"The opposition has rediscovered that it has the majority"

Webgear][quote=Interested Observer wrote:

kylebailey260 wrote:

is reporting that a conservative got the call-in number for the caucus conference call, and recorded it.

 

Well.... it is nice to see security related issues are well throughout in the NDP. Lets just give the number away to everyone. If they can not keep a secret between themselves how are they supposed to run a government?  And why would the Conservatives state they recorded the NDP conference call, what a bunch of dumbasses. Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired.

 

 

 

 

 

Having read as much as is available right now it isn't clear to me that this this call was not hacked into in some way.  It seems unlikely that the number was passed on.  Not only that the PMO has directly released a transcript of the call.  In otherwords the PMO has directly involved itself in a clear ethical violation of reporting a rival party's private call.  I think we can look for significant blow back on Harper with this in fact. 

Oh and having read a transcript of the call Robert Fife has significantly oversold this.  It is clear discussion have been going on, and I would bet with the government too on a number of what if scenarios.  That would be very, very normal.  What has happened though is that Harper handed the opposition the incentive they needed to explore this particular what if much further.

"Whoever is running their public relations needs to be fired." Maybe that person figured that this indiscretion - and separation pay to not make any more - was the most lucrative alternative, as the CP payroll is about to be severely cut back...?

Interested Observer wrote:

Greens want a progressive coalition just as much as the rest of us, if not more so. Strategically this is incredibly important for their continued existance and prosperity, possibly more so than the financing issue, although that is now basically dealt with anyway.

That's good, because as soon as this coalition gets through a fiscal stimulus package and other good things for the citizens of this country, then I would expect that they eliminate party funding from the public trough. Because it is the right thing to do. Harper was merely trying to kill the LPC and do little else, as opposed to an honest discussion on election funding reform. The coalition can work on a better system at a later date. First things first.  Canadians.

kylebailey260 wrote:

I don't have a huge problem with the NDP not being super secure with their call-in number. The fundamentals of democracy should be founded upon the idea that parties can meet without spying on each other NOT on the ability of parties to meet without snooping for bugs, or making sure that their number has floated into someone's hands, who is then recording it.

 If say, we took this back to a situation before conference calls were commonplace, then the NDP caucus would have been meeting in a physical room, and some con would have figured out which room, and hidden behind some door/eavesdropped through the wall and recorded it all.

The NDP shouldn't need to double-check that someone is recording their meetings...they ought to be able assume that rival political parties aren't eavesdropping. 

I have to disagree with you. It appears the NDP have no concept of security, if they want to be the governing party of Canada, they have shown themselves incapable on this issue alone.  

Yes they should have made sure their discussion was not being monitored, it is their responsibility to ensure that their discussions are kept private, if they are not going to provide their own security why should anyone else do it for them.

I agree that fundamentals of democracy is that you do not spy on your opponents however we all know that each party spies on all the other parties.

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Something does not compute.

Interested Observer wrote:

How is public funding a bad thing? Even the Americans have a public financing system. It ensures that the voices of all parties can be heard so that voters can be properly informed. Nothing wrong with that at all!

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

I remember when I was on a bargaining committee, and being a union rep.  I never said sensitive stuff in a place that could be bugged.  Seems a little paranoid-- I had no reason to suspect that the HR people would do such a thing, but it's the only way to make sure.

kylebailey260 wrote:

 

I'm calling you on doublespeak. Or you admitting that the cons got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy. Either way, the story hear is that the cons got caught doing it...by releasing the results themselves.

 

Yes, the Conservatives got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy however lets not kid ourselves all parties spy on each other.

Call it research or whatever you want but all parties have detailed knowledge on what the others are up too. I bet the NDP have a few secrets on the other parties up their sleeves, just waiting for a rainy day to be released.

There are fundamentals of democracy and then there are realties of democracy.

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I think Webgear is right about security, really.

