Let's end two-tier education.

37 posts / 0 new

Sat, 2008-11-22 20:20

cco

It came up, sort of, in one of the threads about Catholic school funding in Ontario, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own. It seems to be a more-or-less accepted principle that we should have a ban on private delivery of health care services covered by the public system, so the richest people can't have a parallel system, poaching the best doctors from the rest of us, unless those doctors are willing to give up access to the public system altogether. It seems to me this principle holds even truer for education.

Where I grew up, in Tennessee, the public school system was mainly for those who couldn't afford to send their children to private school -- overwhelmingly poor and/or minority students (and those students who got expelled from their private school after being caught smoking weed in the bathroom). Teacher pay was and is abysmal, the school system was subject to a federal consent decree due to effective segregation, and the school I attended is likely soon to be shut down altogether under No Child Left Behind, leaving black students to be bussed across town or drop out of school altogether. In fact, the city of Knoxville shut down its school system altogether, leaving the encompassing county to pick it up, because the wealthier area residents largely had moved outside of the city limits to avoid paying city taxes, depriving the city of adequate funding for schools. On the teacher side, a teacher at Knox County public schools would likely need food stamps to feed two children. This state of affairs is allowed to persist because, as I said, the wealthy and even the middle class simply don't participate in the public school system.

I know that Canada's public schools are not in quite as dire a financial state as those of the Southern United States, but I also know they're far from without problems. It seems to me that if the wealthy knew their children attended public school, the pressure on the government to improve the quality of public education would be turned up quite a bit. A full-fledged ban on private schooling likely wouldn't fly in the United States for constitutional reasons (though I think it would still be worth giving it a shot), but in Canada, we have the benefit of Section 33.

(For the record, I think we should ban homeschooling, as well.)

Thoughts?

Sat, 2008-11-22 23:33

Fidel

I think economist Dean Baker describes the situation in the U.S. well in chapter one, "Doctors and dishwashers" http://www.conservativenannystate.org At the PSE level, access to higher ed has already become two tiered with our students paying highest in the world interest rates on student loans. There are two price tags for higher ed in Canada, the cheapest possible one for the sons and daughters of people with money, and a far more costly one for those from poorer families. We already have physicians brought up in well off families who cant relate to their poorer Canadian patients on different levels.

Sun, 2008-11-23 00:49

genstrike

Yes, I completely agree that we should eliminate this two-tier crap where kids whose parents can afford to send them to private school, or even live in an area with higher property values and higher property taxes have the benefit of "better" education.

Also, we should completely eliminate user fees for post-secondary education.

Mon, 2008-11-24 22:49

George Victor

cco:

"It came up, sort of, in one of the threads about Catholic school funding in Ontario, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own. It seems to be a more-or-less accepted principle that we should have a ban on private delivery of health care services covered by the public system, so the richest people can't have a parallel system, poaching the best doctors from the rest of us, unless those doctors are willing to give up access to the public system altogether. It seems to me this principle holds even truer for education. "

Wish I'd seen this earlier, cco. You are absolutely correct - we should be fighting a class battle here, not cleaning up the residual of past religious distinction.

I'm battling the flu bug at the moment, but I have graduated to being able to spend 10 minutes at the keyboard. Hope we can continue this theme.

A poster from Virginia had challenged my idea of abolishing private schools...the idea apparently blew his mind. But I suspect we might not see him again soon to continue this discussiion. The vitreole from a couple of babblers got positively bitter on the subject of race, in another venue.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:40

jfb

Mon, 2008-11-24 23:40

Fidel

The real threat to public education in Canada

Over 450 private career colleges in Ontario

How The GATS Threatens Post-Secondary Education (pdf)

It's not Catholic schools, it's the WTO, big business, and their hirelings in government. Waging war on Catholics is a diversion from their brain-dead neoliberal ideology which they cant afford politically to trot out into the light of day as per democratic process

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:41

jfb

Mon, 2008-11-24 23:53

George Victor

Under Ontario Private Schools:Who Chooses Them and Why:

Private school attendance in Ontario has grown over recent decades from 1.9 percent of the student population in 1960 to 5.6 percent in 2006. ...
www.fraserinstitute.org/researchandpublications/publications/3207.aspx -

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And the kids are sent to these schools to benefit from a learning atmosphere which prepares them for post-secondary schooling. They do NOT suffered, academically, because of poorly paid teachers.

