Obama waffles on Guantanamo

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Sun, 2009-01-11 16:05

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Obama waffles on Guantanamo

Quote:
In particular, he said, he was unlikely to close the Guantanamo Bay detention center in the first 100 days of his presidency.

"It is more difficult than I think a lot of people realize -- and we
are going to get it done -- but part of the challenge ..... is that you
have a bunch of folks that have been detained, many of whom who may be
very dangerous, who have not been put on trial or have not gone through
some adjudication," Obama said.

While some evidence against terrorism suspects may be tainted by the
tactics used to obtain it, Obama said, that doesn't change the fact
there are "people who are intent on blowing us up."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-obamatv0111,0,45003...

Sun, 2009-01-11 16:10

Unionist

"When I said I'd close Guantanamo, I didn't realize it was chock full of terrorists! This changes everything!"

Sun, 2009-01-11 16:40

Sven

Unionist wrote:

"When I said I'd close Guantanamo, I didn't realize it was chock full of terrorists! This changes everything!"

I heard Canada is going to welcome the detainees upon release. Is that true?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 16:42

Unionist

Sven wrote:

I heard Canada is going to welcome the detainees upon release. Is that true?

I heard someone suggest that the detainees should just be returned to their home countries.

What a wacky idea, eh!?

Sun, 2009-01-11 16:50

Sven

Unionist wrote:

I heard someone suggest that the detainees should just be returned to their home countries.

What a wacky idea, eh!?

The US is prohibited from returning detainees to their home countries if it is likely that they will be persecuted or killed upon their return. And, as I understand it, that is true for many, many detainees. That's why some European countries are considering taking in some of the detainees. But, I think T.O. would be an ideal location, no?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:07

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Yes, they were real concerned about the fate of human beings when they shipped a Canadian to Syria, or bombed wedding parties for that matter.

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:09

Unionist

You are a funny man. Let me introduce you to Maher Arar.

Anyway, I don't think the detainees were refugees fleeing to the U.S. looking for liberty.

But then, you live there, so maybe you know better.

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:11

Sven

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Yes, they were real concerned about the fate of human beings when they shipped a Canadian to Syria, or bombed wedding parties for that matter.

So, in your view, the American should send the detainees home?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:16

Sven

Unionist wrote:
Anyway, I don't think the detainees were refugees fleeing to the U.S. looking for liberty.

But then, you live there, so maybe you know better.

One of many articles re Europeans talking about accepting detainees:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/22/AR200812...

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:24

#10

Unionist

I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but who knows, maybe someone is listening.

1. Have you ever heard of U.S. rendition of prisoners to countries where they are tortured?

2. Have you ever heard of Maher Arar?

3. Have you ever heard of Guantanamo detainees being tortured - by the U.S.? And you, with a straight face (or keyboard), suggest that the U.S. is concerned about the health and safety of the prisoners?

4. How about asking the detainees if they'd like to go home?

5. Are the detainees allowed to have opinions as to whether they want to be freed, where they would like to go, how they are being treated, etc.?

6. Do you do kids' parties and bar mitzvahs?

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:28

#11

Sven

Unionist wrote:
4. How about asking the detainees if they'd like to go home?

Well, obviously, if they want to go home, let them. But, there is clearly concern that many, many of the detainees will be tortured or killed if they return home.

So, for [u]those[/u] detainees, I think Canada (particularly the TO area) should raise its hand and take in a few of the poor fellers.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:34

#12

Unionist

Canada should demand the return of Omar Khadr. The rest are the responsibility of their capturers and torturers. Why wouldn't your homeland offer them residence status? Don't you have a Statue of Liberty, or some such scam?

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:34

#13

Sven

U.N. Official from a few days ago: "Manfred Nowak, special rapporteur for the U.N. Human Rights Council, said more countries that had criticized U.S. treatment of Guantanamo detainees should accept some prisoners so Obama could fulfill a campaign pledge to shut down the prison camp."

Read report here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090105/wl_nm/us_un_guantanamo

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:43

#14

Sven

If those detainees who cannot be returned home are dangerous, then you might understand why Obama couldn't, politically, release them all into US society (a problem, by the way, that he didn't create and has pledged to solve)...and that's why Europe is looking at helping Obama. Will Canada?

