Sask NDP leadership race - part deux

[quote=greenandwhite]

I think Lingenfelters personal record and that of his record in government will go a long way to ensure that individuals in rural Saskatchewan will look to the NDP as the party they decide best represents them.

Yes, I read Green and White's statement with some amazement. If his or her thinking is at all typical of the Saskatchewan NDP, I suppose it explains a lot. 

I don't take issue with Dwain's efforts in the rural part of the province either.  Not only is it difficult for NDP to win elections when 20 or so seats are out of play, but it simply isn't good social democratic politics.  Rural Saskatchewan has been especially hard hit recently by the massive fluxuations in global grain/fertilizer/inputs/commodity prices.  Dwain's intelligence and long view will go a long way to make us credible in rural Saskatchewan.  I am in total agreement with G & W on that point.  He's probably the strongest candidate the party will find on that front.

More importantly, and perhaps indicative of Dwain's long view - and something that G & W has not pointed out, is the more important task of reaching out to communities the party has never been strong in, i.e. visible minority groups, academics and the like.  Why G & W hasn't raised this I have no idea.

It goes back to my original thought on Dwain - he's probably the best person for the job, notwithstanding a dark horse candidate - but his crew have no idea on how to communicate his message.  Dwain is a very bright fellow.  I'd just like to see him show his skills with a platform launch before I get on board with him.

Hunter, you do not have to be shrewd enough to know that the Saskatchewan party has been gaining in city seats and as a result if the NDP are going to be competitive they will have to run a serious campaign in rural Saskatchewan. Lingenfelter was defeated in 1986 but he with stood the 1982 landslide in rural Saskatchewan. By writing off large areas of Saskatchewan you do no favours for the party but hurt us in the long run. The reason the Saskatchewan Party has done so well is because they hold onto their base and go into areas that the NDP are strong in. Once the NDP lost some of the rural seats in picked up in the 1991 election they never went back to these areas and as a result they quickly became difficult seats for the NDP to win and the party which used to have strong rural constituencies are now non-existant.

Non sequitur, I have not raised any issues on the new groups that Link might target as I believe it was either yourself or Malcolm who already pointed out that Link has been meeting with academics and other groups.

     Let's see...hmmm...one man (Lingenfelter) has been an exec with an oil company and the other (Wall) couldn't sell country music in Saskatchewan.  Hmmm.  Who would you say was the one best equipped to lead the province in tough times?  One was part of the administration which almost bankrupted the province and the other was part of the team that solved the previous crisis.  Hmmm.  And oddly, the social democrat, the one with the conscience is willing to come over to the public sector while the I, me, mine, conservative has spent a lifetime milking the public system.

     Not?

I think Hunter does raise a fair point.  What exactly is Dwain proposing in order to win back rural Saskatchewan?  Having lunch meetings is important in the sense of connecting with existing and past members, but it really doesn't address the bigger problems our movement has in those areas.

It again goes back to the big point, namely why is Dwain running?  I am convinced that he is the most qualified of the rumoured bunch, but his team isn't saying anything other than "we can win".  Well, Romanow won rural SK for one election and then fell flat.  What is Dwain proposing that will lead to longer term relevance in rural Saskatchewan, outside of meetings?  Surely a man with that level of intelligence and political savvy has some really good ideas.

Not trying to be rude, but the leader of the party should provide some political direction, not just management of the party apparatus.

Malcolm wrote:

We didn't win the seat in 1986. Or in 1991.

But guess what happened in 1995?

And guess what happened in 1999, 2003 and 2007? Your point?

In fairness GW, you haven't mentioned the importance of organizing in Regina, Stoon, PA or MJ in the last 2 threads.  Nobody has accused you of having nothing to contribute.

I never mentioned it because I thought it was kind of obvious that when I said the party needs to organize in all constituencies that included Regina, Saskatoon, Prince Albert and Moose Jaw.

Hunter my statement is far from ridiculous. I think having an individual who goes through the same thing as every othe farmer does gives him a connection to rural Saskatchewan that others do not have. Though how do you say Lingenfelter has a strong record on rural Saskatchewan but it will not help?

Though I am glad you have seemed to move away from your suggestion of ignorining rural Saskatchewan.

I didn't say Lingenfelter has a strong record in rural Sask.

I said he has a strong record but it is not viewed strongly in rural Sask.

Bernie Wiens, Clay Serby and Maynard Sonntag are farmers too. Pat Atkinson has a farming background. How many farmers do you think, in terms of voting, connect with them?

Not many. 

Having an effective organization is half the battle.  GW is bang on in that respect.  We need to have 58 strong constituency associations.

That being said, there is not one single social democratic party in the northern hemisphere that has a strong base in rural areas (indigenous regions notwithstanding).  Surely this cannot be chalked up to universally poor organization in rural/agrarian areas.  What policies should the SK NDP be proposing in order to achieve this unique and herculean task GW?