Check out the reasons that the well-to-do parent pays more to send Richard and Jane to these schools. It's a Fraser Institute study (gag) but they are not messing with numbers and the intent of parents in selecting private schools. For the academically-oriented schools:

"Academically-defined

schools typically emphasize academic success, character

development, development of self-confidence, and

self-directed learning. All Heads of schools spoke to

the sense of community within the school, stressing opportunities

available for parents to belong to a group of

like-minded peers. "

------------------------------------

This is the language of class entitlement, of course.

Tue, 2008-11-25 00:07

George Victor

Perhaps the numbers will retreat from some 6 per cent of the province's students as tough economic times hit the investor crowd (who depend heavily on investments to fund the little tykes schooling).

A niece's daughter, just graduated with a B Ed. and no prospect of a job, looked up au pere possibilities in Switzerland, and now looks after a couple of kids in Zurich outside of school hours. They are studying three languages and advanced maths in a private school intended to produce European leaders.

But my niece's daughter was chosen for her impeccable sense of right and wrong, a fairness toward others that is expected to be practised in this very wealthy household.

How can we ever replicate those conditions?

But I am pushing my luck staying up. Perhaps we can again continue to discuss improved education generally?

Tue, 2008-11-25 00:12

#10

Fidel

Dean Baker points out that if his country really did believe in and practice free trade, foreign trained doctors could save the U.S. health care system somewhere around $80 billion a year. I think the same would apply for foreign trained teachers and college professors. Reducing those higher end salaries could reduce the cost of PSE substantially by exposing those professions to global competition and "free market forces" They have cheap and affordable education in several emerging economies around the world while Canadian students are faced with unprecedented financial hurdles. At least one of Canada's professional associations has been labelled exclusive and even bigoted when it comes to recognizing internationally accredited physicians. I think foreign educated teachers and professors might have an easier time jumping hoops in Canada, but the overall costs for PSE are still way too high. I think as commodities based capitalism goes down the tubes, there will be enormous pressure placed on Canadian governments by big business lobby to open up public education to private funding and private delivery.

Tue, 2008-11-25 01:43

#11

remind

Interestingly, I had thought at one point of sending my daughter to private school, on the Island. Not so much for an "better" education, as I have my doubts that private schools are indeed better, but to get her away from inter high school battling, which at the time in Nanaimo was verging on getting really nasty. And indeed a youth died as a result of it. And some of her girl friends were attending one. However, I finally thought better of it, could not deal with the classist implications and moved away instead.

Just a few months ago, I ran into a couple of these girls, and found they were living on the street, and heavily involved in drugs and protestution and apparently have been for years, my daughter knew this and had not told me. Their addictions started in that private school and their parents threw them out. Neither have seen their parents in years. Another one, has been in and out of Eric Martin after several suicide attempts, she also has no contact with her parents. I have often wondered what the stats are for girls educated in a private co-ed system.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Tue, 2008-11-25 04:57

#12

thorin_bane

From an ontario perspective; I went to catholic gradeschool and public highschool. The seperate and public schoolboard have nearly identical cirriculam, also if you are not catholic you may attend(as long as your parents taxes state they support it) The school system is entirely funded by catholics(or like minded parents that send their kids there) and because catholics made up a very large percentage at one point (around 40-45% when I attended) it is publicschool that teaches the bibble a little more and other subjects a little less. That is about the only difference, along with a uniform in highschool.(We have no middle schools that I am aware of in Windsor).

I have always had an issue with tis. Even though I am an atheist, if 40% of people pulled their kids out of one school system and made their own school system it would be about the same ting as now. Only because of the large population base they had. Unlike a private school which doens't follow the same cirriculam as seperate or public schoolboards. The reason private school have successful people later i life is more about being connected closely to those who have means to succeed already. If everyone I knew was well off (100k + jobs)it is in all likelyhood they would be able to help me find a better job, either from the company they own(parents) or by recommending me. In addition they have smaller classroom sizes allowing them to have more time with a teacher to learn what they are struggling with. And when all else fails their parents can afford to hire a tutor. This is more about an aristocratic school , where you begin in a frat/sorority almost upon entering highschool. A large advantage. I have already seen the difference in local school that have a higher family income as to what provisions and opportunities are available to the kids.

______________________________________________________________________________________
"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
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Tue, 2008-11-25 09:06

#13

Star Spangled C...

