Canada's Balkanization Crisis: causes, symptoms, solutions

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Sat, 2008-12-13 22:08

gram swaraj

What is happening to Canada?

It appears that we are entering a more intense phase of the balkanization of
Canada. Recent events are more about coalition vs. no coalition, I feel the
current crisis will soon prove to be about whether we can keep the Canadian
confederation together. Things are due to come to a head over the next five years, maybe the next five months. What are the causes, symptoms and solutions of the
balkanization that is now intensifying?

Cause: Underlying regional differences. They have always been there, and will
always be there. But the electoral system Canada currently uses magnifies
regionalism by rewarding seats of power to optimal concentrations of voting
blocs, rather than to the general will across the country.

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:14

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

gram swaraj wrote:
But the electoral system Canada currently uses magnifies regionalism by rewarding seats of power to optimal concentrations of voting blocs, rather than to the general will across the country.

What does that mean? What, for example, is a "seat of power"? What are "optimal concentrations of voting blocs"? And if there is a "general will" across the country, why is "balkanization" a problem?

[img]http://www.free-blinkies.com/blinkie-maker/img/777629001229223584.gif[/img]

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:16

Webgear

Maybe it is time for the Canadian confederation to end.

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:48

CMOT Dibbler

What Bakinization!? We don't live in Croatia for fuck sake! God but people can be idiots.

-------------------------

Takes more than combat gear to make a man Takes more than license for a gun Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can A gentleman will walk but never run -Sting, an englishman in new york

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:48

gram swaraj

Some symptoms:

- the BQ claims to represent Quebec

- the Conservatives claim to represent the west

If the coalition and/or the Iggy-Libs fall flat in these uncertain economic times, and this produces a
subsequent Harper majority, the official opposition could well be the Bloc
Quebecois.

Need I say more? Given the bad blood that has been roused by the neocon PM,
such a development could be terminal for Canada. Harper will do what he wants
with a majority, too weakly opposed by any party willing to work within the framework of
Confederation. His party is full of people whose sentiment towards Quebec can be
summed up by the phrase "Let them go." They are silenced for the sake of message
discipline, but beware, they are not far from Harper. Quebecers will finally
decide they can't live with a R.O.C. that puts a barbarian at the head of
a majority government, and the BQ will conveniently be in place to negotiate the break-up
of Canada.

A Harper majority could be the end of Canada, and we are not far from the
brink.

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Sat, 2008-12-13 22:50

gram swaraj

CMOT Dibbler wrote:

What Bakinization!? We don't live in Croatia for fuck sake! God but people can be idiots.

I'll let that statement speak for itself.

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Sat, 2008-12-13 22:51

Fidel

webgear wrote:
Maybe it is time for the Canadian confederation to end.

We dont need to end confederation. Our two old line parties have worked hard over the years toward dangerous decentralization of power. Canada has become a rightwing Libertarian's dream for weakened autonomous provinces and territoritories rich in natural resources and energy for corporate America and whoever to bribe and buy off and plunder with the greatest of ease. Canada isn't even a real country anymore.

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:53

Fidel

We even have a proxy military now that takes orders from Crazy George types using our puppets in Ottawa as talking heads for their ultra right-wing agendas

Sat, 2008-12-13 22:58

gram swaraj

Fidel wrote:

Canada isn't even a real country anymore.

I can't argue with anything Fidel said above. But I'm hanging on to some ideal concept of a "country." I guess it would consist of having some kind of control over choosing the kind of social, political, economic, cultural, etc. environment in which you live.

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Sat, 2008-12-13 23:16

#10

old_bolshie

OP must not have travelled much to call a harmonious place like Canada balkanised.

Sat, 2008-12-13 23:25

#11

Webgear

Fidel, your points provide reasons why the country should cease to end.

Sat, 2008-12-13 23:39

#12

Fidel

webgear wrote:

Fidel, your points provide reasons why the country should cease to end.

I wish the country would cease ending, too. We need a real leader in Ottawa for starters. It's the democracy gap.

Sun, 2008-12-14 00:04

#13

gram swaraj

M. Spector wrote:

What, for example, is a "seat of power"? What are "optimal concentrations of
voting blocs"? And if there is a "general will" across the country, why is
"balkanization" a problem?

I shall indulge you. I am not an academic in this field so pardon my inexact
language.

Seat of power = seats on the government side of the house. ie, Potential to
be in cabinet, if not PM.

