right wing and lookism

43 posts / 0 new

Wed, 2008-11-26 12:09

thorin_bane

Dougs thread about broken-jaw-coulture got me thinking, what is it with the rightwing and lookism. A lot of rightwingers(on display) are what you would call attractive people. But those that seem to be are also the least intelligent in their group. For example, Maxime Bernier, Helena G, Ann Coulture, Marsden, Jaffer, Ambrose, and most recently Pallin. I can see how you can be duped by someone who is attractive. But do people ever listen to what comes out of their mouths? Here are people who talk about being just like you or me. Sadly this is false. Even statistics back up that if you are beautiful, the world will bend over backwords for you. Better job, better chance to mate(their term not mine), more opportunities in general.

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/beautiful-people-earn-12-more-... a source[/url]

"Good looks have what social scientists call the halo effect. Because
someone is attractive, we assign many other positive attributes to him
or her that have nothing to do with looks."

Because they are good looking, they have never had to develop a personality, intelligence or as many skills as those that aren't so 'hot' This also goes to social conscience. Which isn't to say leftwingers are all ugly, but it seams like we all had to struggle with something at one time that put us in the underdog camp to start with. Maybe you had a lisp or limp as a kid and got bullied, for others bad teeth. Wearing glasses, a disability etc. A lot of the people I know who are rightwingers and good looking state how "they have worked hard for their money, why should they give it to some freeloading wlefare case" But did they ever work as hard as the rest of us. Maybe in their little world yes. But from an outside perspective no.

You can readily see this in news. There are very very few ugly people that do the news esp in the US. Hollywood use to have great charter actors that because of being unattractive made them favourites of fans. No days they just make someone beautiful look ugly(Monster, charlize).

A friend of mine is 6'2 blond and blue eyes, he talks a lot but is a good worker. They think very highly of him and want to groom him for management(which I have noticed consist of mostly 6' + white males that are all decent looking) I know a great many people who are more qualified but are being passed over.

I have drift on my own post...sheesh. I am just interested in the whole rightwingers need to place their aspiration into someone visibly superior yet in many cases mentally inferior. The common 'man' isn't the person I want to represent me. I want someone who is smarter than me to make the right chose for all people. Elitism of brains is a lot more important to me than looks or social connections.

Any comment on the above(any of it) would be appreciated.

Wed, 2008-11-26 12:41

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I agree with you, thorin, that we need smart people representing us. Absolutely true. However, your post has some underlying assumptions.

First, it's that good looks means you aren't smart. Next, that good-looking people never have to work hard, that they deserve less. There's also a leaning toward good looking people being deceptive and more likely to be right wing. You're also discounting the role of charisma when it comes to the success of public figures, left or right.

As a good-looking lefty who is plenty smart and has worked extremely hard for everything I have, I find this offensive. Nobody has ever handed me anything I didn't earn, and there have been times, especially in my youth, that I was sorely underestimated because of the way I look.

We all have to deal with who we are inside and out and there are pros and cons to all of it.

Your friend being groomed for management may have made choices or shown an aptitude that his supervisors think would be valuable -- how can you know for sure that he's in a better position because of his looks? And isn't that terrifically insulting to him that you regard him that way?

Maybe you're the one who's a little too focused on the superficial.

Wed, 2008-11-26 14:23

remind

Timebandit wrote:
I agree with you, thorin, that we need smart people representing us.

I agree.

Quote:
First, it's that good looks means you aren't smart. Next, that good-looking people never have to work hard, that they deserve less.

As a good-looking lefty who is plenty smart and has worked extremely hard for everything I have, I find this offensive. Nobody has ever handed me anything I didn't earn, and there have been times, especially in my youth, that I was sorely underestimated because of the way I look.