I remember when I was on a bargaining committee, and being a union rep.  I never said sensitive stuff in a place that could be bugged.  Seems a little paranoid-- I had no reason to suspect that the HR people would do such a thing, but it's the only way to make sure.

 

 Has anyone heard the tape? What I have read, I haven't seen the smoking gun of some kind of conspiracy. Infact, what CP has reported suggests nothing that would make a story.  So whats the story?

Depending on the spin, the CPC have to make a mountain from a molehill, but it could well and good do them more harm. They have the bully techniques of Bush and the honour of Nixon. 

Whos coming out on top? 

1. The tape is not especially damning, except in one respect: it suggests that this was planned well in advance, helping the Tories frame this as a power-grab. It still isn't that incendiary.

2. On the other hand the "spying" charge is kind of diminished by the fact that the Tory MP was invited to the conversation by accident (in fact that charge can backfire and make the NDP look bad for screwing up).  

abnormal wrote:

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Something does not compute.

Are we to assume, then, that you believe that countries around the world which have proportional representation, and very frequently see coalitions, are undemocratic?  The fact of the matter is that in a minority parliament there are three possibilities:

1. Let the strongest minority govern as though they had a majority, by supporting their bills even if you disagree with them.  Not at all democratic, because it gives a small portion of the population a say over what happens to everyone else.  It's basically oligarchy.

2. Let the strongest minority party govern as though they had a majority, by refusing to vote and thus letting their bills technically pass while putting on a show of disapproval.  Not at all democratic.

3. Two or more of the minority parties come together to form a coalition.  Since this option is equally available to all the parties, and represents the largest bloc of interests possible, it is the most democratic option.  Keep in mind that there was no good reason that the Conservatives couldn't have gained the support of one of the other parties; they just didn't bother trying, because Stephen Harper wants to be king.

EDIT: In retrospect that post was probably not worth replying to in so much detail since it's basically a Conservative talking point copy/pasted.

I think the point is that none of the parties talked about forming a coalition government 10 weeks ago, if they had maybe voters would have chosen a coalition style government.

During the election the liberals, Bloc were seen as mortal enemies of the NDP, they were the scum of the earth, nothing better than dead cattle thieves however a few short months later they seem to be ok enough to form a coalition government with.

These are strange and interesting times, where organizations are willing to sell their souls in order to gain power.

Fidel wrote:

 The Conservatives are well practiced with plotting and scheming in closed door meetings. They're better at doing that than actually running the country. Same with the Liberals

Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better.

abnormal wrote:

Let's see if I understand.  The Conservatives form a minority government which, because of the way the first past the post system works, got a relatively small share of the popular vote.

So the idea is to replace it with a coalition government that no-one voted for???

Uh, no.  A bunch of candidates were elected by their constituents to represent their interests in Parliament.  The representatives who will form the Government were all voted in by their consituents.

Government is controlled by the votes of a majority of the MPs... does that compute?

"I think the point is that none of the parties talked about forming a coalition government 10 weeks ago, if they had maybe voters would have chosen a coalition style government."

I could argue that properly informed voters should know that a coalition government is something that could result in any election. In fact, I think quite a number of voters thought this a viable prospect before the end of the election. 

"During the election the liberals, Bloc were seen as mortal enemies of the NDP, they were the scum of the earth, nothing better than dead cattle thieves however a few short months later they seem to be ok enough to form a coalition government with."  

You are confusing compaigning with politics.     I agree I wouldn't want to climb in bed with the Liberals, but for strategic reasons.  In principle, I wouldn't want to climb in bed with the Liberals either.  Or the Conservatives.  But, what if there was a gun to my head, and I had to climb into bed with one or the other?

Okay,  I'd choose the bullet, but I'm funny that way.  Most wouldn't.

 "Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better. "

Well.  It's about time we started bringing a gun to a gun fight.

Tommy_Paine wrote:

 "Well it appears the NDP where doing some plotting and scheming also however they appear not be on the same level as the Liberals and Conservatives but they are getting better. "

Well.  It's about time we started bringing a gun to a gun fight.