George Victor wrote:

A poster from Virginia had challenged my idea of abolishing private schools...the idea apparently blew his mind. But I suspect we might not see him again soon to continue this discussiion. The vitreole from a couple of babblers got positively bitter on the subject of race, in another venue.

Think again, George. I can take it and ahve a rule to not take political disagreements overly personally.

I would be completely opposed to the idea of abolishing private educational options, though I will say that I do admire teh consistency of those who oppose public funding of religious schools at elast ALSO saying tha parents shouldn't be able to spend their own money on this sort of education. I think it borders on fascism, but I admire the consistency.

I went to private school most of my life in Toronto. I would not trade the education that i reecived for anything. We had wonderful teachers, great resources, excellent athletic, musical and artistic programs. It was terrififc. I think it absolutely sucks that not every child gets these options. We need a major overhaul of public education. It needs way more funding, it needs way more teachers and these teachers deserve more support and better pay to attract and retain the best people we can find. But the solution to the problem of some failing schools isn't to go and tear down schools that are already working, anymore than the solution to helping people in wheelchairs is to cut off the elgs of able-bodied people and say that at elast we've made it equal. One could actually argue that by going to private school, it helps people in the public schools because we still pay taxes to support public education but are taking one less spot, ensuring that per student funding is actually higher.

But my real objections go beyond this. I don't like the idea of one size fits all approach to education. Students are different with different strenghts, weaknesses, interests and goals. If needs aren't being met in the public schools, it's atrocious to deny them those options elsewhere. And it reeks to me of a totalitarian notion that kids need to be turned over to the state and the state should shape their values and culture. Some people explicitly reject that and would never allow their kids to be in that situation. For example, while I'm a pretty lousy Jew (as evidenced by the bacon and cheese bagel I'm consuming as I type this), I have certain cousins who are quite orthodox. They are far less financially secure than I am and they really struggle to pay tuition at their children's private school. But they do it because a public school is simply inconceivable to them. They would never want their kids in a school with non-kosher food or where they would ahve to miss vast amounts of school days to observe jewish holidays or where they may be exposed to images that go against their values. The consensus of many on the previous thread was "no way in hell government should pay for religious education. that's up to parens. if they want it, let them pay for it themselves." Ok. Fine. But now people are saying they shouldn't even be allowed to apy for it themselves?

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:41

#14

jfb

Tue, 2008-11-25 10:27

#15

Star Spangled C...

janfromthebruce wrote:

Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

That's a slogan, not a solution. And i don't even think it's accurate. Yes, our kids live and play together in our communities but many communities are not especially diverse - diversity being what some say is the goal of a full public educations system for everyone. people are already segregated by socio-economic status, race and religion depending on where they live. I got exposed to much more diversity in my private school than i would have by attending the public school in the neighbourhood in which I grew up.

Tue, 2008-11-25 11:36

#16

George Victor

Right. A tough hide, indeed. But your appeal to individual choice suggests that that is some norm of human behaviour, while, of course, it's quite specific to societies that promulgate inherited advantages. For instance, your argument that in private school you find "much more diversity":

"That's a slogan, not a solution. And i don't even think it's accurate. Yes, our kids live and play together in our communities but many communities are not especially diverse - diversity being what some say is the goal of a full public educations system for everyone. people are already segregated by socio-economic status, race and religion depending on where they live. I got exposed to much more diversity in my private school than i would have by attending the public school in the neighbourhood in which I grew up. "

Except that the assets, bank accounts, choice of vacation spots, even the food on the tables of those parents suggested economic advantage, eh?

And you call for better public schooling, whikle ignoring that what holds back public education (and having some exposure to that life) is the range of abilities found in any room.

Imagine, for instance, a room of grade 7s with reading abilities in english ranging from zero (two girls just in from Portugal), a quadraplegic boy in wheelchair whose neighbouring students turned pages for him, a boy, age 15, who was not expected to participate in academic work, another six children functioning at a grade 4-5 reading level, and the great suffering middle group, reading at their grade level, and expecting full attention from a teacher going quietly batty in frustration.

Instead of thirty-some children (whose hormones at that grade level are adding interesting behavioural challenges for all concerned) the home room should have served only as a roll-taking place, with lessons at grade level elsewhere. Perhaps a doubling of teaching staff.

AT an earlier grade, where many chikldren are just beginning to find comfort with reading and many are just newly arrived from another culture, input from another teacher (even with a class size of 20) is necessary for progress in learning.

