Liberal party exective and the "election" of iggy. Who are these guys?

the lib party exec are the living and breathing libs who were not appointed to anything by Chretien or Martin and are holding out hope that a new lib pm will apoint them to the senate or an agency or a foreign posting

I happen to think Michael Ignatieff is a complete tool, in every possible sense of the word. But this particular episode is about the Liberal Party rising to the occasion for once and actually being more interested in responding to a national crisis than engaging in a faction fight. 

There are a lot of nauseating, stupid things the Liberals have done in the past few years. This is not one of them.

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"One of the strange things about ideas is that they have a life of their own. They take over people and sometimes whole countries." - Brian Fawcett

West Coast Lefty wrote:

Stuart, do you mean by your post that you think the Libs will actually vote to defeat the government and form a coalition Cabinet with the NDP?

Not at all, unless the Conservatives insist on deviating from the G20 approach. But it does appear that they have capitulated on that so I'm expecting a budget that isn't too bad.

West Coast Lefty wrote:

What do you base your optimism on, Stuart? I'd love to believe you but would like to hear some rationale first.

I should clarify: I believe that it was important for the Liberal Party to have a functioning leader capable of actually running something ASAP. That was something they didn't have when the Coalition was fronted -- otherwise the Old Man wouldn't have had to show up and arrange it. As we all know, Stephane Dion isn't capable of performing fairly simple tasks. Their decision to shut down their leadership race and anoint the frontrunner was a responsible thing for them to do. For once, the ambition of individual Liberals took a back seat to them actually doing their job as the Official Opposition.

But let me be clear: the Liberals are there to advance the agenda of liberalism, not social democracy. It is their job to get a rational, business-friendly budget and that is what they appear to have obtained. I am commending the Liberal Party on doing a good job of being the Liberal Party not on doing a good job of being the NDP. But given the lousy job they've done of being the Liberal Party for the past three years, I figured that it is an improvement.

The nonsense that has, and that is still, being spewed out in the press about Canadians not voting for a coalition is pathetic. Of course we don't vote for a coalition when we go to the ballot box, whoever said we did. What gets conveniently omitted in all these brilliant observations however, is nor do we vote for a prime minister, and nor do we vote for a cabinet. 

62% of Canadians did not vote for Harper, so why is he acting like more than 50% voted for him, why is our press supporting him in these endeavours, and why would we be waiting one day past January 27, or whatever the date is that Parliament resumes,  to bring him down to earth with a thud?  Are we collectively nuts?

Are people seriously suggesting, based on his conduct in the office of Liberal Party leader, that Stephane Dion was competent? Maybe you guys need a reminder of the Liberals' byelection candidates and campaigns, Dion's attacks on his own handful of supporters during his time in office, his abject failure to craft messaging that resonated with people, the massive strike by Liberal volunteers and activists during his tenure, his simultaneous promotion of the Green Party coupled with his failure to get them to withdraw from any seats his party could win, etc. 

I was a big fan of Dion when he got the job. But I stunned, month-in, month-out by the complete clown car of a party he ran. Sure he was the victim of negative ads but the ads worked with such a gigantic proportion of the electorate because, fundamentally, voters are not THAT dumb. On election day, 70% of the people who voted Liberal anyway didn't believe he was up to the job.

Dion wasn´t a competent leader of the opposition, that is for sure, but I´m already nostalgic.  Iggy´s positions mark him as complete scum.  Its clear thats why the Lib bigwigs have wanted him for a while now.  The scariest thing about Iggy is that a lot of his vulnerabilities are his atrocious foreign policy positions and that hasn´t been an area where the NDP has shown a lot of ability at challenging the consensus.  I could see the NDP sleepwalking into this with a bunch more lightweight slogans and tinkering about and just getting demolished.  The party needs to seriously engage its grassroots and actually reflect the vision they represent or they are going to make themselves so bland that they become invisible and at a time when progressive Canadians should be very worried about the "choice" presented to us.

Brian White wrote:

People have totally bought in to the idea (planted by harper and carried on by the media) that dion is an idiot.

Dion proved himself to be an incompetent idiot on numerous occasions.

1) The Greenshift

2) Elizabeth May Central Nova Deal

3) The Greenshift

4) SCREWING UP A NATIONAL TELEVISION ADDRESS THAT RUBBER STAMPED HIM AS AN INCOMPETENT IDIOT!!!

5) Failing to step down as Liberal Leader immediately after the federal election

6) Backing down on all confidence votes

7) Unable to remain focused on the issues of the Coalition.