I always bring a second firearm, a knife and a grenade when I am going to a gun fight, it is always better to be more prepared then our enemies.

I do not believe the NDP are that prepared.

I agree with the rest of our post. I have no more counterpoints.

My view is that coalition is actually an essential and traditional mode of governing in a parlimentary democracy. It harkens back to the time when parties were looser, and representatives, representatives of the constituencies, not the parties they run for. It's the kind of thing that is normal and expected in a system with proportional representation. I think its a perfectly sensible way for representatives to "represent" their riding.

If riding representatives think it is best to represent their constituents by being in a coalition then so be it.

Webgear wrote:

 

Yes, the Conservatives got caught attacking the fundamentals of democracy however lets not kid ourselves all parties spy on each other.

 

Call it research or whatever you want but all parties have detailed knowledge on what the others are up too. I bet the NDP have a few secrets on the other parties up their sleeves, just waiting for a rainy day to be released.

 

There are fundamentals of democracy and then there are realties of democracy.

 

Not sure what experience you're drawing on, but having worked on an awful lot of campaigns at various levels I have never seen anything more ominous than members of other parties showing up at fundraisers or rallies to check them out. This is all done openly, and for the most part good-naturedly. 

I don't know anybody who would tolerate eavesdropping on another party's private calls or emails as part of a campaign, if only because it would inevitably come back to bite you.

On a separate point, it seems to me that there is a subtext to all this that has not had much attention.  Mr. Harper is vulnerable in ways he has not ever been as leader.  Rumours of angry party operatives are rife.

It seems to me that one serious potential coalition-killer would be Mr. Harper's resignation as Conservative leader.  If things spin out of control, expect to hear calls for him to go from within his party. At this point nobody has processed how thoroughly damaged he is, but I'm having a very hard time seeing any route out of this that doesn't leave him permanently wounded. Even having this discussed openly would cripple the Conservatives for months at the very least. Barring some Hail Mary move in the days ahead, I think he's done.

Hmmm. There's an opportunity for mischief in the blogosphere here I hadn't considered before. Gotta go...

Quote:

Just as there are conversations that undoubtedly take place between
Harper and Layton and Harper and dion and Dion and Layton and Dion and
Duceppe etc... is this supposed to surprise anyone???

Quote:

As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given
the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the Prime
Minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House
of Commons fail to support some part of the government’s program. We
respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together
constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation.We
believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give
you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the
opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising
your constitutional authority. Your attention to this matter is
appreciated.

Of course conversations have taken place.

Is this the authentic version which is on Taylor's website - no biggie here. Just basic political stuff that goes on every day with every party. Definitely a tempest in a teapot, apart from the aspect of it being taped, but let's not get sidtracked by it. Let's keep our eye on the big picture here, and boot these scallywags out.

 "Judy: Judy, and when I hear the beep stopping, I’m going to start the meeting.
Hello?

Judy: Hang on everybody, you don’t even need to give your name yet, I’m going to do a check in a second.
Hello?

Judy: Hi there, it’s okay, it’s Judy, we’re all set.
Okay Judy.

Jack: Hi Judy, we’re all, we got a bunch of caucus members here, we’ll just wait for your instructions, we’ll leave it on mute in the meantime.

Judy: Okay. Alright, I think I’ll start, uhm, it’s Judy, we’ve got exactly one hour and no more. We’re going to run this meeting very tight. I want everyone to put your phones on mute, also please do not anytime during this call, put your line on hold, because that causes a noise for everybody. We’re going to give an update, an over view from Jack, a report on what’s happening procedurally from the House, generally from Libby, and then thirdly a overview on the issue of platform and policy, from Kathleen, and then a chance for each caucus member to give a very succinct and brief point to indicate their concerns or issues that they would like to see raised by our team as we prepare any further documents. So, as you all know, we have our next meeting as our regular meeting Monday at ten o’clock, in Ottawa, we will have a chance there to have a more extensive roundtable that in through the week, so please don’t feel you have all the time for questions and concerns, but we will deal with that on Monday, so without further ado, let me call on Jack who must be very tired and going non-stop for the last three days, we appreciate what you’re doing Jack, and I think we’re all excited to get an update. Thanks, Jack.