Optimal concentration... = If you have looked into the reasons for
proportional representation, there's a better chance you'd have an idea of what
I was trying (very insufficiently I admit) to get at. An optimal concentration
of votes for a party in a riding, in the current FPTP system, would be obviously not so few that the party does not win a seat, thereby having those
votes "wasted" and unrepresented. The potential for wasted votes is the
rationale underlying vote-trading websites, as appeared last election. But nor
would an optimal concentration, under the current system, for a party in a
riding consist of too many votes for the party, as anything exceeding what's
needed to win is not expressed in terms of additional seats. In other words there would also be more "wasted" or underrepresented
votes. So for example, a BQ MP that gets elected with 40% of votes cast, is in a
riding with a more optimal concentration of votes than a Liberal in a Montreal
riding who receives 65% of the votes. Both ridings get the same number of seats
- one. By "optimal concentration", I mean optimal for turning votes cast nationally into seats in
the House, under the current electoral system of "first-past-the-post." The BQ's
got it good in this respect - they are milking the system. The NDP gets shafted,
since broad-based but thinly spread support is not rewarded.

"And if there is a 'general will' across the country, why is 'balkanization'
a problem?"

That's precisely my question. The current electoral system awards
concentration of votes, not overall numbers across the country. I feel like I'm
writing all this for someone who has not considered proportional representation,
which I guess I am, not just for M. Spector.

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Sun, 2008-12-14 00:10

#14

gram swaraj

old_bolshie wrote:
OP must not have travelled much to call a harmonious place like Canada balkanised.

OB must not have read much to not realize the term "balkanized" has a more generalized meaning, referring to fragmentation and disunity.

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Sun, 2008-12-14 00:16

#15

Fidel

Good post, Gram. herr Harper is trying to divide and conquer. He loathes Quebecers for not handing him a phony majority. And now he lashes out in an attempt to revive old regional conflicts and chaos in general. Canada ranks 109th in voter participation, and I think Canadians are fed up with the usual bozos in the two old line parties propped up by Bay Street and ruling by phony majority. Harper runs a wrecking crew, not a government

Quote:

The fear, loathing and demagoguery unleashed on Parliament Hill last week could create a dangerous constitutional precedent and cripple a necessary evolution in Canadian parliamentary democracy.

The nationwide hysteria whipped up by that fear, loathing and demagoguery may be dampened by the prorogation of Parliament until the end of January.

But at what price? An Ipsos Reid poll found that it left 75 per cent of Canadians "truly scared" for the future of their country. And a political scientist warns it gives future prime ministers the right to escape defeat on non-confidence motions simply by shutting down Parliament and locking its doors.

"Parliamentary democracy as it has been practised in Canada has been compromised," University of Toronto political scientist Nelson Wiseman says. "The precedent established means that under no conditions will the Governor General ever deny a prorogation to sitting prime ministers, no matter what the circumstances."

This bozo the klown in Ottawa and his perogie eaters should be rode out of town on a rail at high noon.

Sun, 2008-12-14 00:31

#16

Webgear

Fidel, I think the provinces/cities should go on their separate ways. The empire is dead, start new countries and city states from the ashes of Canada.

Sun, 2008-12-14 00:39

#17

Fidel

webgear wrote:
Fidel, I think the provinces/cities should go on their separate ways. The empire is dead, start new countries and city states from the ashes of Canada

What empire? Canada is a northern colony, a vast respository of natural wealth and resources for corporate America to raid at will. The real deal wikings are in the U.S., webgear, and dictating our national energy policy to Canadians. You see, our little piece of moose pasture is really very valuable, and our bribed hirelings in the two old line parties really do serve a purpose other than the usual low level colonial administrative duties they perform.

Sun, 2008-12-14 00:55

#18

old_bolshie

Quote:
Fidel, I think the provinces/cities should go on their separate ways. The empire is dead, start new countries and city states from the ashes of Canada.

LMAO!!!!

Sun, 2008-12-14 01:06

#19

Fidel

This thread has real laff out loud potential with ol' bullshie around

Sun, 2008-12-14 01:09

#20

Webgear

Why not? Countless empires, countries and city states have collapsed over the millennia, this has brought renewal to new civilizations, new growth to the world.

Canada will cease to exist some time in the future.

Sun, 2008-12-14 01:36

#21

Fidel

Canada ceased to exist decades ago. What's your hurry?

Mon, 2008-12-15 18:08

#22

Brian White

The system makes it appear as if there are no liberals or ndp supporters in alberta and no conservatives in many big eastern cities. This gives the majority opinion in those regions carte blanche. That sameness over big regions means that dissenting voices are unheard in those regions. Thats a big first step to balkinization. Harper has used it to whip up hatred towards quebec in HIS alberta. If there was pro rep, people could rally around political voices of reason from alberta. But in fptp there are NOpolitical voices of reason in that province. How many votes did the combined opposition get in alberta? 30%, 40%? More? Having a giant silenced minority like that lends itself to balkanization. And people in quebec will respond to harper in kind. And he will use that as an excuse for more hatred. This can happen quite fast.

