ONDP Leadership Thread IV: Countdown

Lost in Bruce County said:

"I had heard about Andrea supporting Roy from several long time Hamiltonian NPD'ers this past weekend. To my credit, I did perform several Google searches and nothing came up... Andrea did refuse to support Kelly Hayes from the CLC and instead endorsed Liberal Bob Bratina who continues to hold Andrea's old seat today. Shame on Andrea!"

One problem: Kelly Hayes didn't run in the 2004 by-election.

I think a moderator may want to chat with Lost in Bruce County. Babble policy is pretty clear: "you will not use this discussion board to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory" I'll give LinBC the benefit of the doubt and assume that the first falsehood was an accident but now we have two. It's really not cool.

 meloves:

"As a spectator in BC, I wanted to root for Andrea Horwath, it would be nice for the NDP to field an energetic strong young woman leader in contrast to those two tired old clowns leading the Tories and Liberals but based on the interviews on rabble I have to agree that Tabuns comes off sounding a lot clearer about how to make the NDP relevant again in Ontario, some of Horwath's answers are really cringeworthy.  Bisson and Prue both sound like mistakes although Prues position on having a debate on the seperate school system sounds reasonable enough. "

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When you hear Tabuns "sounding a lot clearer about how to make the NDP relevant again in Ontario", are you responding to your own inclinations, or putting yourself in the position of the people who will be voting?

Exactly.  It's not an intellectual exercise for folks "out there".

And for the same reason, Prue on school debates is far from "reasonable enough". "Reason" has little to do with decisions by the great out there. 

Jesus Christ. This campaign is getting sleazy.

Peterjcassidy is now repeating the lie that was debunked in a previous thread - that Andrea Horwath refused to back a woman for the NDP nomination in Hamilton West in 2003. This is a straight-out lie as the article below shows.

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Myrie pursues NDP Hamilton West seat
The Hamilton Spectator
Tuesday, January 21, 2003
Page: A05
Section: News
Source: The Hamilton Spectator

A Spectator columnist and social development consultant wants to represent Hamilton West and the NDP in the next provincial election.

Evelyn Myrie, owner of an art shop and the co-chair of Hamilton's Black History Committee, announced her decision to try to replace outgoing MPP David Christopherson yesterday.

"We have good representation right now and I'd like to carry that mantle and have a strong voice at Queen's Park," Myrie said. "Ontarians deserve access to affordable housing, quality education and health care, child-care and affordable public power."

Wayne Marston, public school board trustee and head of Hamilton's labour council, announced his intention to run last week.

Myrie said she would be "a people's politician -- someone who listens to the public, validating their concerns."

Ward 2 Councillor Andrea Horwath chose not to throw her hat in the ring for the NDP Hamilton West nomination, but threw her support behind Myrie instead.

"She is a bright, energetic woman who brings many perspectives to the table that will only enrich the debate," Horwath stated in the release.

The provincial election is expected next spring.

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I doubt this will affect anyone's vote but I think this is beyond the realm of fair campaigning and certainly counter to the rules on babble.

foxymoron wrote:

so, for the sake of clarity, let's um...clarify exactly what's being discussed here.

are we discussing a byelection for a provincial seat, or for a municipal council seat?

 

We are talking bout the municipal seat vacated by Andrea,  not about the  Hamilton East by-election.  What the sister  from the Bruce is is saying about that municipal seat is basically correct. Andrea did not support  Kelly Hayes, a stong woman,  trade unionist  and New Democrat  who wanted to run in the  race to fill that municipal seat. 

How many more times do I have to put it in bold before  Sunday Hat recognizes that I am talking about the municipal.  seat.

and when the sister from the Bruce talks about Andrea's old seat stilll held by Bob Bratina  do I have to repeat  it is a  municipal seat we are talking about? Ward 2 to be precise in the municipality  of Hamilton-fomerly held by muncipal councillor Andrea Horwath now held by muncipal councillor Bob Bratina.?

And I do not appreciate being called a liar and accused of sleazy campaigning when I defend a sister subject to a scurrilious attackby respectully pointing out the truth. I think the moderator should be called in.

Great, more mudslinging at our own allies.

Maybe there should be a separate thread for men to discuss why Andrea Horwath isn't a good enough feminist, and we can proceed with leadership discussion here.

I could make Toronto politics sound pretty interesting if I made shit up.

Peter Tabuns is having a love affair with a goat! It's TOTALLY TRUE. If you want proof watch me bold random text.