8) Elizabeth May Fiasco PART II (THE SENATE)

9) Unable to grasp the economic Meltdown focused back on Geek Issues

10) Should have stepped aside for the good of the Party and the coalition in order to put Stephen Harper out of office.

Dion was an idiot. He is an idiot. He made stupid stupid stupid decisions and they were inexperienced and amaturish.

The Television address was sheer incompetence. Harper didn't have to do anything, Dion did it all on his own and took down 2 parties with him.

 

Quote:

 Here is a fact. Dion was 3 days from being PM.

 No, a competent leader may have been 3 days away from being Prime Minister. Jack Layton would have pulled off being Prime Minister if select 4 days before. Perhaps even Iggy or Rae, or Goodale, or just about anyone with a heartbeat. But once Dion was Chosen to lead the coalition, the coalition was no longer 3 days from achieving power, they were set back on their heels and decimated because of DION. Dion was NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER close to being Prime Minister. If Dion had what it took to be Prime Minister, he would have not only asked for NATIONAL AIR TIME, he would have DELIVERED THE ADDRESS.

Harper outperformed and REMAINS Prime Minister Because of DION!!!

Quote:

Who stopped him? 

Not harper.

Thats right, Harper didn't stop him, Dion committed his own brand of Hari Kari. His Party Stopped him and forced him to resign immediately after being a public embarrassment to himself, the party and the coalition. 

Quote:

 

Before you knew it, the liberal backroom boys had deposed him without a vote. 

 

The above is who made the CORRECT DECISION, one that they should have taken immediately upon creating the coalition. Do not blame the LPC for doing the right thing. Perhaps the selection of IGGY was handled improperly but the riddence of Dion was TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. 

Quote:

I was born in a country with a lot more respect for democracy.  If a president  in Ireland (much the same powers as the GG) had done this, (denied a coalition with a SIGNED agreement) there would have been a rebellion and I am pretty sure many of the government supporters would have joined. We know the rules and lucky for us, they are written into the constitution.

We are not Ireland.  I am not a fan of rebellions and bombs.  Reminds me to much of FLQ days, and one time being in England and missing an IRA bomb by one subway stop. But you are correct in that the Canadian Public doesn't give a rats ass about the Suspension of Parliment.

 

Quote:

Hell some canadians think coup means coalition!

They sure do.. That is because Harper was able to get his message out after a flawed address to the Nation. Dion was INCAPABLE of getting his message out regarding the coalition, because he "wasn't used to not being in government".  That was DIONs job to get that message out, as Coalition Leader as selected by the LPC. Part of being an IDIOT is failing to get  your vital and important message out to the public when given VALUEABLE AIRTIME. 

WHy you choose to defend that GOOF who screwed up his party, the coalition and failed to get help out to Canadians is beyond me. That jackass couldn't talk about the economy without a 3 peat.  Some blamed CTV for showing that Dion was as useless as tits on a board.  Dion was given an opportunity to prove them wrong with a RECORDED message with no interference from the network.

He was a screwup. 

If Dion were to have had the qualities to be a Prime Minister, he needed to tell Elizabeth May , no fn'n way are we discussing a Senate seat for you.

He proved to the Public, that it was about him, her, and selfishness, over the needs of the Public. So why choose a selfish goof, over a selfish prick if you are the public. THe believe they voted for the lying selfish prick, and prefer that to the goof.

Michael Ignatieff, the Liberal Manchurian candidate.

He that says "we" when writing in the New York Times to defend the American empire. He that says "we" when defending torture. He that says "we" when arguing for a war in Iraq.

He's a wee bit too American for me; shades of 1988 hands erasing the Canadian border.

Brian White wrote:

If you think that, why do you think Jack and the Separatist leader did a deal with Dion? 

The deal was not signed until Dion was re-affirmed as Liberal Leader and fingered to head the coalition, as accepted by the LPC MPs. The Coalition had left the station and was going to happen no matter WHO was chosen to head it. It could have been any member of the LPC. The LPC made the Same mistake twice. Not in choosing Dion, but for the reasons behind choosing Dion. He would be the one to make less waves in the party, and would step down in 5months. They failed to realize what a bumbling idiot he was, and that he was more then capable of blowing it before the Monday Deadline.  Obviously NDP supporters had rallies to have Jack be the interum leader of the coalition until a Real Liberal leader could be selected. This could have been the best missed opportunity for the coalition, as, regardless of what you may think of Mr. Layton, he has proven competent, effective and an excellent media communicator and spokesperson, and this was going to be a big event when television media makes the story. But that said, any Liberal Leader from Rae to Iggy to Leblanc, Goodale etc, could have the jelly to have forwarded the coalition if the LPC could set aside their internal battles. Unfortuneately it took another Dion Meltdown to prove how much the party needed solid leadership.