If those detainees are not dangerous, then Canada should have no qualms welcoming them with open arms, no?

But, I think too many critics are all talk and no walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:43

#15

Unionist

Sven, what is your problem? Either they go home, or the U.S. welcomes and resettles them. Why are you quoting all these characters? Is the U.S. short of land?? Or is there a danger they will be tortured?

How about stop quoting some Austrian idiot and tell us what the precise problem is?

Why isn't Omar Khadr back home yet?

Obama is afraid we'll torture him?

What a pathetic joke.

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:47

#16

Sven

Unionist wrote:
Sven, what is your problem? Either they go home, or the U.S. welcomes and resettles them.

Then you are completely naïve about American politics. See my last post above (which was cross-posted with yours).

[/quote]

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:48

#17

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Manfred Nowak is an asshole. Why should critics of US war crimes be obliged to come to their assistance?

The Guantanamo detainees who are innocent (i.e. the ones the US has no intention of putting on trial) should be given $25 million each in compensation and settled in the USA under the witness protection program.

What's that you say? They're dangerous people? Well, who made them dangerous? And if they're too dangerous to live in the USA, why should anyone else accept them?

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:49

#18

Sven

M. Spector wrote:
And if they're too dangerous to live in the USA, why should anyone else accept them?

All talk. No walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:51

#19

Sven

M. Spector wrote:

Manfred Nowak is an asshole.

[i]"Portugal wrote to its European Union partners in December urging them to resettle Guantanamo detainees."[/i]

Is Portugal "an asshole", too?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 17:53

#20

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Sven wrote:

Then you are completely naïve about American politics. See my last post above (which was cross-posted with yours).

What kind of response is that?

Are we also naïve about Israeli politics when we demand that Israel get out of Gaza, and naïve about Canadian politics when we demand our government take real action on climate change?

Or have you run completely out of arguments and now just have to rely on nonsense?

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:54

#21

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Sven wrote:
Is Portugal "an asshole", too?

If it walks like an asshole and talks like an asshole....

Sun, 2009-01-11 17:57

#22

Unionist

I am totally opposed to resettling any Guantanamo detainees in Canada unless they are:

1. Omar Khadr; OR

2. Refugees who individually request asylum here.

These people are not cattle to be tortured and then herded around against their will. And yes, this Ms. Portugal, whoever she is, is also an asshole.

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:00

#23

Sven

M. Spector wrote:
What kind of response is that?

Obama could not, politically, release all detainees in America. It's naïve to think otherwise.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:03

#24

Sven

Unionist wrote:
I am totally opposed to resettling any Guantanamo detainees in Canada unless they are:1. Omar Khadr; OR2. Refugees who individually request asylum here. These people are not cattle to be tortured and then herded around against their will.

Then, I think we have arrived at a solution! We'll offer each detainee $1 million to seek asylum in Canada (which, for that kind of ka-ching, 99% would likely accept). A chartered jet could have them landing in Toronto by the end of the day on January 20th.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:04

#25

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

If America can kidnap people from their homelands, hold them, abuse them, and torture them, America can also compensate and resettle them. It is your mess, you clean it up.

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:05

#26

Sven

Besides, if the detainees are just poor, innocent, harmless fellers, why the heck would anyone in Canada object to welcoming them to your country with open arms?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:07

#27

Sven

Frustrated Mess wrote:

If America can kidnap people from their homelands, hold them, abuse them, and torture them, America can also compensate and resettle them. It is your mess, you clean it up.

You act as though Obama created the problem (Memo to Mess: Obama isn't ever president yet). He's going to try and solve the problem. And you, of course, have no interest in lending him a hand.

All talk. No walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:08

#28

Unionist

Your government kidnapped and tortured them - you should resettle them.

How many could fit comfortably in your place, Sven (since you seem to be so concerned about where they will go)?

Don't worry. I promise not to show them your babble posts.

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:17

#29

Sven

Unionist wrote:
Your government kidnapped and tortured them - you should resettle them.How many could fit comfortably in your place, Sven (since you seem to be so concerned about where they will go)?Don't worry. I promise not to show them your babble posts.

