Au Saguenay, des jeunes anglophones installés dans la région ont été la cible d'insultes et d'actes de vandalisme.
Le groupe d'adolescents séjourne dans la région depuis octobre dernier dans le cadre du programme Katimavik.
Des oeufs sont lancés régulièrement contre leur résidence. Un
projectile a même fracassé la fenêtre de leur maison d'accueil il y a
trois semaines.
the closest high school near me is so "multiethnic" that the fights among teenagers seem far more arcane. The son of a Chilean friend got in a fight with some Salvadoreans, who said Chileans were "snobs". My friend is a bit concerned, as there are fare more Salvadorean kids than Chileans at the school.
That's pretty crazy I wouldn't expect that. They must be pretty scared.
And I've heard that about Chileans before ( I know it's not true). I've also heard it about Argentinians.
Assaults against federalists, physical and emotional, are common in this province; I was subject to one. Federalists believe in the rule of law, and freedom of assembly, so the opposite is not the case.
What else is common is police inaction against the perpetrators; I was subject to that as well.
Come the revolution, it will be every non-thug for himself.
I think that if I was that Katimavik leader I would really want to use the experience as a 'teachable moment'.
Among all the other issues bound up in this is the question of why this particular event was newsworthy at this particular moment. I think that any Katimavik group (or similar program) has interesting interactions with their host communities. Not many make the news.
"Come the revolution, it will be every non-thug for himself."
I don't think that your analysis really does much except paint anyone but "Federalists"as thugs. You also seem to be equating Federalist with Anglophone and Everyone Else with French.
Not all federalists are anglophones, but most anglophones are federalists.
Not all thugs are "sovereignist", and not all sovereignists are thugs.
In any case, we non-thugs can't count on the law, to maintain order.
Why is this news? Because Katimavik has been going on for decades, and incidents like this are rare. Like the Katimaviker in the story said, these thugs do not represent the majority feeling. Nor does sovereignty, for that matter.
Well, I think your constant angryphobe harping is rather thuggish, actually. As is the racist shit about how wonderfully peaceful anglos are.
I don't want anyone to get beat up (duh!) but I do kind of wonder that the "federalists" in question were doing. I've certainly encountered thuggish federalists of the Galganovite variety. Of course they are for the "rule of law" when that means majority-nation domination.
And it is simply not true that assaults on federalists (or anglophones, unless they are also people of colour, gay etc, just like francophone or allophone people of colour or lgbt people) are common in Québec. What is common is people like you always referring to Québec as "this province", and not by its name, as if we were dirty or something.
You really shouldn't stereotype the political views of anglophones - many are progressive and, while not necessarily sovereignist, believe in the right to national self-determination. You'd be surprised how many happily work in the labour movement, the women's movement and other progressive social movements here. And wouldn't live anywhere else in North America.
I notice that "toddschneider" has taken for granted the shock title given by TVA to that piece of news, viz. that these youths were assaulted because they spoke English.
We don't know that, actually. The dynamics of respect or lack thereof between two groups - across political lines in most cases - are complex enough that I seriously doubt the summary explanation offered by this title.
I live in an area of Montreal (Plateau Mont-Royal) where people coming out of bars or restarants late at night can be quite a nuisance. Anglophones are a minority here, but when a group of late night partiers is especially loud and boisterous, it so happens that three times out of four, it is in English that those affluent white boys wake me and the neighbourhood up.
If I were to let loose with a bucket of water, would it be because they speak English? I am sure "toddschneider" would think so.
Is it because they are McGill students, often from out of Québec, whose housing is paid for by mum and dad? I know exactly the kind of young men you mean. They also make loud, rude comments about women.
Of course francophones (and others) can be just as obnoxious and sexist, but that does bring to mind a certain social milieu that really is at odds with the "locals". Oh, anglophones who've lived and worked in the Plateau/Mile-End area for years hate those snotty rich kids too, and are embarrassed by them.
Coincidentally, a francophone resident of the Plateau wrote a dismissive piece recently republished in Maissonneuve magazine, about trendy anglophones from outside Quebec moving in to that painfully hip area, and not learning French for years, if at all. As residents of Canada it's their right, but it's also their loss. Boorishness comes in all languages.