Quote:

When the coalition was announced, the first inkling I got was people with candles for the coalition lining the streets as my bus home from work drew near victoria. 

I never saw that before! 

To bad Dion blew out the candles on the your cake. That is the problem when someone like DIon is spoonfed, they believe their entitlement and leadership is a cakewalk when holdup in a cocoon.

Quote:

I think  you and your arguements are daft by the way. You are totally led around by the nose by whatever the newspapers write.  In the tyee this week lots of people spoke up for the coalition. But that is not controlled by the big media boys.

  It doesn't matter if you think my arguments are daft. One of us has to accept the fact that Dion was relieved of command for good reasons. 

Quote:

 

The dion video was poor quality but the speech was ok. 

Why did you not listen to what he said?

I tried very hard to listen to his national address. Like most people, I got to hear Prime Ministers Harpers underwhelming, short and shallow address to the Nation that would have buried him had........

1) Dion not failed to produce his televised taped address.

2) That because it was Dion and because he was incompetent, the tape a disgrace and an embarrassment, the story turned from Harpers weak performance to Dions ..... MIA tape to end all coalitions.

You do not BEG for national television time then be a no show, if you intend to be the Prime Minister of Canada. 

Quote:

Do you prefer newsreaders as politicians because that can be aranged? 

You seem to be saying that you want a guy with shoulder pads and a salami stuck down his trowsers as a leader? 

 My arguments are daft? Thanks for providing that piece above

Quote:

It took real guts for Dion to make a deal with the others.

He would have had real guts if he had stepped down. He would have been able to take some credit for the coalition and leave in class.  The LPC found their guts when their survival was in question.  It has nothing to do with Guts for DIon to "make a deal", they had no choice.  

Quote:

Canadians do not know how to count, and do not understand that numbers in the commons is all that matters.  The coalition has the numbers and harper does not. So in a normal parliamentary democracy, harper says bye bye.

It was Harper who didn't know how to count. It was Dion who blew it.

Quote:

But you want harper to continue!

If I wanted Harper to continue I wouldn't have been so vocal about the potential for the coalition to come apart at the seams should Dion should be the leader.  I wouldn't have pushed an ABD campaign, and it wouldn't piss me off  that people who were excited about the coalition were willing to overlook the weakness and incompetence of Dion.  See, I was excited about the coalition and the fact that government was going to get the wakeup call it needed. But it took only moments to realize that Dion was not only incompetent, he was disconnected to what was/is happening with the economy.  He was lost and sidetracked and living sugar plum dreams as Prime Minister while handing out Senate seats and acting and behaving like an MP of entitlement becoming a PM of entitlement.    

Quote:

Dion is gone, what is to stop a coalition now?   Absolutely nothing.

The fact that Dion tainted the coalition. That the word is Cancer to many Canadians, the fact that the current Leader of the Liberals doesn't mention the word and is more then likely willing to keep this Harper Government afloat and position themselve for a fall 2009 election.

The only Party that might have an interest in the coalition as a viable force is the NDP and since the LPC is playing them.... It is going to take another Harper Brainfart before the LPC and NDP find a way to go forward together.   I wouldn't hold my breath......the LPC believe they can get back a handful of seats in an election, because Dion put the elevator in the basement and the only direction is UP.  They will be fundraising and targeting ridings and undermining the NDP to put them in a stronger opposition position and treat this as a two step approach back to power.

The coalition is nothing more then a bargaining chip, and they are not going to spend any resources to fight a PR campaign for the coalition.

The coalition  train has no conductor.

outwest wrote:

Well put, Brian.

Quote:

Mad Max, according to your comments, our MPS should choose our Prime Minister solely on the basis of gwiney-voiced, politically slanted newspaper articles, "The people rejected (Dion) on mass in huge numbers, many from his own party, the NDP, and swing voters and non voters."

The people did reject Dion. That was proven at the polls and shortly afterwards with his immediate removal from the LPC. Political Parties don't terminate popular leaders.  Dion had one huge opportunity to swing popular opinion on national television, during a moment that was creating more interest then the September election. He did worse then anyone could ever expect. He even surpassed my worst expectations for him which weren't all that optimistic.

Quote:

So I ask you: What "people"? This is the real question to ask yourself, here. What people? The people determined by newspaper pundits, or the people who went out to anti-coalition protests?

I am glad you think things are ticky boo for the coalition and everything is hunkey dory. There are waves of people 62% dying to have a coalition, and the LPC are drooling at the opportunity to take the reigns of power with Ignatieff at the helm.  No, not even these opportunistic Liberals will commit to the successful coalition that Dion left behind. 