I suppose you would have said the same thing about the Marshall Plan? The immediate post-war leaders of Germany and Japan were responsible for their countries' war leaders' actions...so they should have been left to clean up their own post-war problems.

All talk. No walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:24

#30

Sven

From [u]Der Spiegel[/u]:

[b][i]On Dec. 11, the Portuguese Foreign Minister Luís Amado wrote: "The time has come for the European Union to step forward. As a matter of principle and coherence, we should send a clear signal of our willingness to help the US government in that regard, namely through the resettlement of detainees. As far as the Portuguese government is concerned, we will be available to participate." His statement indicated it is now possible a solution will emerge. The acceptance of some of the detainees by European countries could become an inauguration gift of sorts for Obama.[/b][/i]

Link:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,597991-5,00.html

Like I said, if the detainees are poor, innocent, and harmless fellers, then Canada (particularly the good-willed folks in T.O.) should open their arms wide open.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:44

#31

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

You Americans are so typical, Sven. All talk and bluster about responsibility but always trying to get someone else to clean up your messes as horrible as they are. Isn't it time America took responsibilty for your fuck-ups all over the planet? Isn't it? Not likely, eh? Not when you can still force them off onto a world dumbfounded by your national arrogance and collective madness (and let's not forget the many tyrants and second-rate politicians so cheaply bought off).

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:46

#32

Sven

Likewise, so many progressives preach "collective solutions" to problems. "Let's all give everyone a helping hand!" But, when it comes to actual sacrifice, it's....

All talk. No walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:49

#33

Sven

I can see FM going back a few years: "You Germans fucked everything up. Tens of millions were killed because of your actions. And, now, you want [i]our[/i] help rebuilding [i]your[/i] country and helping you fix [i]your[/i] major fuck-up?!?!

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:50

#34

Sven

I could understand your position if it was Bush who came calling for help (he's the one who created Gitmo). But, Obama?

So much talk. Zero walk.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 18:51

#35

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

You mean mop up the blood and hide the evidence of war crimes? No, we don't do that. Another favorite word of Americans is "justice" and we on the left will be glad to help with that when you decide to hand Bush, Cheney, et al, to the International Criminal Court. But justice is like responsibility to Americans, isn't it?

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:52

#36

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

For Germany there was also trials. Handing over your war criminals, Sven?

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:54

#37

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
I could understand your position if it was Bush who came calling for help (he's the one who created Gitmo). But, Obama?

So Americans aren't responsible for what their governments do? Always, always, trying to duck responsibility. Keeping with historical precedence I see.

Sun, 2009-01-11 18:58

#38

Sven

Frustrated Mess wrote:

So Americans aren't responsible for what their governments do? Always, always, trying to duck responsibility. Keeping with historical precedence I see.

And the Germans and Japanese weren't responsible for what their governments did either. Or, to put it another way, the handful of Germans tried as war criminals were solely responsible for the killing of 50 million people.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:00

#39

Sven

[u]The Bottom Line[/u]: You wouldn't agree to accept detainees in Canada because they're likely to start killing people. If that's [i]not[/i] the case, then what's the big deal?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:09

#40

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
And the Germans and Japanese weren't
responsible for what their governments did either. Or, to put it
another way, the handful of Germans tried as war criminals were solely
responsible for the killing of 50 million people.

They weren't? Tell it to them. How many of them died from fire bombing? Do you so quickly forget how your government made Japanese civilians pay for their nation's war with Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Then you made the Koreans and Vietnamese pay. Latin America has been paying forever and in Haiti you still insist on their blood for stones just because they rebelled against slavery.

The bottom line is that your nation kidnapped people, abused all, killed some, tortured the rest and now you want to relinquish all responsibility for your horrible crimes against humanity (not to mention Abu Gharib and Fallujah) and you are shameless and unaplogetic for it. I will say what the entire world ought to have said long ago: Fuck you. Clean up your own mess.

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:09

#41

Fidel

Don't forget Khalid Shaikh Mohammed even though everyone else seems to have. After just five years at Gitmo gulag for torture and basic human rights abuses, KSM confessed to everything.

Everything, you ask?

Every thing!

The American inquisition extracted-confession included KSM's plan to bomb the Plaza Bank before it was even built!