----------------------------------------------------------

I suppose, with your ahistorical perspective on society and life, you have to resort to descriptive words like "fascism" (as others who piled on you a while back found your position "racist" - it makes for such fruitful exchanges :"

"I would be completely opposed to the idea of abolishing private educational options, though I will say that I do admire teh consistency of those who oppose public funding of religious schools at elast ALSO saying tha parents shouldn't be able to spend their own money on this sort of education. I think it borders on fascism, but I admire the consistency. "

Have you looked, recently, at the output of those religious schools (see Susan Jacoby and Al Gore, among others)? Talk about setting the groundwork for fascism within a theocratic state.

Try to imagine changes over time, an evolution of the human world that makes yesterda life hard to imagine for its brutality and introspective ignorance. Now look around you at other threads here, positing the approaching armageddon of climate change and the heroic efforts that will be needed to avoid that end for one's descendants. And try to imagine a world where people work not for advantage in a meritocracy, but for the common good. You know, the medical fraternity in Cuba as opposed to that of the U.S.?

Hard to imagine, eh?

Tue, 2008-11-25 13:44

#17

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

A related thread. It's not just the private schools that are two-tiered.

Tue, 2008-11-25 15:25

#18

thorin_bane

LTR that is what I was mentioning at the very end of my drawn out post. Depending on where you live means what kid of resources you have available. I know one school got a donation from a former resident that saw a news report about their library having 3/4 empty shelves.(inner city school) These kids can't go on field trips and generally have a 'rougher' school to attend. Now not every school is going to have some rich patron donate them 10,000(don't remember the amount) for a better library so what are the rest of the schools to do.

In my elementary school we had 1 set of rainbow bars(steel) and 2 sets of moneky bars(also steel). That's it. No jungle gym, no tires, not even a baseball diamond or soccor field. My buddies kids attend an elementary school that has a scoreboard because the parents donated money for that and a track. Nevermind the half dozen school trips they go on each year. Hell my highschool only got an electronic scoreboard 5 years ago.So it says a lot about funding and or private/public not being the only barrier anymore to quality of education.

Tue, 2008-11-25 19:56

#19

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

I'd just like to throw in that 'diversity as a goal' is a strawman argument. No one is trying to create diversity; indeed, some degree of conformity is necessary in any social/educational environment. The goal is simply the acceptance of as much diversity as possible; the recognition of the diversity existent within our society.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:41

#20

jfb

Wed, 2008-11-26 11:32

#21

laughingatu

George Victor says:

quote: Except that the assets, bank accounts, choice of vacation spots, even the food on the tables of those parents suggested economic advantage, eh? /endquote

Sounds like you have disdain for those that have money? Should those people who are financially well off not be allowed to spend the fruits of their labour?- because you know.. some people actually did become wealthy by working their asses off. Should those people not be allowed to provide what they consider to be "better things" for their family?

I personally live in the south end of Oshawa. Don't know if you heard, but our area leads Canada with a 96% increase of EI recipients. The school my son goes to has kids from middle class neighbourhoods as well as low income areas.

Sorry to stereotype... but low income areas = more bullies = rougher school.

If I could afford to send my child to a private school you're damn right I would do so.. reduce the exposure to what I consider undesirable influences.

To take that choice from parents away is like forcing everying one eat Kraft Dinner, when some of us can afford Sirloin Steak.

Wed, 2008-11-26 11:41

#22

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Welcome back, laughingatu. I was just talking about you.

Wed, 2008-11-26 12:33

#23

thorin_bane

BTW you are wrong big deal your rates are up. Windsor has the highest EI rate and we have seen it for over 2 years. This isn't even counting 2000 families that just up and left for out west. Add that to our EI and it is even worse. Another person that thinks by giving the rich more money will make his self proclaimed poor and shitty life better

Wed, 2008-11-26 13:25

#24

George Victor

Anyone choosing a "pen" name like laughingatu needs serious medical advice, not better schools.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:42

#25

jfb

Wed, 2008-11-26 14:47

#26

laughingatu

Nice response George... when you can't debate the argument... attack the writer. Very nice.

Thorin... I reread my post.. I was ambiguous... It is the INCREASE that is greatest in Oshawa... We have almost doubled in the number of recipients here.

Wed, 2008-11-26 15:58

#27

wwSwimming

I went to public schools up till college, then went to a junior university near Palo Alto.