Jack: Thank you very much, uh, keep the myth alive that I’m exhausted and working incredibly hard (laughter) I appreciate you relaying that, I was asleep by ten o’clock last night, and had a very good night, a very good sleep, and that was my Friday night. So, an update on where we are, the, uh, we’re in the middle of a very historic time, and we’re playing a key role in it, in some ways a catalytic role actually, because as we think back, we’ll realize that nobody really imagined that it would be possible for the Bloc Quebecois, the Liberal party of Canada ever to enter into any kind of a discussion around the future of the country and it turned out that we were the glue, and spotted and prepared for the opportunity, and had taken the steps that were required so that when that opportunity arose, which was when Mr. Harper made his disastrous strategic error, by not providing stimulus to the economy, and instead playing political games, we were able to move, and things began to move very quickly, however, many obstacles remain in our way, and so we’re in a real battle now. The negotiating process, I am, by the way in very very regular touch with the leader of the Liberal party, and the leader of the Bloc, frequently every day. At the same time, negotiation processes are underway, and in fact as we speak, our negotiating team that I’ve named to meet with the Liberal negotiating team are discussing the mechanics of a coalition government, and the form that it would take, the structure of cabinet, the way in which the logistics of a coalition government with the Liberals and the New Democrats would work, the key roles, and dispute resolution mechanisms, timelines, et cetera.
05:23 -
All of the logistics issues that you would expect would be a part of such a discussion are being negotiated now we hope that that part of the negotiations would be completed today. Our negotiating team consists of Brian Topp, who negotiated as a senior member of the Romano team in Saskatchewan, negotiating a similar coalition with the Liberal party there, and of course you know Brian is our campaign co-chair director. Ann McGrath, in her chief of staff role, she’s also wearing the president of the party hat still, and so she’s got several hats on at the moment. Ed Broadbent, Alan Blakely, Dawn Black, as a member of caucus I’ve selected to participate in this process, someone that I happen to know is also respected and trusted by key Liberals, Tom Mulcair, as our Quebec lieutenant, and Carl Belanger. Tom and Carl are the negotiating team with the Bloc team, and Brian and Dawn Black are negotiating with the Liberal team. We’re starting with two party talks, this will resolve itself into a tripartite conversation before the weekend is up, and the goal is to produce by the end of the weekend, an agreement on the machinery of the coalition, which would be signed off, particularly by the NDP and Liberals, but endorsed by the Bloc, and an agreement on policy program for the coalition, that would have three party agreement. I can’t go into the details on all of this stuff, particularly the machinery, but it’s in the process of negotiation, and we could consume an awful lot of time speculating about it, so I don’t propose that we spend that time today on this particular matter of question. But instead, there’s a golden opportunity today, for you to provide input on the policy matters, you can be assured that we have looked at our program, we’ve looked at our platform, we’ve looked at what I’ve been saying about economic stimulus, we’ve been in close consultations with the leadership of the labour movement around some of their key ideas and they’ve been providing terrific support, including at a high-level early morning meeting this morning, so much of what you would have want to see, it’s probably already there, you’ll hear a bit more about it later, but there’s an opportunity to touch base with all of you, because in the end, you’re going to be intimately a part of the delivery of all of this, and so that’s why we’re having this meeting at this point in time.
08:32 -

Jack: I made a list Judy, so I’ll take a whack and you’ll say if I’ve missed any…

Judy: Ya. Meetings, confidentiality, what can be said. Go ahead.