Okay G&W, you are clearly working for Lingenfelter, so, by the authority of Rabble, Saskatchewan Section, I hereby appoint you Link's rural campaign manager.

Now, that said, here are few questions you need to answer:

1. If Link truly understands, connects and wants to represent rural Sask, the logical conclusion to this statement is that he will seek a rural nomination. So, if this is the case, where do you think he should seek a rural nomination?

2. You say Link advocates for rural organizations. So, which ones? Please expand.

3. You say with Link as leader the NDP has the potential to be competitive in a number of rural seats in the next election. Okay, then, as Link's rural campaign manager which specific seats are you talking about?

I am of course assuming that it won't take you long to answer these questions with your already vast knowledge and experience in rural Sask, the party, etc. 

In terms of pure gusto, if Link were to announce that he was running in a rural seat, it might actually create some excitement in this boring contest.  Especially if Dwain is making rural party renewal a (much needed) priority.

On the point of policy, I'm not suggesting that Dwain should put forth a 100 page document at this stage in the contest.  But... there should be at least a skeletal approach to where he wants Saskatchewan to be under a Lingenfelter government.  Leadership means more than managerial competence in the form of selling party memberships.

Even one broad idea.  Is that asking too much?

Hunter, I don't need to awnser any of your questions as clearly you are against the NDP and rural Saskatchewan. What your ideas be for rural Saskatchewan other then to ignore it? Where is the proof I am working for Lingenfelter? I am in no way working for him. I stated I think Link because of his rural background and being a farmer could connect with rural Saskatchewan better then an individual who has only lived in urban Saskatchewan. That is not a knock against anybody but simply what I view as the truth. The same would apply to Nettie Wiebe given her rural background she also would have an advantage in connecting with rural Saskatchewan. I simply do not understand the hostility you have towards rural Saskatchewan and the defeatist attitude you have towards the NDP having success in organizing or being competitive in rural areas. I am not sure why this is a negative or even being debated.

I think many former members that are now rejoining are doing so because nobody in the past asked them rejoin so no I don't think thats putting the cart before the horse. Link has promised that if he is elected Leader then the party will hold policy meetings in every region of the province. I certainly agree in order to attract some new members policy ideas will be an important factor.

Non sequitur, I think if you look at his website you can easily find broad ideas that will as the campaign continues turn into these broad themes into some concrete policies but I think you have to take into account is the pledge by Link to hold policy consultation forums across the province to allow individuals to discuss, debate and create policy ideas from the grassroots. I certainly agree policy ideas are needed from all leadership candidates and I expect Link to come out with his own. However, I do believe that members should play a key role in deciding the policy of the party.

non sequitur wrote:

In terms of pure gusto, if Link were to announce that he was running in a rural seat, it might actually create some excitement in this boring contest.

Yes, NS, but it would end up generating much more excitement for the Sask Party if Link then proceeded to lose this seat in a by-election or general election.

GW,

I think Hunter is trying to suggest that your sole fascination with memberships, whilst important, is not what leads to electoral success - on its own.

Excitement around politics takes shape when a leader takes bold positions and buttresses same with sound communication.  Barack Obama didn't develop his machine merely by meeting with people.  He took a gutsy stand - opposing the war in Iraq.  That position led young people to gravitate towards him.

Meetings are great - but in order to excite people, Dwain must answer why he is running for leader.  Suggesting that he is running to stop Brad Wall is essentially like saying "I'm running for the NDP because I'm a New Democrat".  Circular reasoning.

Dwain needs at least one issue to excite people. 

BTW, changing gears on this discussion - a rumour is now circulating that Deb Higgins might not be interested in running.  Does this mean and official coronation?

The last thing the party needs is a coronation. A competitive leadership race is the best way to generate memberships, interest and media.

That said, things are not looking good. Link's been out for two months now and not so much as a peep from anyone. I think the fact that no one from our elected caucus has the gumption to take on someone who, although admittedly talented, has been away from politics for ten years and is closing in on 60, says a lot about our current caucus.

I guess the fact that they have known Calvert is leaving for months and still can't organize themselves to make a bid two months after he is gone pretty much shows none of them are up to the job, anyhow.

If what I have heard about Link is true, that he doesn't tolerate complacency, if he does become leader more than a few of the NDP MLAs may soon be shown the door. The ironic thing about it all is some of the caucus members currently supporting Link's leadership bid may be the first to be given their walking papers.

I don't doubt that Link is taking the right approach in rural and his hard work will not go unnoticed. This is a grass roots party and people expected it to be treated as such.