I agree with this, as a fairly good looking tall blond with blue eyes, I was subjected to every dumb blonde stereotype going, and had to be more smart, and capable because of it. Plus of course being looked at as a sexual stereotype, as opposed to being a progressive lefty who was an activist. If I had a nickle for everytime I was dismissed as being a "dumb blonde", plus of course for being a woman, I could retire in a fairly comfortable manner. Moreover, my partner who is a great looking 6'7" guy, has had to deal with the "big dumb oaf basketball player" stereotype, and being dismissed intellectually because of it, along with racial prejudices impacting his choices in life careers. His looks and height did nothing for him essentially. Our daughter who is "short" comparatively speaking, and who is also blonde with the exotic features that can be the result of mixed racial genes, gets infantized, sexualized and dismissed intellectually too. This has impacted her life more than what I can say.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Wed, 2008-11-26 15:29

lagatta

That is true, but despite all the "legally blonde" and other negative stereotyping that can have an impact on good-looking people in their youth (I don't think it has such an impact past about 35 or 40, on the contrary), "less-attractive" people, and overweight people, as well as people with even slight handicaps pay a very heavy "unattractiveness" tax in terms of career and earning prospects, as many studies show.

I understand the original post idea, with a kind of social Darwinism spotlighting "good examples of the race" or whatever, though the left is capable of this too. The most glaring example in recent years is the stunning cad Tommy Sheridan of the Scottish Socialist Party.

But I confess that I'm pleased Martine Aubry bested Ségolène Royal. Not that Aubry is ugly by any means, but she looks more like an average middle-aged woman, a bit plump and not as fashionable as the glamourous Royal.

Thu, 2008-11-27 00:34

torontoprofessor

From the ages of 17 to 21, I worked at a day camp, where we had kids aged 4 to 10. I was dismayed, though not surprised, at just how much more attention and praise the good-looking kids got from the counsellors, even (indeed, especially) at the age of 4 or 5. I made a point of paying special attention to the less cute more homely kids, partly because it was heartbreaking to see them so routinely ignored (and almost never gushed over). I hate to confess that doing this took some effort: the path of least resistance would have been to gush over the cute ones like everyone else. This has nothing in particular to do with one half of the subject (the right wing) but plenty to do with lookism. I reckon that the way you're treated from 4 to 10 has a profound impact on your adult life.

Thu, 2008-11-27 02:28

thorin_bane

To remind, I can tell you first hand that I was fawned over as a child. I am not at all ugly, had lots of girlfriends till 10th grade and frankly I am brilliant even if my typing skills suck. But as I got older I did not continue to grow. Being a male of 5'4 is not something I would wish on my worst enemies. I get teased about it a dozen times a day, they are mostly 'for fun' but I am an adult damnit. If I teased you by calling you strech or hows the weather up there(and I wasn't so squat) daily you would take exception. However being short they only say I have a chip on my shoulder or small man syndrome. Which I do. Why because they continue to do it. You can check in any number of studies that being tall up to about 6'6 for men is a huge advantage, including financially. As I pointed out nearly ALL our managers are over 6' certainly there must be someone qualified enough that isn't tall. Being tall carrys a natural authority. After 6'6 though you get tagged with freak, giant, basketball player(as you pointed out).

Timebandit I have worked VERY hard for everything I have, no hand out no help. My co worker is where he is because they company want a certain image. Even our brocures use models, because no one in them works for our company. In fact there isn't a woman in our corporation who is under 40 that isn't 'HOT' other than maybe 2, now who would you think does the most and gets laid off first, you might be surprised but it was the ugly people. This has to do with the inherant good feeling people have toward someone that is good looking, Hell I do it and I am aware of the problem. Image is everything. SO quit your attempt at psychoanalyzing me. I took psychology so I am very aware of my own 'short' comings. Charisma is closely linked to looks. Sure the kid from mask was very cool and smart, but lets face it, he wasn't going to get elected to public office in a hurry, or you can ask Steve Forbes.

But I am saying it tends to be more prevelant in the ranks of the right. Look at Pallin, before she opened her mouth every 'red blooded american' would have went to war because she has nice legs and a sweet smile. Look at madeline albright, can you say the same about her, despite the fact she is very intelligent.

Thanks Lagatta and TOprof. This is something I have noticed. Someone above maybe feels guilt that they have achieved higher than they should have. Or maybe they aren't as attractive as they think(now that is psycho-analizing) I in no way said pretty people get a free ride. I said they have advantages over the ugly/fat/disabled people. When all things are equal you know the attractive person will get picked. Why do you think we have affirmative action?(When you look different it means not attractive, whether disabled, black, female, fat etc.) Also I am not saying pretty people strickly gravitate toward the right, hell I am here on the left, although a lot do(if you are on the left there is usally a reason, good parenting or some kind of obstacle in your life) But that they will follow someone who is attractive over other better qualities. What odds would Libby(very average looking) have of representing her riding if she was a con if she was against Rona? Surely there was someone smarter in these riding(jaffer, gueris, ambrose) with some amount of charisma.