Pro rep would slow the process because more diverse voices are heard and the one leader one voice types like harper have a much harder time under those conditions.

Brian

CMOT Dibbler wrote:

What Bakinization!? We don't live in Croatia for fuck sake! God but people can be idiots.

-------------------------

Takes more than combat gear to make a man Takes more than license for a gun Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can A gentleman will walk but never run -Sting, an englishman in new york

Mon, 2008-12-15 21:46

#23

Mojoroad1

Cause: Harper

Symptoms: Intentionally pitting east against west, ROC against Quebec, total disregard for Canadian democracy... manufacturing a constitutional and unity crisis on order to save skin.

Solution: Coalition government to get rid of the evil bastard.

Mon, 2008-12-15 22:16

#24

Brian White

Thats the short term solution and I hope it happens!

Long term we should look to pro rep to ensure that votes for party candidates produce party seats a bit more reliably than first past the post. first past the post is skewed badly towards partys with strong regional bases. (and screws both the ndp and greens)

That prevents conservative majority government on 40% of the vote (and liberal too) and the ndp would often be in power as part of a coalition. It also prevents clean sweeps for the bloq in quebec and the cons in alberta. will

Mojoroad1 wrote:

Cause: Harper

Symptoms: Intentionally pitting east against west, ROC against Quebec, total disregard for Canadian democracy... manufacturing a constitutional and unity crisis on order to save skin.

Solution: Coalition government to get rid of the evil bastard.

Mon, 2008-12-15 22:29

#25

Webgear

Fidel wrote:

Canada ceased to exist decades ago. What's your hurry?

I am waiting to become a Hersir, with a few hundred acres, a small Aett and a small stone and timber castle.

Mon, 2008-12-15 22:50

#26

Fidel

Webgear wrote:
Fidel wrote:

Canada ceased to exist decades ago. What's your hurry?

I am waiting to become a Hersir, with a few hundred acres, a small Aett and a small stone and timber castle.

They say it's okay to dream about castles as long as you don't move into one. Because then we've got problems eh.

Thu, 2008-12-18 03:54

#27

gram swaraj

Brian White wrote:

The system makes it appear as if there are no liberals or ndp supporters in alberta and no conservatives in many big eastern cities. This gives the majority opinion in those regions carte blanche. That sameness over big regions means that dissenting voices are unheard in those regions. Thats a big first step to balkinization. Harper has used it to whip up hatred towards quebec in HIS alberta. If there was pro rep, people could rally around political voices of reason from alberta. But in fptp there are NOpolitical voices of reason in that province. How many votes did the combined opposition get in alberta? 30%, 40%? More? Having a giant silenced minority like that lends itself to balkanization. And people in quebec will respond to harper in kind. And he will use that as an excuse for more hatred. This can happen quite fast. Pro rep would slow the process because more diverse voices are heard and the one leader one voice types like harper have a much harder time under those conditions.

Bingo, Brian White. The vote in Alberta might be even more skewed because a lot of anti-con voters may not bother to vote since they know the Con in the riding will win. But this can work both ways, Con voters may not feel like they have to get out to vote either. PropRep therefore, may improve voter turnout.

Absolutely right how the current system makes regions look homogenous, and then it's easier to whip up animosities. Paint two regions with dumbed-down broad brush strokes (that's what you get for arts cuts), and then caricaturize these two regions and pit them against each other. Harper = demagogue.

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Thu, 2008-12-18 04:00

#28

gram swaraj

Brian White wrote:

Long term we should look to pro rep to ensure that votes for party candidates produce party seats a bit more reliably than first past the post. first past the post is skewed badly towards partys with strong regional bases. (and screws both the ndp and greens)

What I really hate is fptp pits the NDP against the Greens. Seriously, these two parties should be working together, not against each other. That would be much more the case if we had a more democratic system. Bring on proportional representation.

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Thu, 2008-12-18 04:13

#29

gram swaraj

I think the Liberal Party is currently walking a tight rope with no net below
them. If they enter into the proposed coalition, they risk losing their
right-leaning base, and if they prop up Harper's Reformatories, they risk losing
their left-leaning base. There is the potential for them to lose big time in the
next election whenever it comes, and for them to get ripped into two bloody
halves, even before an election (this possibility was blatant under Dion, but
they now have, at minimum, a reprieve with Iggy at the helm.)