While all incidents can have multiple interpretation, my first reflex is to side with the victims. And of course, I would do the same if the perpetrators were anglophones. Bigotry comes in all cultures.
Putting aside the facile acceptance of a national self-determination argument, at no point did I say that anglo = federalist = regressive, nor would I. Reactionism comes in all tendencies.
But I would argue that groups like the Jeunes Patriotes (sic) and their ilk, are given a very large leash, and few dogcatchers to worry about. They even routinely send out advance notice of their presence, to which the cops routinely yawn. Whereas that hasn't happened on the federalist side, from my intimate knowledge of my province, *since* the angryphone era.
For the record, I am an "angryphobe" (sic) as well. Lose your temper, lose the argument.
Well, I think your constant angryphobe harping is rather thuggish, actually. As is the racist shit about how wonderfully peaceful anglos are. I don't want anyone to get beat up (duh!) but I do kind of wonder that the "federalists" in question were doing.
The "federalists" in question were volunteering in the community as part of the Katimavik program.
According to the article, some of the vandalism occured while they were at home, in the Katimavik house. I don't think the analogy to drunk rich McGill a**holes is a valid one. I know many friends that have gone through a Katimatvik stint and have a friend currently serving as a house leader and substance abuse or going out to the bars is not tolerated. I find it hard to believe that these kids could have been provoking this. Any provocation they did probably would not have lasted more than a day.
Annoying rich university students can probably be aholes indefinitely and still not get any of their money cut off.
Les Jeunes Patriotes are fascist thugs. I wouldn't tussle with them unless I was with a demonstration with a VERY strong and solid service d'ordre. We did manage to keep them out of the May Day demo.
We have a friend from France, a really cool alternative type, who was very enthusiastic about the 'pas de Trudeau dans Papineau' demos. Now, I have nothing but the utmost contempt for Justin Trudeau, the proverbial useless rich boy (fils-à-papa) who reeks of entitlement, and was sad about the narrow loss of Vivian Barbot, who had been a very good MP for the riding, but my friend from France was really clueless about who les Jeunes Patriotes are - so we were explaining that they were more like Le Pen's young goons than anything left-anti-imperialist...
Well, I suppose it is someone's "right" to move here and not learn French (this is about educated, young people, not someone's peasant grandmother who only speaks a rural dialect of her own native language) but it is hubris, and how on earth to they expect to find work or service. A francophone in Toronto who spoke no English sure wouldn't.
I'm concerned that there's a lot of jumping to conclusions in this thread based on a news article that contains practically no facts or explanations of any significance.
Ghislaine, I was not talking about the Katimavik kids, but to todd's think about saintly "federalists" (his term):
quote: "Assaults against federalists, physical and emotional, are common in this province; I was subject to one. Federalists believe in the rule of law, and freedom of assembly, so the opposite is not the case".
I'd have no reason to assume anything about the ideology or political orientation of Katimavik participants. Assaults against "federalists" would imply that the people in question were involved in some kind of federalist campaign etc. Katimavik participants think all sorts of things, or nothing in particular.
Though trying to keep young adults from going to bars when they are in Québec and come from some benighted English-Canadian province that allows 18 year olds to join the army but not have a beer (as any place in the Western world other than the odd puritans in the US and English-Canada let them do) is like trying to stop the snow from falling. I highly doubt it would have any effect whatesoever.
And who was talking about substance abuse? The comment about the rich anglo students was about entitled jerkdom, not substance abuse. Unless you feel going out for a few beers on the weekend is substance abuse...
Katimaviktims (their term) are exceptional young people, in that they walk the talk, inarticulate as it may be.
Katimavik may not be explicitly federalist, but it is certainly non-parochial. What sovereignist would get involved in community service in Maple Ridge, BC? And in a bilingual if not multi-lingual setting?
These kids may not have been assaulted because they were federalists. But they were targetted because they were outsiders, even worse, speaking the dreaded Hinglish.
I know several young QuébécoisEs who are more sovereignist than anything else who have taken part in Katimavik. Why on earth wouldn't they leap at the chance to go to BC for a while? Going to BC is very popular here. Good weed for one thing. (It being forbidden is merely another challenge)...