They had to win the riding first after all and in alberta a house plant could win.

Oh BTW in hollywood they have a lot of the leading ladies wear flats or walk in a trench because a number of the leading men are shortish. I find it offensive that in todays society we still have to have the perfect 3-6 inch differance between man to woman. My last GF was 3 inches taller, big deal. But Cruise, Gibson, Stalone, Pacino, Hoffman, Kurt Russel are all 5'9 and under but many of their leading lady's were quite tall, nicole kidman comes to mind. So how does tom look taller than her in the movies they did together. This I guess you could consider leftwing lookism, if onedoes consider hollywood leftwing(I don't as they promote war non stop).

______________________________________________________________________________________
"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
Noam Chomsky

Thu, 2008-11-27 03:20

thorin_bane

This is just my perspective of being short, yeah I know I have SMS I already stated I know this. I am just stating about lookism from my point of view.

[url=http://mycomplexsimplicity.blogspot.com/2005/09/shortismjust-another-ism... here[/url]

"researchers who analyzed data...that followed thousands of people
from birth to adulthood calculated that when corrected for such
variables such as age and gender and weight, an inch of height is worth
$789 a year in salary. A person who is six feet tall but other wise
identical to a person who is five foot five will make an average of
$5,525 more per year...Of the tens of millions of American men below
five foot six, a grand total of ten in my sample have reached the level
of CEO, which says being short is probably as much of a handicap to
corporate success as being a woman or an African American...."

Another example would be George W is the one of just 3 president to win an election(and that can be argued) who was shorter than his opponent. And he was 6'2"

Being short for a man is the same as being overwieght for a woman, with the added sad reality, that there is literally no way to gain height short of $90,000 and a lot of pain from broken legs.

Thu, 2008-11-27 08:07

lagatta

Yeah, and little as I like Sarkozy (to put it mildly), I'm sick of all the supposedly leftwing and alternative cartoonists endlessly harping about him being a "dwarf" (he's not a dwarf at all, that is a specific condition, and he's about your height). And being an aggressive shit because of the "short-man complex". I was discussing this in Paris with two friends who have in common to be short - one is actually a bit shorter than me and I'm what - 5'2" 1/2? (Was 5'3", but that was at 20, not at 50) and to be extremely brilliant intellectuals - one is a historian; the other a philosopher. And not at all snotty or aggressive, despite living in the very snotty-friendly world of Parisian intelligensia (neither is native French, though).

Closer to home, René Lévesque did get some "little guy" ribbing, but it was mostly affectionate, not assumptions about his competence or character. He was seen as Astérix to Parizeau's Obélix, but that is a fairly positive caricature in francophone cultures.

I can imagine, with those stereotypes, certain taller women not even considering men a few inches/cm shorter as partners. I'm short enough that the issue never came up. I've never been particularly attracted to tall men, but I think most partners have been a couple to a few inches taller than me.

The only problem shortish women have (I'm not talking about people who are really handicapped by lack of height) is the weight one. Even a bit of middle-aged weight gain immediately makes us look "dumpy". I'm not talking about the severe obesity that is both a dire health hazard and makes people make loud and nasty comments on the street - though a short and frankly very heavy friend who put on a LOT of weight after two difficult pregnancies when she was basically bedridden not only gets those constantly but lost a job at an insurance company because she didn't "project a professional image" She could have sued, I guess, but was far too mortified.

But just being seen as mumsy and domestic - there is a sort of androgynous type put forth in the more "professional" versions of feminist thought. Ségolène Royal to Martine Aubry. Hillary Clinton got that too, for being short and "pear-shaped".

Thu, 2008-11-27 10:02

Fotheringay-Phipps

Hands up, anyone who hasn't lived through the following:

5'6" supervisor enters the room and says: "Jack, I asked you to get back to that guy in Montreal last Thursday. Now he's on the phone yelling at me again. You still haven't done anything about the late deliveries. And listen, I don't want to be a total hardass, but if you're going to spark up in the men's room, could you at least turn the fan on before you leave?"

As the supervisor leaves the room, Jack (5'10") smirks at his co-workers and says with a wordly-wise shake of the head, "Napoleon complex."

