Québec election discussion (Part II)

It was Quebecers who voted for fascists like Duplessis and Mario Dumont - so don't call me a bigot for pointing out an inconvenient fact. One of the first things the PQ did when they took power in 1976 was to erect a statue of Duplessis in front of the National Assembly so that Quebec nationalist could worship Le Chef like a deity.

"Actually it is primarily organised labour and other working-class social movements that are overwhelmingly sovereignist."

I pity them for being so hopelessley misguided. If only they knew who their silly obsession with ethnic nationalism and sovereignty has probably set back the cause of social justice in Quebec back by a generation. Imagine if all the energy wasted on Quebec nationalism was all spent instead pushing for anti-poverty initiatives!

Duplessis was several generations ago. In a church-controlled society that is a nasty memory.

Dumont never got a majority - unlike your Mike Harris. I guess I can call Ontarians fascists because they elected that rightwing piece of shit (but I won't).

The struggle against national oppression (such as for labour contracts and the right to work in French) was one of the motors of our powerful labour movement, not a deviation from it.

Stockholm wrote:

We have seen lots of examples of new countries being formed as a result of ethnic nationalism in recent years - Slovakia, all the former parts of the Soviet union etc... and in every single case it did not result in one iota of more progressive government and the poor are every bit as badly as ever. Creating new countries is just a distraction from the cause of social justice.  If I want an independent Quebec i can vote PQ and get a referendum some day - why waste my time with Quebec Solidaire?

Let's face it, if Quebec ever became independent - it would almost certainly elect an ADQ style centre-right government and NOTHING will change except for maybe having Maurice Duplessis appear on the money instead of the Queen and few jobs in the highest ranks of the civil service for the Outremont crowd.

I would have a lot more respect for Quebec Solidaire if they would denounce the whole soveerignty movement as a petty bourgeois obsession.

 Well..... Independence has given better government freer of oppressive foreign rule to Lithania, Latvia, Estonia, Timor-Leste (ended genocide), etc etc. And Slovenia is a hell of a lot better off than they were as part of Yugoslavia. 

Quebec continues to save Canada from a permanent Conservative majority, time and time again. Even the ADQ failed in almsot every outing. The BQ is the most effective progressive force in parliament. There's no question that Quebec is the most progressive part of Canada. Certainly no evidence that Quebec would elect an ADQ-style government, since the ADQ was just destroyed. 

 The sovereigntist movement is far from "ethnic nationalist" -- it's more multi (or if you insist, inter) cultural than most Canada-wide parties (including the NDP). I think the whole "our nationalism is civic, their nationalism is ethnic" is the typical excuse used by majorities to screw over minorities for ages. Maybe that's why people like Ignatieff cling to "ethnic nationalism bad, civic nationalism good" BS. 

Yes, I think the BQ has been far more effective in holding back Harper than the NDP or the Liberal gang. And come on, "thanks to Quebec" that Mulroney got a majority? Alberta gets a pass now? BC does? Saskatchewan does? The many people who backed Mulroney in Ontario do? An entire province is tarred forever in your eyes by the votes of less than half of its people in a screwed-up FPTP system? Meanwhile, Ontario gets a pass for Mike Harris? 

"Ethnic nationalism" is at a low because what the PQ practices is no longer ethnic nationalism, it's as civic as Canadian nationalism, which is hardly as pure as the driven snow. Honestly dude, it's posts like yours that make me want to support the efforts by some in Quebec to get out of Canada. If that attitude sums up Canadian nationalism (or should I say Ontario nationalism?), better off outside Canada. 

Accidental re-post.

Ze wrote:

Quebec continues to save Canada from a permanent Conservative majority, time and time again. Even the ADQ failed in almsot every outing. The BQ is the most effective progressive force in parliament. There's no question that Quebec is the most progressive part of Canada. Certainly no evidence that Quebec would elect an ADQ-style government, since the ADQ was just destroyed.

 The sovereigntist movement is far from "ethnic nationalist" -- it's
more multi (or if you insist, inter) cultural than most Canada-wide
parties (including the NDP). I think the whole "our nationalism is
civic, their nationalism is ethnic" is the typical excuse used by
majorities to screw over minorities for ages. Maybe that's why people
like Ignatieff cling to "ethnic nationalism bad, civic nationalism
good" BS.

The ADQ was the official opposition in the previous provincial election leading to a minority government.  That is the kind of failure the Ontario New Democratic Party dreams of at night. And the federal NDP has not the record of "support the bourgeois parties' minority government now, campaign on your platform later" of the Bloc Quebecois.  The NDP has almost always tried to make Parliament and the country) work to the best of their ability.

Meanwhile, the PQ worries about how few francophones are left on the island of Montreal.  Not French-speakers, since their numbers continue to rise. It's just that the wrong types are speaking French.

"And come on, "thanks to Quebec" that Mulroney got a majority? Alberta
gets a pass now? BC does? Saskatchewan does? The many people who backed
Mulroney in Ontario do? An entire province is tarred forever in your
eyes by the votes of less than half of its people in a screwed-up FPTP
system?"

YOu might want to check your electoral history before you post totally false stuff like this. FYI: in the 1988 election, the Tories suffered massive losses in every province EXCEPT Quebec and Alberta. In BC the NDP elected 19 NDPers that year, 1 Liberal and 12 Tories. Saskatchewan was a bloodbath for the Tories that year as the NDP won 10 seats compared to just 4 Tories. Ontario was a split but the NDP and Liberals combined had more seats than the Tories. While it is true that Alberta elected Tories in all but one seat - that only added up to 25 Tories that year. In comparison, Quebecers were so wildly enthusiastic about free trade with the US and with the whole neo-con economic agenda that the Tories swept 62 out of 75 seats in Quebec and won over 50% of the vote. ALL the Quebec elites thought that totla intergration with the US would be the best thing since sliced bread. Even Parizeau who was then leader of the PQ hailed free trade as a great thing because it would help WEAKEN Canada - and let's face it a lot of PQ leaders have had a lifelong love affair with all things American (remember Lucien Bouchard and his unilingually anglophone wife from California who sent his kids to an all English private school).

I have yet to hear anyone explain how it is that if Quebec is sooo "progressive" they went ahead and sentenced Canada to being economically intergated with the US and all the consequences that brings with it...anbd let's not forget the great fondness that Quebecers seem to have for two-tiered health care and making people pay out of their own pockets to see doctors. In the rest of Canada this is seen as a "third rail" of politics, but in Quebec people seem to thinki it woulod be just great to destroy the public health care system by allowing two-tiered health care.

Pay no attention to Stock when he starts hallucinating about Québec, lagatta. It's a weird combination of envy and something else which medical science is still struggling to name, let alone treat and cure.

"Anglophobes"?? Is that anything like "reverse racism"?

Ze wrote:

As for the ADQ success: an unbroken string of failures, followed by one successful breakthrough, followed by almost total destruction. I'm surprised anyone in the Ontario NDP would want that record.

Sounds like the record they have.

toddschneider's "historical inquiry"

More like Hysterical Enquirer.