-11-05 21:54
#38
ElizaQ
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]It seems to me that anyone can make up her or his mind as to whether remind's paraphrase of Steinem's words and my questions point to a significant issue.
For the record - from [url=http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/20081105_tows_election/9]Oprah's website[/url], summarizing that part of her program:She also credits Hillary Clinton for "being a real soldier for Barack Obama".[/b]
And yet that snippet is still not in context of the entire conversation and does not jive with your unsettling conclusion that the in that statement she was suggesting that somehow that the 'best woman for the job is a man' or leading to some sort of feeling that 'this was the best women could hope for.'
It's not even close.
What she was saying was in reference to two SPECIFIC men, not men as leaders in general, and frankly I agree that if what she says about them specifically is actually true then that is a good thing for women and men as well.
Now in taking your questions as an actual issue separate from her comments the answers are easy.
No and no.
Tue, 2008-11-18 17:02
#39
Here is a good example of wishful thinking (from remind) that is sexist: "women can decide what they want to do, just as any male can decide."
Wed, 2008-11-19 11:19
#40
Radio Hosts Prove Media Cavemen Are Alive, Well
by Sheila Gibbons
"Women's media treatment has moved ahead on many fronts, but a new
Media Matters report finds right-wing radio hosts stuck in a time warp.
Sheila Gibbons also flags the scarcity of Huffington Post female
bloggers found in a FAIR study. (...)
(...) But that's kid stuff compared with what Media Matters for America
found. In an analysis released Nov. 13, the media watchdog group
confirmed that right-wing talk show hosts are especially vicious toward
women.
Chris Baker, host of a morning drive show on Minneapolis' KTLK-FM,
called Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin a "smoking-hot
chick" who "shoulda had a little cleavage going" when she gave her
acceptance speech at the convention.
Discussing John McCain's acceptance speech, Baker called the Code
Pink protesters who briefly interrupted the address "another bunch that
ought to have all their tubes tied. All right? I can't stand these Code
Pink broads."
Lee Rodgers, whose morning drive-time talk program airs on San
Francisco's KSFO-AM, said, "You look at many--perhaps most--of the
women who are professed leaders of the feminist movement in this
country and they're a bunch of hags . . . They couldn't get laid in a
men's prison, let's be honest about it." He also ascribed Democrats'
appeal to women this way: "A lot of women in this country who get
knocked up and they don't have a husband. In effect, the government
becomes Daddy in terms of paying the bills . . . that accounts for a
large part of that vote."
Cincinnati-based talk show host Bill Cunningham made almost the identical remark on his show less than two weeks later. (...)"
Wed, 2008-11-19 12:23
#41
remind
Cincinnati-based talk show host Bill Cunningham made almost the identical remark on his show less than two weeks later.
Are they are getting talking points, or they are like ever other MSM, just copy catting one anothers terminology?
And what is up at the HP, one would think that they of all people would have gender equity in their org.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
Wed, 2008-11-19 14:02
#42
What is the HP?