Thu, 2008-11-27 10:39

#10

lagatta

Which is odd, as Napoleon was actually a perfectly average height for a Frenchman of his era - people were much shorter on average 200 years ago, in many countries. http://ask.yahoo.com/20030724.html

As the article said, it could be the contrast with the Imperial Guard - it could also have been a class thing (getting back to the original thread subject) as aristocrats, well-fed for generations, would tend to be taller than such an "upstart". There were exceptions, of course, such as Sun King Louis XIV, but the latter always wore heels.

The rightwing lookist thing makes me think of Barb Amiel and all her barbs about "envious" people... But there we are really getting into serious Schadenfreude territory, as with Coulter.

Thu, 2008-11-27 12:26

#11

remind

Funny, I put a post up last night to thorin, and it is completely not here this am!

Anyhow the essense of it was, I started a thread back in the early summer, about recent studies on dimunitive statured people, and how the bigotry and bias towards them would not be tolerated in other instances. I also had noted that some sports are particularily bad and do not factor in height categories at all, whereas they should, much the same as boxing does for differing weight categories.

Of note, not 1 person was interested in discussing this.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Thu, 2008-11-27 12:37

#12

lagatta

I hadn't seen it. I would have been interested.

Think about the only short-positive sports are car racing, horse jockeying and gymnastics (there is it more a case of light weight).

Thu, 2008-11-27 13:06

#13

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

thorin bane wrote: "Timebandit I have worked VERY hard for everything I have, no hand out no help. My co worker is where he is because they company want a certain image. Even our brocures use models, because no one in them works for our company. In fact there isn't a woman in our corporation who is under 40 that isn't 'HOT' other than maybe 2, now who would you think does the most and gets laid off first, you might be surprised but it was the ugly people. This has to do with the inherant good feeling people have toward someone that is good looking, Hell I do it and I am aware of the problem. Image is everything. SO quit your attempt at psychoanalyzing me. I took psychology so I am very aware of my own 'short' comings. Charisma is closely linked to looks. Sure the kid from mask was very cool and smart, but lets face it, he wasn't going to get elected to public office in a hurry, or you can ask Steve Forbes."

Okay, you've worked hard with no hand out. So have I, and I resent the implication that what hard-won successes I've had may have been given me because of my looks. I was also not attempting to "psychoanalyze" you -- it just seemed that you were very focused on the superficial with little regard or credence given to any other reason for the success of others.

Maybe you do work in a company that has an overly image-conscious corporate culture. That doesn't mean you can apply your experience there to the rest of the world as hard fact.

Maybe you need to move on to another place of work if you feel your opportunities are limited there. I would. I've also worked with lots of management who were short men, and lots more who weren't especially pretty. While I get your point, I still think you've inflated it some.

Thu, 2008-11-27 13:55

#14

remind

Lagatta, it was a very interesting report regarding studies on the parameters and effects of diminutive statured biases. Trying to remember, where and why I had came across it, to see if I could dig it back up. It is an area of discrimination that needs to be addressed, and it is completely overlooked.

I truly believe that people who are short, are conceptually infantilised by many people and hence the discrimination like that which thorin posted above, regarding lower wages for every inch of shortness. So it becomes a matter of changing public conceptual frameworks, en masse.

As that is what the special olympics have done, as well as the Terry Fox run, the Rick Hansen Man in Motion world tour, the TV show Sue Thomas FBEye and other such public framings of "ability" in the face of formerly perceived disability. Alternate perceptions are/were framed that indeed a perceived disability does not render one useless, to be shunted aside in society. And society is moving towards greater understanding of ablism. Moreover, the TLC show Little People, Big World is also drawing awareness to short people capabilities, and their "normality" as well as the broader societal lacks in this respect.

When I did occupational therapy with paligics, the biggest challenge was to reframe their conceptions of self, and that of their families and friends, as being that of an able person, who just faces challenges that others do not.

Contemplating how to start to aleviate short statured discrimination, I came to the conclusion it must first start in public sports that are height biased. It seems, to me at least, that it would be one of the fastest routes to change perception to one of capabilitiy and high level functioning, physically and mentally. Those who are not sports inclined would still benefit from the reframing of conceptions.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Thu, 2008-11-27 14:04

#15

thorin_bane

Thanks remind I would have participated also. I have done a lot of investigating into the short thing, as you can imagine. There was a CBC call in show from winnipeg a few years ago. They asked short people to call in to talk about the issue. They had 2 short women call in and then a raft of tall men (Of note was no tall women called in) talking about their issues instead and to scoff at the premise. . I think that is the fly in the ointment.