What the Liberals must do now, to save themselves - and perhaps the country -
is:

1) first things first, accept or reject the budget, but make very clear that
their choice is based on how well the budget addresses the immediate
(capitalist) economic crisis

2) then, whether they are in a coalition or supporting a minority Con
government, the Liberals must establish a Royal Commission on
Proportional Representation, that would complement citizens' assemblies

3) if there's an election, there'd damn better be a bona fide Lib-NDP coalition not
relying on Bloc support. Maybe even some pre-election agreements to not run
candidates in the strongholds of the other party

It's time for the Liberals to seriously bring proportional representation to
the table. I don't love the Libs, but they're better than a Con majority. Balkanization is denying the Libs of seats in the west and Quebec.

I've made numerous leaps of logic, for which I apologize, but this is what I
see developing.

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Thu, 2008-12-18 05:04

#30

Policywonk

gram swaraj wrote:

I think the Liberal Party is currently walking a tight rope with no net below
them. If they enter into the proposed coalition, they risk losing their
right-leaning base, and if they prop up Harper's Reformatories, they risk losing
their left-leaning base. There is the potential for them to lose big time in the
next election whenever it comes, and for them to get ripped into two bloody
halves, even before an election (this possibility was blatant under Dion, but
they now have, at minimum, a reprieve with Iggy at the helm.)

I think you mean at maximum. Although I think that at maximum they may be seen as the only viable alternative to the Conservatives to form government, which wouldn't bode well for the other parties, possibly including the Cloc.

gram swaraj wrote:

What the Liberals must do now, to save themselves - and perhaps the country -
is:

1) first things first, accept or reject the budget, but make very clear that
their choice is based on how well the budget addresses the immediate
(capitalist) economic crisis

There is also a less apparently immediate but no less serious environmental crisis.

gram swaraj wrote:

2) then, whether they are in a coalition or supporting a minority Con
government, the Liberals must establish a Royal Commission on
Proportional Representation, that would complement citizens' assemblies

The Liberals cannot establish a Royal Commission on anything unless they are in government. In any case I doubt it would enable Proportional Representation any faster than other means, even in combination with other means.

gram swaraj wrote:

3) if there's an election, there'd damn better be a bona fide Lib-NDP coalition not
relying on Bloc support. Maybe even some pre-election agreements to not run
candidates in the strongholds of the other party

The hope is that between them the Liberals and the NDP would get more seats than the Conservatives. If they get a majority of the seats between them (not the Liberals alone), that would be much better. I doubt the Liberals would be interested in pre-election agreements in the first place.

gram swaraj wrote:

It's time for the Liberals to seriously bring proportional representation to
the table. I don't love the Libs, but they're better than a Con majority. Balkanization is denying the Libs of seats in the west and Quebec.

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Regionalization of the vote, with the seat count amplified by FPTP tends to deny the Liberals seats in the west. Balkanization is the actual fragmentation of a country or region, which may be good or bad, violent or non-violent (Norway for example). PR would probably be good for the country, assuming the system was properly designed.

Sun, 2021-11-28 21:34

#31

jfb

Thu, 2008-12-18 14:40

#32

Uncle John

More like a Transylvanian Count Dracula than a prince. The question is, who bit whose neck first?

Thu, 2008-12-18 20:05

#33

George Victor

THe, ah, "discussion" here has convinced me that there is not yet a crisis. Thanks, folks, for removing that bit of worry for now - the plate was overflowing.

Fri, 2008-12-19 00:13

#34

gram swaraj

Well, it is a crisis in waiting, lurking not far below the surface. Harper really unearthed it by portraying his cons as the voice of the west, and by repeatedly using the inflammatory label "separatist."

FPTP exacerbates regional differences.

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Fri, 2008-12-19 00:28

#35

Sven

What would be the long-term negative consequences to the people now living in the country of Canada if Quebec was no longer part of the country?

_________________________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Fri, 2008-12-19 03:49

#36

bagkitty

Sven wrote:

What would be the long-term negative consequences to the people now living in the country of Canada if Quebec was no longer part of the country?

Hmmm, well a Con majority government is the first thing that springs to mind.

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Whom the hive does not cherish it eats.

Fri, 2008-12-19 08:08

#37

George Victor

"Whom the hive does not cherish it eats."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, the busy working females kick out the poor bastard drones at the end of summer.

Fri, 2008-12-19 09:21

#38

Caissa

Canda has been a confederation of regions since the beginning. I don't see it any more so now than it has at any other time since 1867. I think the angst is unwarranted.

Fri, 2008-12-19 11:04

#39

Sven

bagkitty wrote:

Hmmm, well a Con majority government is the first thing that springs to mind.

If Quebec was not part of Canada, then that would necessarily mean a Con majority government for Canada in perpetuity?

____________________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Fri, 2008-12-19 12:37

#40

Caissa

Non!