I have asked the moderators to intervene., but perhaps we can settle this somewhat amicably?  Sunday Hat ,will you acknowledge that when the sister from the Bruce stated that Andrea endorsed Bob Bratina rather than supporting Kelly Hayes, she was tal;ling about the municipal seat, not about the 2004 provincial by-election?

 While I don'tt want to discuss Hamilton NDP internal battles publicly  I can tell you from my own involvment in such matters that Kelly Hayes was interested in running for the municipal seat when Andrea, having won the provincial  by-election ,vacated the municipal seat. When Andrea would not support her, this was one reason Kelly  did not run for the municipal seat.

.As part of that acknpwledgment it would be nice if you would withdraw your claim that the sister and I are liars. 

For my part I am willing to acknowledge that publicly Andrea supported Evelyn for the Hamilton Wes tNDP provincial nomination.

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"Andrea did refuse to support Kelly Hayes from the CLC and instead endorsed Liberal Bob Bratina who continues to hold Andrea's old seat today. Shame on Andrea!"

One problem: Kelly Hayes didn't run in the 2004 by-election.

I think a moderator may want to chat with Lost in Bruce County. Babble policy is pretty clear: "you will not use this discussion board to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory" I'll give LinBC the benefit of the doubt and assume that the first falsehood was an accident but now we have two. It's really not cool".

I have to say I don't find it a huge concession on your part to admit that Evelyn Myrie got Horwath's endorsement in 2003. I produced a news article from the time that established that pretty defininitively already.

If you could produce the same sort of documentation concerning Horwath's alleged decision to chase Kelly Hayes out of the race I'd love to see it.

If you can't (and I suspect that may be the case) then I suggest that you might want to stop posting stuff that you can't prove, in addition to your new pledge to stop posting stuff that is completely inaccurate.

Frankly, after the crap you've pulled I don't think people will be inclined to "take your word" on things. Your memory and the facts don't gel very well.

mycroft, care to make some book on the results?

my sense of the first ballot remains the same. no one--no one--can take anything for granted. tabuns ran out of steam weeks ago. his aura of inevitability punctured, he never proved he could take a punch, never proved he had any growth potential. indeed, he sorta reached his peter principle, as it were.

no doubt andrea has had a good week and some big endorsements, but the white noise emanating from her supporters suggest that they're afraid their own candidate can't take a hit, either. she's spent an inordinate amount of time wrapping herself in an obama mantle--community organizer, looks different from the competition. but she's not obama, as much as some would like to believe she represents our version. she's not, and it shows, and the more and more the rank and file see it, the more and more they realize she isn't ready for primetime.

when jack was elected leader, approx. 30 per cent of voters waited til convention to cast. i imagine this race will see much the same pattern. no one, but no one has the votes to carry on the first like jack did. 

my guessing is on first ballot is:

1. Horwath

2. Prue

3. Tabuns (mymymy what a difference a few weeks make)

4. Bisson

What shall we wager, dear mycroft?

If Mycroft and Foxy make a bet, how is the winner going to collect?

FWIW, it's nice to see that Prue's tracking has Andrea is first, but I suspect that Mycroft may be right to place her in second (fairly close behind Tabuns, I would suggest). But, as the overwhelming second choice among Prue and Bisson supporters (I'm basing this on my own phoning and conversations with activists), I still like her odds of winning on a second or third ballot.

scarboroughnative, it's been freakin' cold out there. that's the only place we can stay warm right now!

 the weather's about to turn. by sunday, that 'whoosh' you'll hear will be the sound of a suction seal breaking as several heads emerge from the swampy darkness.

Which affiliated Steelworker Locals have endorsed Bisson?

Did anyone read Bisson's answer on how to get immigrants and racial minorities involved in the party?  It shows an extraordinarily condescending view of newer Canadians and racialized people.  He finds it necessary to qualify that we should be looking for candidates in ridings where there is a significant population of their ethnicity.  I would hope that the ONDP is already doing this, but it shows that there is streak of thinking within the NDP that they should be ghettoized.  It also shows a belief that people from racialized groups do not have other abilities or expertise other than community activism.  

oh scott, i learned from the master

and hat, noone every said it was a 4-way race, but it certainly is a 3way race.

Quote:

Today, Peggy Nash and Michele Landsberg jointly released a statement endorsing Peter Tabuns for leader of the Ontario NDP.