One guy called in to say he had hardships because he was 6'2 and found airplane flight uncomfortable(OMG dude you aren't even a tall man), one was a guy 6'5 who had problems finding a decent length bed. Another 6'3 said he always felt crunched in a theatre. Well when I sit behind someone like him I don't see the screen. While these things do suck, not one person when asked, responded with they wouldn't mind being shorter. They liked their height. Most short people don't. But it was perfect irony as to why short people don't talk about and make much of a fuss.

I sympathize with tall woman for their time as an adolescent. My cousin(who just got married last saturday) was 5'11 when she was 14(she also had dirty blond hair). It was very hard on her during that time period. But she has come to terms with the teenage angst of it. The tall thing for her is rarely brought up now. As a teenager and not filling out most tall girls would look very 'gangly' kinda Olive Oil like. So they don't think that in 5 years they might look like Elsa Benetiz or Elle MacPherson, positive rolemodels and all. I understand that finding clothing is quite difficult esp if you are a woman.

My friend who I mentioned upthread, his wife is 5'10". He was telling me she was in tears because she couldn't find a teddy for christmas, she has a long torso. The crotch kept undoing on her when she would stand up. I recommended a big and tall store. "I never thought of that, what do you do shop in the childrens department" Thanks I help you out and you give me a backhanded comment. I have explained to him the whole height thing, and he has come around to seeing that it isn't JUST my imagination. But I am aware that I sometimes interpret things as solely because I am short when it clearly isn't. I try to step ack at this point.

The one thing that I am VERY fortunate is NO BAD BACK. I don't think I would trade the health issues of someone in the tall category for my daily ribbing though. But it would be nice to be ...5'7 ish.

My cousin, male, is known as the 'little tyrant'. He manages the mall and is demanding of his people to make sure the place looks clean. I have seen him at work(I go to the mall on occasion) I found him to be no more aggresive than my bosses but this was before I knew about his nickname.

Actually we can just look to Layton on this one. He isn't that short, but every cartoon I have seen of him, he is usually depicted as an oompa loompa.

Now don't get me wrong. Things aren't all bad. It is just we don't like
to get dismissed out of hand. Hell I am much happier being able to walk
around even if I need a stool for the cupboards.

The barriers that disabled people face is way worse than anything I encounter. However I don't give quarter to someone for their issues as we all have them. Like Steve Fletcher. Just because your are disabled doesn't mean your politics get a pass. This is curious to me. How does one migrate to a party that says 'make your own way' like the cons do. If they had their way there wouldn't be any ramps because that is a regulation. Yet Fletcher is part of this party. The only thing I can see is he had this ideology when he was 17 before his accident and was going to be a hardaass and support it to show how pure he was. I don't get it.

We can change this thread to cover a little more ground than my original post. Thanks for the input. Remind if you can cover some of the issues you have faced in relation to say bumping your head j/k it would also help as I know a lot of the tall men issues but few of the tall women issues. IS a bad back as inherant in tall woman as tall men? Actually I don't know if there is a tall store for women although they have petit and large size stores.

Thu, 2008-11-27 14:35

#16

lagatta

The stool isn't the problem. I'm two inches shorter than you are, and sure need a stool everywhere. But short men face more discrimination than short women do (I'm talking about "normal range" people, like us, not people considered to have a disability). And they don't have the fashion/role models available to girls seen as overly tall. (And those who find that too airheady a model can now look to Michelle Obama, who is almost 6' tall).

I never even noticed that Layton was short. René Lévesque, yes.

You'll be happier as a tourist in a lot of Asian countries, central America etc than in the Netherlands. It is really a pain for shorties! The coathooks and straps to hang on in trams are too bloody high! The famous bicycles are too big!

Tall stores for women exist, but they are rare. Tall women have more luck with catalogues, that often have longer sleeves and trouser legs available. Or they can shop in Amsterdam!

As for the "children's department" thing, when Chinese immigrants were much rarer than today, just after the war, Eatons would annoy gentlemen from this community by suggesting that they shop in the boys' department. (Their Canadian-born sons and grandsons tend to be much taller).