Fri, 2008-12-19 12:57

#41

bagkitty

Sven wrote:
bagkitty wrote:

Hmmm, well a Con majority government is the first thing that springs to mind.

If Quebec was not part of Canada, then that would necessarily mean a Con majority government for Canada in perpetuity?

I don't think it would be in perpetuity... but it would feel that way. Like I said, it was the first thing that sprang to mind.

Sun, 2008-12-21 23:44

#42

Fidel

Sven wrote:

What would be the long-term negative consequences to the people now living in the country of Canada if Quebec was no longer part of the country?

I suspect that Quebec would end up like Kosovo today, a poverty-stricken fourth world state run by a drug-dealing criminal biker regime, similar to the current Thaci regime of former KLA war criminals and drug trafficking terrorists backed by Warshington since Islamic Gladios were ferreted to the Balkans from Central Asia and used to destablize 1990's Yugoslavia. And our stooges in Ottawa would be among the first western leaders to recognize the breakup of our own country on Warshington's instruction.

Mon, 2008-12-22 00:54

#43

Spectrum

Fidel wrote:

webgear wrote:
Maybe it is time for the Canadian confederation to end.

We dont need to end confederation. Our two old line parties have worked hard over the years toward dangerous decentralization of power. Canada has become a rightwing Libertarian's dream for weakened autonomous provinces and territoritories rich in natural resources and energy for corporate America and whoever to bribe and buy off and plunder with the greatest of ease. Canada isn't even a real country anymore.

I think there is hope once people take the power back from the "Corporate America" and dissolve the entities that they represent. The politicans that support them .

Quote:
The market prices of commodities vary
from day to day and often several times a day. This occurs when there
is no radical difference in the proportion of the supply and the
natural demand. This fact is conclusive proof that our system is
controlled by manipulators and fundamentally wrong. I have sought to
elucidate this problem within this volume and have suggested a plan
which, if adopted, would make the people the master of the world,
instead of the present master—THE MONEY TRUST.

So why not go to changing Canada back to a "resource based economy"(can anyone explain this besides being autonoumous just to provinces, see it applied to the larger perspective) one that uplifts all of it's people. Creates a stronger identity, and then moves back into the world as a much prouder citizen who actually represents all of it's constititutients.

Better then those who push "privatization for profit only." Some how in their perverted sense of fairness all people are being treated equal? Market driven, the power is then given back to the people? Deflation? Never.

Mon, 2008-12-22 01:00

#44

Spectrum

oops double post

Mon, 2008-12-22 02:25

#45

skarredmunkey

The enormous obsession with Stephen Harper in this thread is really quite remarkable. The roots of regionalism - or balkanization - in Canada, are so much more complex. To attribute Canada's entire party system or its regional fragmentation to a pissant prime minister who's been in power for under 3 years, or to the electoral system, or to George W. Bush, is so effing silly that it boggles the mind.

Mon, 2008-12-22 04:33

#46

Brian White

Funny, but the croats at a cheap hotel I stayed at in london england in 92 or 93 never mentioned the gladios. They talked of civil war with milosovic.

And when I worked in germany a few years later, there were yougoslav refugees in the factory, muslims mostly.

Then a few years later, in ireland in a factory, there were muslim refugees there too. One muslem guy from belgrade was forced to serve in the army before he got his parents out to ireland. I saw it for abut 15 years and it seems that one man milosovic caused most of the damage. And there was political resistance in his own land but he had the brute force to kill them off.

People here may not see the similaritys but they are there. Like all good dictators, he did not immediatley send in the troops. He had to gather his power first.

Harper is using exactly the same initial tactics. Why is there no opposition in the conservative party? Thats pretty strange, isn't it?

And he sure ikes strutting about like a peecock in his big army boots.

And now he talks about a coup when it is perfectly normal in a parliamentary democracy to have coalition. Coalition is never a coup. Harper didnt win the election. Your party only wins an election if they have more seats than all the other partys combined.

But somehow the papers insist on printing letters claiming the coup and that harper won. Thats the finest hour of propaganda. And propaganda is crucial to guys like harper taking over.

Canada is in great danger. People have this dopey idea that we are too pure and our system is too strong for this to happen to us. But suspending parliament to prevent certain defeat was allowed. That is playing loose with the rules of democracy. Thats the real coup.

And now the backroom deals and the bribery is taking place in ernest so that harper can continue to cement his power. If canadians had a little more backbone, he would be gone and very quickly too.

If we do not defend parliamentary democracy from guys like harper, he will take it away completely. This is supposedly a left wing forum and yet people are so stuck in the tradition of minority governement and being devided and conquered that they cannot mount a decent response to haprers assault. Many people on the left are all too happy to cede power to him. Aparently that is easier on their minds than sharing power with the liberals.