Jack: First, do MP’s have to be in Ottawa until we have a better sense of the potential confidence motion stakes. You have to remain agile. And with Ottawa being the base. Uh, and so when you’re organising your community meetings make sure there’s a speaker phone facility, or a webcam. Secondly, I believe that we should get immediately into the driver’s seats on organizing these community meetings, you have people who worked on your campaign who are exactly the kind of people, whether in labour movements, labour councils, uh, childcare groups, environmental groups, these are people that need to be pulled together. You get them together, and then they’ll take it from there, it doesn’t have to be your meeting, it shouldn’t be your meeting, but of course you’ll be there as the MP, and you’re part of the coalition, and you’re consulting with the community to make sure they’re open, so if anyone wants to come and protest and say it’s a bad idea, be there to make a real news event out of it, the youth comes with the emotion in favour of the coalition and an action plan coming from Thursday night, particularly focused on the weekend, with petitioning, and phone in shows, and god knows what else, a letter writing, one of the goals here is to of course, recruit as many names, addresses, emails, phone numbers as possibly can, because this coalition will need the support of these people, and then we will need their support when we get an election. Now, will there be an independent NDP caucus, yes. BQ stability issues, worry about BQ potentially being off-side, we’re taking that very much into account.  We have numerous strategies designed to deal with it, I actually believe they’re the least of our problems, but in case I’m wrong, let’s just say we have strategies, this whole thing would not have happened if the moves hadn’t have been made with the Bloc to lock them in early, because you couldn’t put three people together in one, in three hours.  The first part was done a long time ago, I won’t go into details, and the managing expectations, lists from groups, actually, the wisest people in the groups are already coming to the conclusion, some of them are in direct contact, saying probably wouldn’t be too helpful if we had long lists of stuff, right? What we really want is just to get Harper out and get the new group in because it’s going to be a hell of a lot better for everything we believe in, correct? Correct. So let’s stay on that track, and not start debating whether or not it’s twenty five percent change or fifteen percent change over here, let’s get them out, on the basis of unity not the basis of division. Somebody asked about Bill Casey, absolutely, in the game, uh, on confidentiality, we now have to get out and defend the idea of the coalition. This is not a secret that it’s been discussed, the various elements that are in it, you can say it’s all about getting the economy going, and transforming the economy for the twenty first century, use everything that you’ve seen in my speeches up until now, that you’ve all been using so well particularly when I’ve seen you on panels, and by the way, our team on panels, everybody, staff and MPs, rocking, absolutely rocking doing us proud, so yes, there is a coalition, we’re fighting for it, we’re trying to make it happen, we think it’s a good idea for Canada, the majority of Canadians voted to go in a different direction than Harper’s taking us, you can’t trust him, no matter anything, throw him out. What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it? He was given a minority, and he refused to work with the other parties, he had 38% of the vote and he’s trying to govern like he had 100% of the power, he’s the one who’s got democracy wrong, not us. So do not be defensive, to work among what we are doing is to give effect to the wishes of the majority of Canadians, have no doubt about that. The coalition for Canada, I love the idea, it could be a deal-breaker for the Bloc (laughter) so if we don’t go, we call it “The Coalition for Canada and Quebec,” (lots of laughter).  Well, welcome to the real world of….that’s not funny

Jack: And let me come to, I know it’s complicated, so let’s just be wise about how we put this thing together. I think that there were many good comments that were developed from this, right from Aboriginal, which was on our mind, right through to many of these other suggestions and we will do our very best to put this together. And I’ll just say one other thing about the issue of the Bloc: nothing could be better for our country, than to have the fifty members who’ve been elected to separate Quebec to actually helping to make Canada a better place. I think we just approach it on that basis, and say we’re willing to make Canada happen, here’s other things that we’re going to be investing in and transforming together, they’re willing to work with us, we’ll accept that offer. What will be important to point out is that this will be an NDP-Liberal coalition, which is supported by the Bloc, with policy ideas that the coalition is bringing forward. Okay? And that’s going to be helpful to you in your dealing with those that have concerns, because they, you can see where Harper’s going here, he’s going to say it’s the socialists and the separatists and the opportunists getting together. You know? Those are their talking points, and so we just need to push back. I want to thank everybody for the input, I would get going this weekend on getting groups together, start talking about organizing those Thursday meetings, act as the catalyst to make it happen, and then just let it go, it’ll roar, and it’ll be very exciting. If you’re in a larger city, and there’s several of you, or if you’re in the largest city and you’re on your own, act as the catalyst anyway, chances are there’s a bunch of Liberals in the other ridings on whom we want pressure placed, as I mentioned at the outset of the conversation. I guess we’re at the end.

