"Why should I respect these oppressive religions?"

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Mon, 2009-02-02 12:34

Fidel

Quote:
The remnants of the Communist and Socialist parties and members of the trade unions resisted the Nazi regime.

As did any members of the clergy, of all denominations, who like Pastor Martin Niemöller , opposed Adolf Hitler's efforts to bring the German churches under control of the Nazis.

He also founded the Pastors' Emergency League, a group, among its other activities, helped combat rising discrimination against Christians of Jewish background.

In 1937, Niemoller was imprisoned for four years in solitary confinement and eventually sent to Sachsenhausen and then to Dachau concentration camps, he was moved in 1945 to the Tirol, where Allied forces freed him at the end of World War II.

In the early years of the Third Reich, political prisoners were a significant portion of the concentration camp inmates. At the end of July 1933, about 27,000 political prisoners were being held in concentration camps in "protective custody."

Dachau was always a camp for political prisoners.

Mon, 2009-02-02 12:40

#103

The Bish

It's really sad that it's basically impossible to have a conversation about religion without it devolving like this. Anyone who supports even the slightest element of any religion becomes a "defender of religion" (as though the beliefs and actions of the several billion religious people on Earth can all be lumped together). And anyone who criticises any element of religion is intolerant and xenophobic (as though there aren't serious problems with many practitioners of religion).

It seems quite clear to me that many people on both sides are intolerant and dogmatic, and it's one of those discussions that seems impossible to have in any meaningful way when more than a few people are involved.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:08

#104

George Victor

Fidel:

"In the early years of the Third Reich, political prisoners were a significant portion of the concentration camp inmates. At the end of July 1933, about 27,000 political prisoners were being held in concentration camps in "protective custody."

---------------------------------------------------------

For a good look at the emergin situation in 1933 through to 1945 have a peek at Victor Klemperer's two volume diaries: I Shall Bear Witness and To the Bitter End."

My library has them. you can use inter-library.

This fellow was actually saved by the bombing of Dresden in the winter of 1945.

And I find the "intolerance", Bish, only arises in the company of people who have not read such works - about any religion, even their own.

My inlaws are against such inquiry because it is more comfortable to go on faith. And some of them are gentle, kindly people. But they elected Bush.

Hopefully, folks intimate with the IT world can read Klemperer et al outside of the "dead tree" media. It's really the unread who are dead (sorry, can't pass up a chance for a little alliterative license).

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:19

#105

Fidel

It's a good thing he didnt live through catastroika. He'd have been disappointed with capitalism.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:33

#106

George Victor

He never wanted it, Fidel. Google up his bio. You're not alone in your pre-occupation, you know. Just more obdurate than most.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:38

#107

N.R.KISSED

I agree with The Bish, I also agree with Maysie's excellent post.

I am reluctant to participate in these posts due to the responses of those who I believe are athiest fundamentalists and seem to believe not only that they alone have access to the truth but are willing to attack anyone who does not entirely share their opinions of what a good athiest should believe. I deeply resent it being implied that I am "defending religion" and in doing so defending the oppressive practices engaged by religious institutions and persons. I also resent it being implied that my postings themselves are an act of gender oppression.

Like many others who are posting here I don't really have a lot of time for organized religions. I also suppose that I am an athiest ( although I would prefer agnostic); I don't believe in a supreme being although this could also be said for some who consider themselves religious. Not only do I not believe in god but I also don't make a faith out of reason or science, belief in any true faith or dogma can lead to oppression. I also don't feel the need to have an attachment to the label athiest so that I can be derisive of other people nor do I necessarily wish to be associated with all those who are athiest, many who have also been guitly of perpetrating brutality and oppression. AYN RAND EWWW!!!

I do not think it is necessary or accurate though to speak of "religion" as a monolithic thing, focusing only on fundamentalist beliefs and all the countless atrocities that have been carried out under the banner of various religions. Perhaps I am using the term fundamentalist too broadly because I might actually include probably the majority of believers.

There are those though who consider themselves religious who have dedicated themselves to social justice and anti oppression. I do think it is a great disservice to the progressive strains within various religions to have their beliefs lumped in with those who are oppressive. The liberation theologist fought on the side of oppressed and were tortured and murdered. There actually were some priests that opposed the Nazis and were also imprisoned and killed because of it. I also have a friend who has frequently gone to Rev. Jerimiah Wright's Trinity United Church and was blown away by the uncompromising anti oppressive stance and sense of inclusivity of this community. I don't think it is appropriate to lecture this community on their connection with their faith and its practice. This does not mean that the monolithic beast "religion" needs to be praised and all the atrocites committed forgiven. I might hope (perhaps unrealisticly) that people might consider that there are some religous people and beliefs that are not accurately represented by this constructed beast. It is also worthwhile noting that progressive traditions within religious faiths have historically been viciously attacked by the orthodoxy I really wish to have no part in perpetuating that.

Unionist I don't think it is particularily genuine to suggest that people are going to "walk out of church and join hands" with you after you have been calling them deluded idiots and perpetrators of atrocity.

I also have a problem with people that conflate organized religion with spirituality.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:39

#108

Slumberjack

The Bish wrote:
It's really sad that it's basically impossible to have a conversation about religion without it devolving like this.

Isn't it though. There is some merit to be found in NM's view, that cult like behaviour can turn worthwhile alliances of thoughtful individuals into an equally extreme polar opposite from that which caused their formation in the first place.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:46

#109

NorthReport

The Bish wrote:

It's really sad that it's basically impossible to have a conversation about religion without it devolving like this. Anyone who supports even the slightest element of any religion becomes a "defender of religion" (as though the beliefs and actions of the several billion religious people on Earth can all be lumped together). And anyone who criticises any element of religion is intolerant and xenophobic (as though there aren't serious problems with many practitioners of religion).

It seems quite clear to me that many people on both sides are intolerant and dogmatic, and it's one of those discussions that seems impossible to have in any meaningful way when more than a few people are involved.

Good post.

Kinda reminds me of our discussions in the Mid-East threads.

Mon, 2009-02-02 13:56

#110

Maysie

Okay people, the thread's getting a bit long. Please continue a part two if you like.

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