That is because, while the coalition platform looks good, what the former LPC leader left behind was a train wreck.  There isn't strong public support for the coalition, but there is strong anger that goes past the CPC partisan hack. 

Quote:

Because that's what you're saying.

I say what I think needs to be said, and I listen to what others say.  Some people do believe that the coalition is supported by a large portion of the population. They can continue to believe that...... or that Dion was a great leader and has no blame in how the coalition is perceived publicly, or in his televised address.  People questioned my posts prior to Dion leading the coalition. THere was no media dissing him, they were too excited about the events and wondering if he would get a 2nd life and a chance to redeem himself. That makes great copy. But then so does a national disaster, which is what Dion managed to achieve, as he failed to get the coalition message out.

Quote:

What you and so many other Canadians don't seem to understand is that your personal (or shall I say your media-brainwashed personal opinion) that Dion is "incompetent,

  People expect the person who is about to make history and become the next Prime Minister of Canada to be able to demonstrate his competence by giving a national address during the air time alloted, just as the Prime Minister himself was able to accomplish, no matter how medicore.  That event rubber stamped that the below average Harper performance was competent enough when compared to Dions prime time disaster. 

Quote:

 " or Jack is an "embarrassment,"

He is competent, not an embarrassment, that is for Dion.  No doubt Jack can count and acts like a player and deal maker.

 

Quote:

or May is "overtly ambitious" or whatever ad hominen personal attacks and opinions you repeat about said leaders 

She asked for a Senate seat during a critical crises in parliment.  The facts are the facts, and if you cannot grasp that it was important for first Dion then Jack to squash that bug, because it legitimized Harpers quest in stacking the Senate.   Her self interest and Dions inability to deal with it, are one of many mistakes and failures DIon made in a short time.

 

Quote:

- has nothing to do with whether the coalition is legally sanctioned or not. And for that matter, neither does the opinion of what ANYONE in the media count, either, no matter who they are or no matter their numbers at protests, etc. 

Dions actions and damage to the coalition are reasons why the coalition may never come to fruition, regardless of the proroguing of parliment. If Dion hadn't been such a media disaster and had he been capable of telling May there was no Senate seat for her or anyone during the coalitions existence, then the coalition could make a case for Harpers Senate appointments of partisan hacks. 

It certainly does make a difference, or the coalition wouldn't be in the position it is in today, which isn't the position of strength it held prior to Dion being selected as coalition leader, and Harper postponing votes to avoid the inevitable. It would still be inevitable no matter how much Harper delays parliment except that Dion crippled the coalition. 

Quote:

In a genuine democracy the coalition's viability is strictly a legal parliamentary matter. Period. It's black and white, unless hi-jacked, which I fear it has been by the GG, the Conservatives, and very likely Ignatieff and his corporate-loving backroom boys. We'll know for sure, come the end of January.

I do not agree with the GGs decision. However it is done.  It also gave the coalition more time to build a base to challenge the CPC but it appears clear that the LPC do not believe a coalition is the best bet in their long term interests.

Quote:

Once again, please read your parliamentary history. Your high school popularity contest method of choosing the leader, ie. using your personal opinion of (see rants above) who you like and who you don't want to see in political power, and why as the basis of who is allowed to rule, is completely, totally, legally, morally, and ethically IRRELEVANT.   

 

 

Madmax,

 

The recent election determined the fact that 3 parties outnumber 1 in the House of Commons; popular public opinion, including yours, has no validity in deciding whether the coalition is legal or whether it will persist.

 

Your personal disapproval of certain leaders and conditions surrounding the coalition's formation, merited or not, is completely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You wrote,

 "There is something wrong when the coalition is not supported by the very voters who elected LPC and NDP MPs."

 

Again, please send me just one link that specifically describes the election where "voters didn't support the coalition."

You can't do it, as it never happened. 

 

One of the biggest problems with "progressives" such as yourselves is that you allow the Tories to tell you what to think. At the slightest whiff of challenge by the other side via an onslaught of biased news stories, you fold like a house of cards.

 

No way would I EVER allow "public opinion" as reported by our yellow and biased MS Media to tell me that "the majority of anti-Tory Canadians do NOT support the coalition," and use that as the basis for my opinion. 

 

Do you not understand that polls are almost always skewed on behalf of vested, political interests? Please desist from using them as your raison d'etre for condemning the most logical, legal action the progressive wing has recently undertaken - unification, at last. 

 

So the dirty tricks fella Warren Kinsella is coming back to head the Liberal war room for the next election.