A more grass roots approach was what ensured Calvert's victory in the leadership in 2001 and his electoral victory in 2003. In this election the party made several gains in rural seats and although it did not win, it was very competiitve in Lloydminster, Humboldt, Weyburn and Carrot River Valley. It also won back North Battleford and Sask Rivers and retained Meadow Lake and Yorkton by larger margins than in 1999.

However, as we all know, aside from North Battelford, these marginal gains all slipped back in 2007.

I don't doubt the party has done a poor job in terms of reaching out to rural constituencies and candidate recruitment. However, I am just not sure what the NDP could have done differently in terms of rural policy, as a government, without being completely irresponsible.

It also annoys me to see the Sask Party on a daily basis doing nothing for livestock producers and no one out there says a word. Likewise, it is almost laughable that the Sask Party has completely broken all of their promises on education property tax reductions and yet SARM continues to praise them as a great government.

I am even further perplexed why people in rural vote in the likes of Ritz, Anderson, Vellacott, Breitkreuz, Lukiwski, et al, who show no respect for the democratic process and then turn their backs on the likes of Nettie Wiebe who would have been a damn great MP and brings more cred on rural issues than all of those guys put together.

Anyhow, in terms of Link, I think he is motivated by one thing and one thing only and that is the fact that he can make Sask history by beating Wall in 2011 and in the process denying the Sask Party a second term - possibly even destroying this party once and for all.

And I don't doubt he is not right. If we are organized, focused and motivated in the next election, we should be able to whip the Saskies at most turns as they are not even a real political party, as far as I am concerned, built around this phoney image of Wall.

Wall can laugh now all he wants but you can bet those guys are dreading facing Link in the Leg.

That said, I know we will get back into government sooner or later but I would just like to see us have more social democratic goals once we get there next time around. Governing for its own sake is vacuous, particularly if you are calling yourself a social democratic party.

Fair enough Malcolm, I do agree with you that what is today may soon change tomorrow and New Democrats are as guilty as any other political party for becoming complacent and relying too much on "safe" NDP seats in the cities.

However, that said, I don't think we have to worry about the provincial Libs making a comeback anytime soon. They couldn't even organize themselves to send out an email advising the media that they had cancelled their conveniton this fall. Further, they have a no name leader who will be a greater failure than Karwacki could ever be, even on his worst day. Even if the provincial Libs wanted to, they will not be able to run anything close to a provincial or even a real campaign in 2011.

The challenge for the NDP will be putting forward a social democratic platform but also realizing there will be a certain percentage of Liberal voters who will be looking for a home but can't stomach the Sask Party.

As a matter of fact, I think we would be wise to be talking to some of their formal federal and provincial candidates as they have, from time to time run strong candidates, that are left of centre, but simply could not escape the burden of the Liberal brand.

Well, it's Jan. 1 and I say if no other contender is out by the 15th it's, unfortunately, going to be a coronation for Link.

I agree that June is a long way off and that it is still very possible that someone could announce any time in the next few months and still win the thing.

As well, it is not like the Link team has done anything that amazing and they are more than beatable. However, if someone is serious I just can't understand why they would not have declared by the end of this month. If they are not organized and ready by the end of the month, I am not sure if they are ever going to be and it is definitely not a job you should apply for unless you are 100 per cent serious.

It is good for any political party to rejuvenate.  It would be great if a leadership contest produced new ideas and large numbers of young members.  

 However, I don't think for a minute that it is impossible for the Saskatchewan Party to lose the next election.  It is a long time until that election and the world (including Saskatchewan) is in an uncertain economic climate.  There are a host of economic scenarios that could lead to major problems for any government, Saskatchewan Party, or otherwise.  Governments defeat themselves far more often than by a new party rejuvenated with new ideas.  

It is also difficult for any government to stay in power for 15 years or more in Saskatchewan (or many other provinces as well - Alberta is the exception, not the rule) without being ousted with the "change" strategy of an opposing party.  It is not easy to counter that sort of strategy (I know, from experience, both using it and having it used against my candidate/party). Whatever strategy the provincial NDP used in that election to counteract the "change" message, I'm not certain that any better one was available.

I recall the 1986 election.  The party was not rejuvenated with a lot of young members and new ideas at that time.  I remember organizing for the NDP from 1984-1986 in one riding in Saskatoon.  It was not new ideas or a large increase in youth memberships that won that election for the party in that riding.  It was hard work, mainly by long time members of the party.  We conducted a pre-election canvas in Saskatoon (and in other parts of the province - I was not the only person I know who went farm to farm near their home town) in the fall of 1984 and spring of 1985 that in no small part led to the close election of 1986.  If it weren't for the $1 billion bailout of Mulroney in the closing stages of the election, there would have been a one-term Conservative government.  And, after the debacle of 1982, there were few people who thought that Blakeney could lead the NDP back into power in 1986 (he didn't but it was ever so close).