Mon, 2008-12-22 08:10

#47

Fidel

Brian White wrote:

Funny, but the croats at a cheap hotel I stayed at in london england in 92 or 93 never mentioned the gladios. They talked of civil war with milosovic.

Osamagate Michel Chossudovsky, Ottawa U.

Quote:
Replicating the Iran Contragate Pattern

Throughout the 1990s, the Pakistan Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) was used by the CIA as a go-between -- to channel weapons and Mujahideen mercenaries to the Bosnian Muslim Army in the civil war in Yugoslavia. According to a report of the London based International Media Corporation:

"Reliable sources report that the United States is now [1994] actively participating in the arming and training of the Muslim forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in direct contravention of the United Nations accords. US agencies have been providing weapons made in ... China (PRC), North Korea (DPRK) and Iran. The sources indicated that ... Iran, with the knowledge and agreement of the US Government, supplied the Bosnian forces with a large number of multiple rocket launchers and a large quantity of ammunition. These included 107mm and 122mm rockets from the PRC, and VBR-230 multiple rocket launchers ... made in Iran. ... It was [also] reported that 400 members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (Pasdaran) arrived in Bosnia with a large supply of arms and ammunition. It was alleged that the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had full knowledge of the operation and that the CIA believed that some of the 400 had been detached for future terrorist operations in Western Europe.

During September and October [1994], there has been a stream of "Afghan" Mujahedin ... covertly landed in Ploce, Croatia (South-West of Mostar) from where they have traveled with false papers ... before deploying with the Bosnian Muslim forces in the Kupres, Zenica and Banja Luka areas. These forces have recently [late 1994] experienced a significant degree of military success. They have, according to sources in Sarajevo, been aided by the UNPROFOR Bangladesh battalion, which took over from a French battalion early in September [1994].

The Mujahedin landing at Ploce are reported to have been accompanied by US Special Forces equipped with high-tech communications equipment, ... The sources said that the mission of the US troops was to establish a command, control, communications and intelligence network to coordinate and support Bosnian Muslim offensives -- in concert with Mujahideen and Bosnian Croat forces -- in Kupres, Zenica and Banja Luka. Some offensives have recently been conducted from within the UN-established safe-havens in the Zenica and Banja Luka regions.

Brian White wrote:
But somehow the papers insist on printing letters claiming the coup and that harper won. Thats the finest hour of propaganda. And propaganda is crucial to guys like harper taking over. . . And now the backroom deals and the bribery is taking place in ernest so that harper can continue to cement his power. If canadians had a little more backbone, he would be gone and very quickly too.

There should be protests in the streets, like the CIA's "colour revolutions" Canadians are docile. We wouldnt say shit if we were up to our necks in it.

Mon, 2008-12-22 15:09

#48

Brian White

And? Who supplied the croats and serbs? It was a 3 sided religous war too, remember?

And why were there masses of refugees all across europe? People did not just volunteer to leave they were running for their lives.

I may not be a uni prof but I worked with refugees from there in 2 countrys and had contact with them in another. And I had never had contact with anyone from the former yougoslavia before. Milosovic took over the army, remember? Pretty big army too.

He was the personality that caused much of that damage, by inflaming sectarian hatred.. The rest was reaction to what he did. We got to watch on almost live tv as they loaded a couple of thousand of young boys onto trucks never to be seen again. Remember that? in a city under un protection too. I do not care if they were muslem, (why do you?) they were people and they didnt deserve to end up in a hole in the ground.

And it was no secret at the time that a multitude of nations were supplying the bosnians with arms. It was a humanitarian thing. The UN sure didn't help them.

What did you want people to do? "And the entertainment today is unarmed civilians versus soldiers"?

When I was in Germany there were old bosnian ladys begging on the streets in the winter. And that was before it was even officially a civil war. Ok your link, below, 400 against the yougoslav army? Against almost 200,000? Nothing. At least they tried.

In europe we got to watch genocide on tv in a neighbouring country. People were furious with our politicians and with Clinton for being so slow to clean up the mess. Thats how I remember it. I was not "there" but I was a hell of a lot closer than some prof in ontario. If you look at history, you will see larger than life personalitys all over the place and nearly always they corespond to carnage. Harper is one of those larger than life personalitys. for some reason the GG allowed him to continue on. We should demand that he go.

Fidel wrote:
Brian White wrote:

Funny, but the croats at a cheap hotel I stayed at in london england in 92 or 93 never mentioned the gladios. They talked of civil war with milosovic.

Osamagate Michel Chossudovsky, Ottawa U.