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:11

#42

Sven

Frustrated Mess wrote:

The bottom line is that your nation kidnapped people, abused all, killed some, tortured the rest and now you want to relinquish all responsibility for your horrible crimes against humanity (not to mention Abu Gharib and Fallujah) and you are shameless and unaplogetic for it. I will say what the entire world ought to have said long ago: Fuck you. Clean up your own mess.

Wonderful. If that's the position that the world takes as well, Gitmo will never get closed down (or the detainees will be returned to their homeland and what may happen will happen).

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:13

#43

Sven

Fidel wrote:

Don't forget Khalid Shaikh Mohammed...

I hear he'd be a wonderful neighbor.

Please welcome him to Canada with open arms of forgiveness and love.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:13

#44

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

What a statement. Let's translate it: We reject responsibilty for our own actions and crimes and unless the world cleans up after us we will continue to make these innocent and unfortunate human beings pay. And your best friends with Israel? That begins to explain a lot. No wonder Americans are irrationally afraid of being attacked. You think you deserve it.

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:20

#45

Sven

Face it, FM, you'd rather move to America than invite Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and his ilk to live as your neighbors in Canada.

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:24

#46

Fidel

Sven wrote:

Face it, FM, you'd rather move to America than invite Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and his ilk to live as your neighbors in Canada

Do you have any idea of the scum of the earth your government, Britain, and our's knowingly welcomed with open arms since at least the end of WW II?

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:26

#47

Sven

From the same Der Spiegel article:

[b][i]"Germany became the second EU country to signal that it didn't want to be responsible for a failure to close Guantanamo. A spokesman for the Foreign Ministry confirmed Monday that Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier had ordered his staff to research the legal and political issues surrounding the possibility of Germany taking in former Guantanamo prisoners. A government spokesperson said the country is considering taking in Guantanamo inmates who have not been charged in the US and who have become stateless or are threatened with torture or persecution if they return to the countries from where they came."[/b][/i]

I don't get it. The detainees are just a bunch of [b][i]friendly and harmless fellows[/b][/i] (that those paranoid Americans think are all dangerous and stuff). So, why won't Canada open the doors wide open to them?

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Sun, 2009-01-11 19:32

#48

Ghislaine

I am confused about the argument here and why you keep asking if Canada is going to take these detainees, Sven?

Guantanamo should be closed and trials based on the rule of law and due process should happen immediately. Any detainees found innocent should be returned to exactly where they were found. That includes Khadr.

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:37

#49

Hoodeet

Canada has been shameful in its immigration policy and it has received relatively very few refugees from Iraq and other war zones, while Scandinavian countries and others have taken in tens of thousands. Our government and the majority of our population are hypocritical.

I am not hopeful that anyone from Gitmo will ever be granted refugee status here, or even that Mr. Khadr will be allowed back.

The US became responsible for the safety and the lives of those people it kidnapped and broke mercilessly over these past years. If they feel their lives are at risk if they are repatriated, hey need to be resettled in communities of their own culture and provided with the necessary medical and psychological support.

No impunity for war criminals and torturers!

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:39

#50

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Sven wrote:

[u]The Bottom Line[/u]: You wouldn't agree to accept detainees in Canada because they're likely to start killing people. If that's [i]not[/i] the case, then what's the big deal?

Why can't we rely on the "Sven defence"?

Quote:
[s]Obama[/s] Harper could not, politically, [s]release all[/s] accept any detainees [s]in[/s] from America. It's naïve to think otherwise.

Sun, 2009-01-11 19:39

#51

Sven

Ghislaine wrote:

I am confused about the argument here and why you keep asking if Canada is going to take these detainees, Sven?

Guantanamo should be closed and trials based on the rule of law and due process should happen immediately. Any detainees found innocent should be returned to exactly where they were found. That includes Khadr.

The problem with returning all detainees to their respective homelands is that many of them will be persecuted and killed.

The question then becomes: What do you do with those detainees?

Politically, it would be impossible for Obama to simply release them in the United States. Gitmo would stay in place before that happened. So, several European countries are considering taking in detainees to assist Obama (who didn't create Gitmo) with the closing of the camp.

Some, like FM, just say, "Fuck you. You solve the problem. It's your problem." What is unsaid is: "No fuckin' way do I want dangerous people like that roaming free in Canada!"

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