Thu, 2008-11-27 15:28

#17

remind

Thorin, my partner, has a very bad back, he used to be 6'7" and 3/4" but has so far lost 3/4" due to disintegrating vertebraes. He also has bad vericose veins in his legs because he has a relatively short torso, but extremely long legs, 40" inseam, and very long arms too. In low ceiling dwellings, he has to be careful about pulling off a sweater or T shirt over his head, as he has wiped out numerous light fixtures and ceiling light bulbs. Conversly he does not have to stand on anything to paint walls or ceilings either.

Maybe you know, or are related to, my tall cousins in Winnipeg Thorin? As I have short cousins there too. ;)

I do not have any tall woman issues, as I am now only 5'7", but I reached 5'7.5" by 12, and most other kids were 4' something, so it was bad back when I was a young child. Now it is a different story for my partner's sisters who are 6' and 6'1" as they have had issues with finding jobs, as men do not like to hire women taller than themselves, it seems, in most every field. They wear a lot of skirts as well, as they have a difficult time in finding 36" women's inseams in dress pants. They buy men's jeans most often.

I also have to use a stool to reach the top cupboards. We had to have our kitchen cupboards a bit higher than average, to compensate for my partner's height, and bad back, as it is an equal opportunity cooking and cleaning household, so the counter top is a bit high for me, as are the top cupboards, and we have more them than bottom ones, also because of back and bending down issues.

______________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Thu, 2008-11-27 16:05

#18

thorin_bane

Nah I'm from windsor. But the story was the noonhour show from winnipeg. Wish i could find that link.

I assume the jeans are ill fitting. Even being taller doesn't change the general contour of our body. The odd time my moms pants would end up in my basket when I lived at home, I would be "these don't fit right???" Your sister in laws problem doesn't surprise me. Men are often intimidated by someone taller or smarter than themselves. Sorry to hear about your partners back. Like I mentioned, getting a stool doesn't bother me when I see the problem very tall people have in regards to health.

I have a chinese friend who sugested I go to china, being white there is an advantage(at least for dating). She speaks mandarin, I don't. Although that might not be a bad idea. Lagatta you brought up something I noticed. 3rd generation(even 2nd) asians do not look like their parents for bodytypes. I think proper nutrients and a lot of food contirbutes to this. Lots of second and third gen asians are quite tall(6 foot for males isn't uncommon unlike their parents) and they fill out a lot more in the hips butt and chest for women. The netherlands has the tallest people woth men averaging 6'1" fully 3 inches taller than americans. I can't even imagine a place where the average is 6'1" I would suggest that remind go shopping there for her partner. Besides I hear it's a lot of fun in europe.

[img]http://www.grastoon.com/toons/101807pinata.gif[/img]

Laytons depiction in our local paper.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
Noam Chomsky

Thu, 2008-11-27 17:24

#19

jrootham

lagatta wrote:
I hadn't seen it. I would have been interested.
Think about the only short-positive sports are car racing, horse jockeying and gymnastics (there is it more a case of light weight).

Weight lifting

Thu, 2008-11-27 17:35

#20

lagatta

Average height in the US seems to have declined, and no, it is not because of immigration from Mexico and Central America. It seems this is an equality and social development issue, although of course genetics does play a part too.

Thu, 2008-11-27 17:43

#21

martin dufresne

From today's Montreal Gazette

Thu, 2008-11-27 23:54

#22

Malcolm

I don't know what it says about "lookism" in our society - or about me - but in my mind I had never pictured remind as either tall or blond.

Curious how one creates an image of what an anonymous correspondent looks like.

Fri, 2008-11-28 00:15

#23

lagatta

I'm in training to be tall and blonde!

Fri, 2008-11-28 00:31

#24

Papal Bull

Malcolm wrote:

Curious how one creates an image of what an anonymous correspondent looks like.

Well, what do you think about other members? I met some babblers ages ago, I've always wondered what others look like. It is always interesting to have your mind's eye challenged.

Fri, 2008-11-28 01:03

#25

thorin_bane

IN highschool I looked like that kid that did encyclopedia britanica with the glasses and mullet

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBxl8Cq-fI]ME BACK THEN uggh[/url] some people called me macguyver.