Oh dear, assuming that sovereignists are "parochial". Gilles Duceppe? Amir Khadir? Franchement. Or don't speak anything but French?
Lots of kids stake out territory against other kids who are outsiders (as in the Chilean/Salvadorean example). From the next town - I have actually seen that in Saguenay/Lac-St-Jean, as I lived up there for a while, - from across a main street (in the Plateau when it was poor working-class there were blood fights between kids - all francophone - frm north and south of Mont-Royal - the Parc Lafontaine gang and the Parc Laurier gang. In Verdun it was handier to have French and English. As long as it doesn't degenerate into the Crips and Bloods, it is behaviour that has always been part of youthful, testosterone-driven, stupidity and nothing more.
I wonder what the late, lamented federalists Pierre Trudeau and Jacques Hebert, founders of Katimavik, would think to see joual-speaking youth being led to Pacific waters. On the federal dime.
Of course, I never implied that sovereignist/nationalist/reactionary youth are more bigoted than others. Their reflexes, like their hormones, are just an convenient excuse.
As for linguistic ability, or opportunity, let me know from your vast experience where the voting population (not their elites) is likely to be less unilingual, the Saguenay or the Plateau?
You do seem to think sovereignist youth are reactionary though. Bizarre. It is as if you are completely out of touch with living social movements in Québec.
There are reactionary sovereignists and extreme-nationalists, Les Jeunes Patriotes are an example. But in general it is the labour movement and other progressive social movements that tend to be sovereignist here, and capitalists on the other side.
"Joual-speaking". Cut out your fucking racist superiority. Or just go fuck yourself.
I remember the War Measures Act and knew several people who were rounded up in Trudeau's fascistoid attack on his political adversaries. And no, the people in question had absolutely nothing to do with the sorry band that kidnapped Cross and Laporte. Normal police action caught those rather hapless terrorists. So I'm sure not lamenting that shit.
I do have vast experience. Stop insulting me. Vast experience is one of the few compensations of getting older.
Obviously people in the Plateau are more likely to speak other languages, as opposed to people in the Saguenay, since it is a far more cosmopolitan, urbanised area. You don't need me to tell you that; you are just being a nasty little prick as usual.
My neighbourhood, around Jean-Talon market, is more multicultural and multilingual still.
I speak five languages. That is not so rare around here.
When I mentioned sovereignism and reaction on a sliding scale, I recognized the difference, and I recognize the historical and current tendencies.
When I mentioned joual, and the Saguenay, and the Plateau, I was being descriptive, not ascriptive.
When I mentioned Trudeau and Hebert, I was being sardonic, not waving a piece of red and white rag.
When I mentioned vast experience, I was being sincere. I'm sorry you misunderstood, in any of your five languages.
Its interesting how toddschneider and lagatta are in phase when it comes to labeling some sovereignists "fascist thugs". Their only disagreement is where to draw the line. The power of naming at work - a simple reflection of political privilege.
Well, the difference is I'm not labelling Les Jeunes patriotes as fascist thugs on the basis of their sovereignist outlook but their very thuggish behaviour towards leftists at many demonstrations.
And what the hell is 'political privilege'? Working in front of a computer?
In this case, it's being an Anglophone in Canada.
have to agree with Lagatta here, the chances of a federalist being assaulted in Quebec are about as likely as a Unitarian being assaulted in Vancouver or an empiricist in Toronto, and about as headline-worthy for being unusual ...
the angryphone Toddschneider stuff rings entirely false to me, an Anglo and father of a kid at McGill to whom I would never recommend Montreal life to if I thought this stuff was occurring outside of freakish incidents like the above
next!
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Wesen ist was Gewesen ist
Well, the difference is I'm not labelling Les Jeunes patriotes as fascist thugs on the basis of their sovereignist outlook but their very thuggish behaviour towards leftists at many demonstrations.
Another difference between us is, I will admit that I know the difference between sovereigntists and fascists, despite misrepresentations to the contrary.
The assault I was involved in for being federalist happened in Montreal, where I live, and also have a stepdaughter at McGill. Headlines? Yes. Charges? Not that I'm aware of.