Quote:
Replicating the Iran Contragate Pattern

Throughout the 1990s, the Pakistan Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) was used by the CIA as a go-between -- to channel weapons and Mujahideen mercenaries to the Bosnian Muslim Army in the civil war in Yugoslavia. According to a report of the London based International Media Corporation:

"Reliable sources report that the United States is now [1994] actively participating in the arming and training of the Muslim forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in direct contravention of the United Nations accords. US agencies have been providing weapons made in ... China (PRC), North Korea (DPRK) and Iran. The sources indicated that ... Iran, with the knowledge and agreement of the US Government, supplied the Bosnian forces with a large number of multiple rocket launchers and a large quantity of ammunition. These included 107mm and 122mm rockets from the PRC, and VBR-230 multiple rocket launchers ... made in Iran. ... It was [also] reported that 400 members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (Pasdaran) arrived in Bosnia with a large supply of arms and ammunition. It was alleged that the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had full knowledge of the operation and that the CIA believed that some of the 400 had been detached for future terrorist operations in Western Europe.

During September and October [1994], there has been a stream of "Afghan" Mujahedin ... covertly landed in Ploce, Croatia (South-West of Mostar) from where they have traveled with false papers ... before deploying with the Bosnian Muslim forces in the Kupres, Zenica and Banja Luka areas. These forces have recently [late 1994] experienced a significant degree of military success. They have, according to sources in Sarajevo, been aided by the UNPROFOR Bangladesh battalion, which took over from a French battalion early in September [1994].

The Mujahedin landing at Ploce are reported to have been accompanied by US Special Forces equipped with high-tech communications equipment, ... The sources said that the mission of the US troops was to establish a command, control, communications and intelligence network to coordinate and support Bosnian Muslim offensives -- in concert with Mujahideen and Bosnian Croat forces -- in Kupres, Zenica and Banja Luka. Some offensives have recently been conducted from within the UN-established safe-havens in the Zenica and Banja Luka regions.

Brian White wrote:
But somehow the papers insist on printing letters claiming the coup and that harper won. Thats the finest hour of propaganda. And propaganda is crucial to guys like harper taking over. . . And now the backroom deals and the bribery is taking place in ernest so that harper can continue to cement his power. If canadians had a little more backbone, he would be gone and very quickly too.

There should be protests in the streets, like the CIA's "colour revolutions" Canadians are docile. We wouldnt say shit if we were up to our necks in it.

Mon, 2008-12-22 17:20

#49

Fidel

Brian White wrote:

And? Who supplied the croats and serbs? It was a 3 sided religous war too, remember?

By what I understand, Muslims in Yugoslavia were somewhat Europified and not so "stitrred up" prior to Serbs fleeing Pristina and Kosovo, and as Zbigniew Brzezinski originally referred to Central Asian muslims of the 1980s. The CIA and British SAS supplied weapons from around the world to Islamic Gladios transported to the Balkans from Central Asia, Northern Africa, Iran etc.

Quote:
And why were there masses of refugees all across europe? People did not just volunteer to leave they were running for their lives.

Why else? Destabilization of the Balkans post USSR by way of IMF and Washington consensus, deterioration of economies followed by more IMF austerity. "They took our jobs!" answered with, "What jobs?" Ethnic clashes grew to civil war and fomented by neoliberal economic policies foisted on them by the west. NATO provided the shock therapy(massive bombing of a sovereign nation ie. war crimes) in wiping the slate clean.

Quote:
I may not be a uni prof but I worked with refugees from there in 2 countrys and had contact with them in another.

And Yugoslavia is not the only country to experience an exodus of people after CIA, IMF, and U.S. military interventions. Millions fled Afghanistan after the fall of the PDPA government in Kabul in 1992. Who supplied Islamic Gladios with stinger missiles, rifles, and bullets costing U.S. taxpayers $5 bucks apiece in the 1980's?

Retired Maj-General Lewis Mackenzie had this to say about the KLA:

Quote:

This anti-Serb bias and sympathy for their "victims" was exploited by the Kosovo Liberation Army, (KLA), an internationally recognized terrorist organization at the time when it commenced killing Serbian security personnel in the late 90s. The KLA hired the same North American PR firms employed by the Bosnian government and successfully won the PR war in spite of the fact their organization initiated the armed conflict. No one could ever accuse the Serbs of treating the Kosovar's with kid gloves; however, discrimination in civil service and university hiring procedures is hardly justification for armed resistance with independence and the creation of Greater Albania as a goal.