Fri, 2008-11-28 01:17

#26

remind

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know what it says about "lookism" in our society - or about me - but in my mind I had never pictured remind as either tall or blond.

Curious how one creates an image of what an anonymous correspondent looks like.

Well now, I am not tall, 5'7" is not tall per se, it is about average.

And these days the blonde is liberally chunked with pure white, though it is long and wavy. Downright curly if I am on the coast. My daughter and granddaughter think I look like a sorceress. Perhaps the look comes natually with the territory?

And lagatta, I always wanted to be diminuative with dark hair, and the curls could stay!

Will refrain from asking malcolm how he visualied me. :eek:

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Fri, 2008-11-28 01:21

#27

remind

thorin_bane wrote:
some people called me macguyver.

I *heart* Richard Dean Anderson and will admit to being a Star Gate fanatic.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Fri, 2008-11-28 02:43

#28

thorin_bane

I love the term I *heart* ever since it was used on married with children "The guy has a licence plate that says I heart san quentin" After that I think JohnnyCash.

RDA had it going on in the 80's I was happy resembling him with glasses.

Fri, 2008-11-28 08:53

#29

Fotheringay-Phipps

As I age, I remember less and less context for what I read, so you'll have to trust me on this one, but...

A psychologist in the States did an experiment where he paired up men and women and told them they would be conducting five-minute telephone conversations on neutral topics. Each woman was phoned twice, once by a man who was shown a picture of her that portrayed her as stunningly beautiful, once by a man shown a picture of her that portrayed her as plain.

The men were interviewed afterwards and --holy halo effect--the men shown the Lola Vavoom photo rated the same woman as more outgoing, cheerful, and competent than themen who were shown the Dorothy Doerksen photo. Unsurprising so far.

But then a recording of the women's side of each conversation was played to a third group of men who were told nothing about each woman and shown no photos. And without exception, men who listened to the women portrayed as beautiful to the earlier group found them more outgoing, cheerful, and competent than the same women in their plain incarnation. Remember, this third group of men had nothing more than a disembodied voice to go on.

Seems that to a certain extent we become what others see. or as Proverbs says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." And it must be nice to be one of those constantly signalled that they are worthy, competent, and desirable. They actually become those things. But we all have our moment. Surely you've noticed that people in the first phases of love actually are just about as attractive as their besotted other sees them.

And plainness does have its advantages. I remember reading somewhere that the English writer Margery Allingham once said that she owed her success to being a cheerful fat middle-aged woman of no particular beauty. People on the Tube and in tea-shops would say things in front of her that they would never say in front of anyone else. She had a privileged seat at the theatre of life.

Fri, 2008-11-28 09:02

#30

Catchfire

Wonderful post, FP. And welcome to babble if you haven't been. And even if you have.

Fri, 2008-11-28 13:08

#31

Malcolm

I think, remind, that I pictured you as shortish, with shortish dark hair. And for the longest time I pictured you with a scowl, but that eventually went away.

Fri, 2008-11-28 15:10

#32

martin dufresne

A personal anecdote along the "mind's eye" research. I am the "Quand j'aime une fois j'aime pour toujours" kind of guy. For better or worse, I keep a quiet flame going for people I have been very close to. One such female friend has really not aged well for all kinds of heavy reasons - chronic occupational disease, alcohol, divorce, mental problems, dysfunctional family issues... I used to come around to her city once or twice a year: we'd make small talk, go for ahike, go out, buy a record, have dinner, share news of our kids and families.

Now, every time I arrived at her place, I would think: "Oh my God, I can't believe how much she has aged and looks sad." But over the next half-hour or so, even when conversation was tense - I tend to argue more than listen very long and we entirely disagree on most issues -, I would stop seeing the age and the bitterness and see her as she was when we were 20 and crazy. I don't know if she felt this and actually gained any of the confidence I felt she gradually showed as a result of what was an unconscious process on my part . But it was a pretty nifty bit of magick to seemingly turn back the clock on life, if for a few hours...

Fri, 2008-11-28 15:24

#33

thorin_bane

There is a google video called [url=http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&q=bbc%20sex&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&... OF THE SEXES[/url] and they conducted tests with in love and out of love couples. They had them look at modified photos to see if they could pick out which was the closest to how their spouse looked. As you can imagine the in love couples thought the best looking picture(etter than the real one) was how their partner looked. While the opposite was true of those having difficulties.