Judy: I just want to add one thing, and that is so the major thing is here that the message we’re focused on the message, so that’s not confidential, what’s confidential is strategy, the discussion, details, the speculation about the other parties and their motivation and what they will or they won’t do, we should not talk at all about war rooms, or campaigns in that sense. We’re building, trying to create a coalition government that will be a Liberal-NDP coalition that will be supported by the Bloc and that’s the message that we want to get out, nothing about the discussions in the background, and when in doubt, call, probably Brad, and Brad on that issue and on the whole issue of the campaign, and organizing meetings, people will want to reach you quickly, what’s the best way?

Jack Harris: Judy, Jack Harris here, I know it’s a structure question, but I’m at a loss at this point to know whether we’re talking about a short-term, quick economic stimulus coalition, or are we talking about something that could last two or three years, this is kind of important in our own minds, as well because aside from economic stimulus of course, this coalition will have to govern on every part of the government, of the legislative of the -

Judy: Okay, let me ask Jack to answer that and then Brad, you give the best contact information.

Jack Layton: Longer term. Not short term.

Judy: Now, Brad, you’re going to be in demand, what’s the best way to get to you quickly?

Brad: For folks that are going to be holding panels that we’re setting up, we’re going to be briefing you and your media office, for your press secretaries, the press secretaries have been divided into thirds, so every member of caucus has been assigned, so those folks are going to be available to you, and working very closely with me, and I discourage anyone from phoning me, the smartest move would be to give me as much heads-up as possible, I’m on a panel in two minutes, is highly unhelpful, and I will fail you miserably, and I know some times that situation has to happen and it’s understandable, but obviously calling me on my cell is the fastest way or by sending me an email, at [email protected]

Judy: Alright, and is it you, not just on panels, organizing meetings, events, here at the grassroots level, who’s the best person?

Brad: It will not be me, I will not be able to assist with your meetings on the Thursday night, we will assign a member of the team to that."

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

 "I always bring a second firearm, a knife and a grenade when I am going to a gun fight, it is always better to be more prepared then our enemies."

Yours is a foxhole I wouldn't mind sharing.

I think it was amateurish of the NDP to allow themselves to be spied on. But nothing they said was particularly incindiary or unreasonable in a minority parliament.

 What I think is most interesting about this little leak is the media response to it, at least at Macleans. It seems to be negative and there are comparisons of Harper with Nixon. What I think this shows is that the Conservatives have let the media narrative escape from their grasp, which for the most part, they've held since their 2006 election. I think they're running scared.

Now the opposition can't get too confident. I think they need to be less amateurish in many ways. The bugging is just one of them, as is the fact that they'd be so aversley affected by the funding issue. I don't think Harper will "win the war" so long as he's still around. He's become a lightening rod.

As Dr. Dawg put it, Layton [is being] accused of smart politics.

So let me get this straight.

Jack Layton, foreseeing a time when a progressive coalition of opposition parties would be a go, smooths the way with the Bloc Québécois beforehand. Here's a transcript of a conference call (possibly obtained criminally by the Conservatives) that lays it out.

For sure, working across difference is "smart politics" and showing "real leadership" in Coming Together Right Now:

______________________________________________________________________________________
Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

I believe one point needs to be clarified about that conference call ... it was a Caucus meeting.  As was pointed out in the comments at Kady's blog, anyone on the hill would know that as such it was a private meeting.