Canadians should be concerned regarding Kosovo's current leadership. The current Prime Minister Hashim Thaci was the leader of the KLA. He has admitted that the KLA orchestrated the infamous Racak "massacre" dressing their KLA dead in civilian clothes, machine gunning them and dumping them in a ditch and claiming it was a Serbian slaughter of civilians. NATO bought into the ruse and on its 50th birthday looking for a role in the post cold war world the alliance became the KLA's air force and bombed a sovereign nation from the safety of 10,000 ft. No one in NATO was hurt.

His predecessor as Prime Minister was Agim Cheku. He was in command of Croatian Forces in the Medak Pocket where Serb families were burnt alive in their cellars necessitating intervention by Canadian soldiers and he was also in charge in 1995 during Operation Storm when the Croatian Army cowardly shelled and over- ran Canadian peacekeeping positions. For both of those actions Canada called for the indictment of Cheku for war crimes

Tue, 2008-12-23 03:43

#50

Brian White

One problem with your theory is that titos yougoslavia was not really in the soviet block. Tito was a dictator and comunism suited him. When he died the presidency was supposed to rotate but milosovic from serbia proclaimed himself president of yougoslavia and grabbed most of the army and machinery.

And all the others rebelled. Sure the arms dealers saw their oppertunity, but it is not much of a market, it is not a strategic country, and no oil so nobody gave a shit. Public opinion in europe forced the governments to act after 10 years of murder.

Remember how big the army there was. Almost 200,000. And you can check out how well trai ned they were too. and how well armed.

Hitler said "juden rous" milosovic called it ethnic cleansing, Remember? Are you saying that the CIA planted that idea in his mind?

He had free will when he tried to grab more land for his tribe. Europe would have been complicit if they had just given in and taken all the rest of the yougoslavs as refugees. (How many millions of people?)

People go around saying serbs or croats but there was just that one guy causing the bulk of the trouble.

When drinking with the boys in germany way back I talked to a couple who owned a pub. They were serbs and they said (in german) "We are not bad people" .

We should always be careful about labeling people. We all do it. Europe once had an incredible civilizing infulence from the muslems. They brought the decimal system, paper making and al lot of mathematics with them. So there is holy war but most people just try to get on with their lives. There has been in the minds of extremists ever since one god religiions evolved. christianity suffers from it too.

Tue, 2008-12-23 04:47

#51

Fidel

Brian White wrote:

One problem with your theory is that titos yougoslavia was not really in the soviet block. Tito was a dictator and comunism suited him. When he died the presidency was supposed to rotate but milosovic from serbia proclaimed himself president of yougoslavia and grabbed most of the army and machinery.

What about Franjo Tudjman in 1990 Croatia? He fired over 300 women news journalists and news agencies that broadcast news unfavourable to his regime as he purged hundreds of thousands of Croatian Serbs.

Brian White wrote:
And all the others rebelled. Sure the arms dealers saw their oppertunity, but it is not much of a market, it is not a strategic country, and no oil so nobody gave a shit.

Ah! The real purpose of camp Bondsteel is to provide a base of military security for the Albanian-Macedonian-Bulgarian oil pipeline (AMBO). The trans-Balkan pipeline will eventually connect the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea basin, a vast oil reserve with an estimated 50 billion barrels of oil. They can find oil now with satellite technology and by human and tech-based remote sensing techniques before the seismic surveys and before the expensive drilling take place. And you thought the U.S. and NATO and Germany actually gave a shit about Yugoslavs suffering by IMF Yugostroika austerity and Islamic Gladio? tsk tsk, Brian.

Quote:
Hitler said "juden rous" milosovic called it ethnic cleansing, Remember? Are you saying that the CIA planted that idea in his mind?

Milosevic was down with the IMF's neoliberal agenda in the former Yugoslavia. Milosevic was no socialist. And reports say he was winning his trial leading up to being murdered.

In Bosnia-Herzegovina, president Izetbegovic's fascist past was covered up by the west. This was a man whose own ideals for ethnic purity in the region amounted to little more than ein reich, ein volk, ein fuhrer. Izetbegovic's links to al Qa'eda in the 1990s are known about today. His regime rubber stamped bin Laden's passport to the late 1990's. The US military and CIA aided and abetted al Qa'eda in the region during Clinton's reign in order to destabilize and create chaos before NATO's saturation bombing. U.S. Republicans are in there like dirty shirts, too. But the "war on terror" is much more marketable than those two old line parties bickering back and forth like old women about which of them propped up militant Islam around the world right up to the time of 9-11-01. In fact, both cosmetic US governments did with the help of the shadow gov and NATO friends. Ordinary people doing evil to their friends and neighbors for no apparent reason other than "old religious and ethnic tensions" is much more saleable for western PR firms and "Liberal" news media than would Islamic Gladio and western colonialism as usual, don't you think, Brian?

Canada's Balkanization Crisis: causes, symptoms, solutions

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