"When our party chooses a leader, we have to go way deeper than geography or symbolism. We have to search our hearts and consciences and find the one person who best exemplifies our party’s values - the one who can lead with clarity, intelligence and an unshakable commitment to the issues.

Leadership demands vigour and moral courage. Peter Tabuns’ mettle has been tested and has proven itself over and over: Remember when, as a city councillor, he fought to a standstill the privatization of hydro, when he promoted the retrofitting of office buildings long before energy-saving was popular, and when he proposed an "outrageous" smoking ban in restaurants and bars.

We believe that Peter has the experience, the vision and the energy to step into leadership right now to guide us through this frightening recession. Peter fully grasps the social democratic approach to our deepening economic crisis - it’s not pouring money into the pockets of bankers and contractors. It’s about creating and sustaining jobs in both public and private sectors. It’s about shifting our health care focus to the prevention of illness and societal unrest by ending poverty, healing the environment, creating housing for all and confronting the inequality and economic injustice that destabilizes our communities.

He’s the right leader; the one we can proudly back right now."

Peggy Nash and Michele Landsberg

I was having a hard time choosing between two candidates, but now with the endorsement from Peggy Nash I am definitely selecting Peter Tabuns as my first choice.

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Yeah, how about everyone stop calling everyone liars.  That would be awesome.  Yes, I've received a couple of complaints about this thread, but honestly, as an outsider reading the arguments on both sides, there is no way for me to know from these posts whether the assertions on either side are true or not.  Looks like the usual political wrangling to me. 

If anyone official from any campaign feels like there has been something factually untruthful and defamatory posted here, then please feel free to contact me: michelle AT rabble DOT ca and I will look into it.  Otherwise, tone down the namecalling, okay?

Zeus speaks with authority.  peterjcassidy and Lost in Bruce County do not.

It is time for fact rather than gossip (lies) and innuendo.  It is time to end the slanderous smear campaign against Anrea Horwath.

I was there.  Peter and Lost were not.  Neither can claim to be privvy to the inner workings of the NDP in Hamilton.

Start with the garbage being spewed about the 2003 candidate selection in Hamilton West and the lies that Andrea sought out a white male candidate to run and did not support Evelyn Myrie, a woman of colour.  That Andrea did support the woman of colour has been documented  above by Sunday Hat.  Potential candidates for this nomination were sought and approached be a candidate search committee.  I know this to be fact.  I was on that committee.  I made some of those phone calls.  Andrea Horwath was not on the committee and therefore was not part of the search.

FACTS: Andrea did support Evelyn and did not search for any white male candidate.

Now to move on to the municipal election and the lies about Kelly Hayes' non-candidacy.  Again, I was there, part of the group that coalesced around a progressive candidate ensuring that the neocon was not elected.  Not only does Peter Cassidy not know Kelly Hayes well, his implication that she is some sort of weak meek creature who could not run because of anyone else's support, or lack thereof, is risable.  Also offensive.

Kelly is a very strong independent woman quite capable of thinking and deciding for herself.  To know Kelly is to know that had she wanted to run for a municipal seat, she would have.  To suggest that she wanted this but was thwarted, is either a blatant lie or an example of creative (but inaccurate) writing.

FACTS: Kelly Hayes worked for Bob Brattina's election. Kelly Hayes has actively worked for Andrea in all of her previous campaigns.  This is not the behaviour of a woman rejected by the candidate.  Andrea in no way prevented Kelly from running. 

FACT: Andrea is a strong advocate for women.  To suggest otherwise is to deliberately lie or to display appalling ignorance.

NOW post positive support for the candidate of your choice, but give up the sleazy smear campaign.  Please, use what functioning brain cells you have and keep untrue allegations that might be mined from this site from being quoted against whomever our new leader might be.

Zeus, if you were actually "there" " you would know that I was a member of  the Hamilton West executive and that when Dave came to the executive to   discuss the possibility of  him giving up his seat to run for  mayor  I moved the motion supporting him whatever he decided to.do. Would you acknowllege that truth? .

If you were"  there"You would also know that I was actively supporting a candidate to replace Dave when he finally did decide not to run in the general election and that I was a voting member at the nomination meeting to replace him.

If you and the other Andrea Horwath supporters have a modicum of integrity,decency and intelligence  you wo;; withdraw your scurrilious attacks and apologize. They do not do your candidate or our party any good..

There will almost certainly be an emergency resolution on the floor talking about the Stelco shutdown. Certaontly its  a major issue for our province and even the country/