I would say it's not so much public vs. private. The public schools I went to were pretty good. But not all public schools are.

But, I'm talking about the United States. There's trillions for bailing out wealthy investors, but talk about $10 billion for food & education for poor people & you get called a Socialist.

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Wed, 2008-11-26 17:37

#28

Lost in Bruce County

quote laughingatu "George Victor says: Except that the assets, bank accounts, choice of vacation spots, even the food on the tables of those parents suggested economic advantage, eh?

Sounds like you have disdain for those that have money?

I didn't get a sense of disdain from the George. He was merely listing the facts.

Should those people who are financially well off not be allowed to spend the fruits of their labour?- because you know.. some people actually did become wealthy by working their asses off. Should those people not be allowed to provide what they consider to be "better things" for their family?

The question is not what the rich or everyone else should spend their money on - rather the question is shouldn't all children be entitled to a quality education? For myself, the answer is yes. Therefore, there should not be discrepancies in the quality of education between wealthy kids and everyone else. That said, the best education should be made free for everyone in Canada - removing the need for wealthier people to spend their money on private schools - and removing the discrepancies between public schools in affluent neighborhoods and all other neighborhoods.

Sorry to stereotype... but low income areas = more bullies = rougher school.

Sorry doesn't negate the harm you just caused by promoting that negative and classist stereotype. If you know you have to apologize before making a comment, then you should probably know that the comment is not appropriate. That said I must fill out more of your equation: Liberal and Conservative governments = underfunding neighborhoods and education while giving a free ride to banks and big corporations = a rougher reality and fewer opportunities for most kids and wonderful life opportunities for a few.

To take that choice from parents away is like forcing everyone eat Kraft Dinner, when some of us can afford Sirloin Steak.

Privilege and oppression are two sides of the same coin. If you can afford Sirloin Steak it's because a farmer didn't get paid properly for his cattle, a truck driver was exposed to a wide variety of safety hazards and labour code violations, the staff at the supermarket only made minimum wage, have no benefits, and have likely been forced to work unpaid overtime. Eat your stake but know that it was on the backs of dozens of people. Now is that justice?

Thu, 2008-11-27 08:59

#29

laughingatu

So then your argument isn't that affluent people shouldn't be able to spend their money on their kids education.... it is that the public school board should have an environment equal to that of a private institution?

I don't disagree with that statement. My son goes to a publicly funded school in the Catholic system. Do I think the school could use more funding? Yes, I certainly do. I am only 36, and I have a son who has already gone thru the entire school system including high school. I have seen the photocopied pages of textbooks because their isn't enough books. I have seen an increase in school fees.

Does that mean that if I could afford to pay to send my child to a private school I shouldn't be able to? Wait - I know your answer..... You're all going to say I should have to send my child to that public school... so that he gets the same education that everyone gets. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. When someone in my neighbourhood pays to send their child to a private school, my area benefits because their property taxes still go to the publicly funded school boards!

Oh - and this may surprise you..... I do support a merging of the public and separate school boards. Like I said.. my son goes to a Catholic school.. not because we are Catholic (well.. my wife is and my youngest child is being raised as such until he is old enough to decide for himself), but because of the two schools in the area, his is the one my wife and I felt was the best for him.

And as for my "apology" - I meant "sorry if it offends you." I believe in my statement. And I believe there will always be "low income" areas. I define "low income" as high density rental apartments or row housing. If you want to tell me I caused harm by my statement - I don't care. I came from a blue collar working family. My parents struggled to make ends meet, yet we always went on a vacation once a year, even though my dad had to work two jobs to do it. I worked my butt off to get where I am today, and as a result I have a pretty good career, making ok money, and am well on my way to paying off my mortgage. My brother is a different story. I love him to death, but he has no ambition to work or grow up. He is content to stay on disability for an "injury" which doesn't really exist any longer. His girlfriend is content with a shitty job. When their car breaks down or they can't buy food... who do they turn to? Mom and dad. I don't know what is going to happen when mom and dad aren't around any longer. Yet I am doing harm when I call a spade a spade. He lives in high density housing.. with many other people just like him. I have met them. I have met their children. While some of them are working class people trying to get ahead, there are lots who let the streets raise their children. I will say it again, a little more clearly this time..... High density housing = higher percentage of neglected and abused kids = more bullies = rougher schools. Sorry if you don't like it!