Fri, 2008-11-28 16:24

#34

500_Apples

torontoprofessor wrote:

From the ages of 17 to 21, I worked at a day camp, where we had kids aged 4 to 10. I was dismayed, though not surprised, at just how much more attention and praise the good-looking kids got from the counsellors, even (indeed, especially) at the age of 4 or 5. I made a point of paying special attention to the less cute more homely kids, partly because it was heartbreaking to see them so routinely ignored (and almost never gushed over). I hate to confess that doing this took some effort: the path of least resistance would have been to gush over the cute ones like everyone else.

You're an exceptional person.

Fri, 2008-11-28 16:39

#35

500_Apples

lagatta wrote:
Average height in the US seems to have declined, and no, it is not because of immigration from Mexico and Central America. It seems this is an equality and social development issue, although of course genetics does play a part too.

Do they eat more vegetables in the Netherlands?

Fri, 2008-11-28 16:41

#36

500_Apples

remind wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't know what it says about "lookism" in our society - or about me - but in my mind I had never pictured remind as either tall or blond.

Curious how one creates an image of what an anonymous correspondent looks like.

Well now, I am not tall, 5'7" is not tall per se, it is about average.

And these days the blonde is liberally chunked with pure white, though it is long and wavy. Downright curly if I am on the coast. My daughter and granddaughter think I look like a sorceress. Perhaps the look comes natually with the territory?

And lagatta, I always wanted to be diminuative with dark hair, and the curls could stay!

Will refrain from asking malcolm how he visualied me. :eek:

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Average height for a woman is 5"4...

I never get why people always overestimate the average height of women. Must be the shoes. I never see anyone get far off from 5"10 as the average height for men.

Fri, 2008-11-28 17:48

#37

lagatta

More vegetables in Netherlands? Certainly less than in Mediterranean Europe, and a lot of the veg is grown in greenhouses and not exceptionally tasty. But probably less junk than in the US. Also far greater income equality (despite persistent problems), health and social services etc. And people cycle more than they drive.

Fri, 2008-11-28 17:54

#38

martin dufresne

I have read that the exceptional height of Netherlanders is due to the amount of dairy products in their diet.

Maybe it also has to do with most of them living a few metres below sea level... Survival value... wooden shoes...

Fri, 2008-11-28 17:59

#39

Papal Bull

So, they intend to walk on the water should they not be tall enough to adapt to keeping to the shallows and having their heads above the water?

Fri, 2008-11-28 17:59

#40

martin dufresne

5'10" average height for men??? You mean I'm... short? You've got to be kidding...

That's like casually mentioning in mixed company that average penis length is eleven inches... surefire way to make the guys look crestfallen...

Fri, 2008-11-28 18:04

#41

lagatta

Yes, they certainly do consume a lot of dairy products. I can't drink cow's milk, but when over there can buy delicious goat's milk gouda and other cheeses much cheaper than here.

And I have seen non-pregnant adults drinking milk, which is very rare elsewhere in Europe except for café-au-lait at breakfast. Dairy counters are large in supermarkets, even small ones, with yoghourt, vla (a type of liquidy pudding which people have at breakfast, all kinds of cheeses, milks, fermented milks etc.

None of which has much to do with lookism except that one smiles after eating nice cheese. And they are so bloody tall I get a crook in my neck looking at them.

Very Amsterdamish day here in Montréal today. Not cold, grey, drizzly almost-snow, but perfectly cyclable. And I did.

Fri, 2008-11-28 23:13

#42

martin dufresne

I went riding too, down to Chinatown for some mongolian fondue and fiery conversation. Miam...

Sat, 2008-11-29 09:31

#43

lagatta

Oh, that sounds nice. Cyclable today too. Will do, as we may well be getting some serious snow (yecch) on Monday.

Yes, that is actually AVERAGE height for men. And remember that there are immigrants and their children from "shorter" countries - Indonesians aren't typically very tall, for example, though the Dutch-born children once again are taller than their foreign-born parents. Despite the wartime privations, I've seen an astonishing number of tall older people, men and women. Six-foot women are not uncommon, neither are two-metre men (no, I'm NOT talking about penis size). Good place for tall people to buy jeans and long-sleeved shirts.

Hey, they've announced rain instead of snow for Monday now! One can hope.