Now.. .as for my oppression of the farmers and truck drivers..... what a bunch of hogwash. You really think that all business owners are out to screw their employees don't you? I don't know much about farmers - don't know many (actually... any). I do know a few truckers (self employed, own their own truck).... the ones I know make darn good money. Their margins have come down with the higher fuel prices, as have all of our costs, but they do ok. Supermarket staff.... gotta say... I don't know too many people who aspired to be a stockboy when they grew up. Guess I have to ask myself... how much is that job worth? I grew up in eastern Ontario, and there was a Loblaw's in our local mall. They made about $20/hour. I was appalled. What should be a transitional unskilled job that my 8 year old could do they were making really good money like that. Let's breed unambition (sic) shall we! I suppose you would have gas station attendants get paid the same? Or the person working at the Tim Hortons? Sorry (if it offends you) pal... but some jobs are just minimum wage jobs, and stepping stones to something bigger and better.

Thu, 2008-11-27 09:10

#30

George Victor

laughing(gas):"Sorry if it offends you, pal...but some jobs are just minimum wage jobs, and stepping stones to something bigger and better."

(end quote)

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And rather than creating a society that has reached the point where something more than subsistence is possible for all - like a "living wage"- we are to scramble in some social Darwinian world to survive.

You are a true primitive, laughing(gas). Dangerously dumb!

Thu, 2008-11-27 09:30

#31

laughingatu

I would rather a society that rewards the ambition to improve one's station in life rather than promote doing as little as needed to survive.

And I won't stoop to a level of name calling. I have evolved past that.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:42

#32

jfb

Fri, 2008-11-28 01:18

#33

KeyStone

While I strongly agree with ending homeschooling, private schools should be abolished for a number of reasons.

1) Many of these private schools are not for the wealthy, but rather simply serve to segregate a particular religion and teach religious values in the classroom. This is not the job of the schools, this is the job of the parents. Segregation is not good.

Look at France. They have Muslim schools. Their family is all Muslim. Everyone in their neighbourhood is all Muslim. Everyone in their school is all Muslim. Is it any wonder that there are lines drawn, that certain groups don't mix well with others and there is an us vs them mentality.

Is Catholic math different from secular math different from Muslim math different from Jewish math? No. Learn the other stuff at home.

Secondly, while I don't necessarily think that students get a better education at private schools, they do get better connections. All the rich kids go to the same schoo, which means twenty years later, they have all sorts of well-off connections - an unfair advantage.

As the late Molly Ivins once wrote, We don't need everyone to finish at the same time, we just want everyone to have the same starting line.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:43

#34

jfb

Fri, 2008-11-28 09:13

#35

Star Spangled C...

KeyStone wrote:

Look at France. They have Muslim schools. Their family is all Muslim. Everyone in their neighbourhood is all Muslim. Everyone in their school is all Muslim. Is it any wonder that there are lines drawn, that certain groups don't mix well with others and there is an us vs them mentality.

So let's say you got rid of Muslim schools. As you said, they're already living in almost exclusively Muslim neighbourhoods. The public school they attend would still be "segregated."

Fri, 2008-11-28 13:35

#36

The Bish

laughingatu wrote:

I would rather a society that rewards the ambition to improve one's station in life rather than promote doing as little as needed to survive.

So you must have serious problems with our current society then, in which people work their asses off every day and often still have trouble meeting their most basic financial obligations? The problem with the idea that society should reward hard work is that there is no society in which that is the case. No society which allows for massive build-up of wealth by people who just happen to control a key resource like oil, but leaves people working multiple jobs with barely enough (or not enough) to support themselves and their families, could possibly be considered fair. Socialists don't want to give handouts to people who are lazy, they want to give back to the worker what they have rightfully earned through their hard work.

Sat, 2008-11-29 08:19

#37

George Victor

SSC:

So let's say you got rid of Muslim schools. As you said, they're already living in almost exclusively Muslim neighbourhoods. The public school they attend would still be "segregated."

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But aside from your desperately sought hypothetical situations, the kind of courtroom challenge so common in the litigious society - in the real world the principle would mostly hold, eh?

By the way, get to read about those folks in Winchester, VA yet, SSC?Some real observations on the "real world" could be generated there. Really like to see what those folks thought about the possibility of real opportunity for the kids. Quality education. Wow.

Hell, the factory worker's kids might even aspire to medicine, like so many in Cuba. They certainly don't now, up in those hills.