Working Class and Rural Attitudes to Learning.

46 posts / 0 new

Thu, 2009-04-09 13:26

Tommy_Paine

Something struck me arising from the broad disscussion surrounding the issue of school shopping in Toronto.

Star Spangled Canadian said he thought rural people or farmers were well educated, smart and learned. (I'm paraphrazing madly here. Don't hold SSC to account for mostly my wording) And, Bookish Agrarian lamented that wasn't really his experience.

Nor is it mine, nor is what BA refered to limited to farmers or rural folk. I run up against the same ethic of ignorance in urban working class people.

Alice Munroe's autobiographical "View from Castle Rock" shares the same observation about the people she grew up with in rural South Western Ontario-- even in the Scottish families who brought with them a very high level of literacy, no matter how humble their old world origins.

I've met farmers and workers in the city that range from distrustfull or hostile to the notion, and fellow farmers and workers who engage in recreational learning, to the outright revelling in ignorance, as if it was a badge of honour.

What gives? What's to be done?

Thu, 2009-04-09 13:37

Tommy_Paine

"I've met farmers and workers in the city that range from distrustfull or hostile to the notion, and fellow farmers and workers who engage in recreational learning, to the outright revelling in ignorance, as if it was a badge of honour."

That might read a little clearer if the word "to" is inserted between "and fellow", so it would be:

I've met farmers and workers in the city that range from distrustfull or hostile to the notion, and to fellow farmers and workers who engage in recreational learning, to the outright revelling in ignorance, as if it was a badge of honour.

Seems I've never learned to edit very well in the composition box-- something about the font, I dunno. I will say I am distrustfull, even hostile to those that have learned to edit well in the composition box.

Thu, 2009-04-09 13:54

Star Spangled C...

I remember seeing a stat somewhere that of various occupations that were "non-professional" (like doctors and lawyers that require special schooling just to enter the profession) that farmers were among the occupations most likely to hold a graduate degree. The reality today is that farming and a lot of the related work is incredibly complex and, as a result, agricultural education has really exploded over the last couple decades or so.

Thu, 2009-04-09 13:59

Bookish Agrarian

If that's what I wrote, it is certianly not what I meant. My experience is more that people seem to think that if you farm, or do manual labour, others see you as poorly educated and generally as dumb as a post. Many farmers I know, especially younger farmers (and remember the average age of farmers is approaching 60) usually have college or universtity degrees.

I do think there is an antagonism towards education that is revealed in all kinds of ways. The most prominent is the elevation of George W. Bush and his anti-intellectualism.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:02

Tommy_Paine

I agree. And, my co-workers have no problem going back to get high school degrees, or take a class in hydraulics, robotics, etc. In fact, they line up for it.

But that's, excuse my pedantry, education. I'm talking about learning for it's own sake, and not being comfortable conversing in such aquired, non utilitarian knowledge.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:07

Tommy_Paine

"If that's what I wrote, it is certianly not what I meant."

Sorry. Perhaps I just took something you said, and ran with it because it seemed to present what I wanted it to present. But, I remember you saying you get looks when you use "ten dollar words", and it set me off on this trail.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:07

Bookish Agrarian

That's sort of what I was getting at with the anti-intellectualism.

Here's a small example. We have plans to take our kids to We Will Rock You the kitschy Queen musical while in Toronto. My son was unimpressed with going to see a 'musical' even though he sings along with his Queen cd all the time. Why I ask, "it's a play and all my friends say a play is stupid"

This is a kid who has seen dozens of theatre productions from Stratford, to regional and local theatre, but now they are stupid.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:12

Bookish Agrarian

Tommy_Paine wrote:

"If that's what I wrote, it is certianly not what I meant."

Sorry. Perhaps I just took something you said, and ran with it because it seemed to present what I wanted it to present. But, I remember you saying you get looks when you use "ten dollar words", and it set me off on this trail.

That's often when I am speaking to urban audiences. It sort of like, awh look at the cute farmer he's so funny with those big words. It is about their expectations and the reality.

I think though you are right. There is a strong current of anti-education that is sometimes hard to fathom.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:15

Tommy_Paine

"My son was unimpressed with going to see a 'musical' even though he sings along with his Queen cd all the time. Why I ask, "it's a play and all my friends say a play is stupid"

This is a kid who has seen dozens of theatre productions from Stratford, to regional and local theatre, but now they are stupid."

You can always count on me to blame the rich, the powers that be for the oppression of the working class, but this seems to be something we are doing to ourselves.

And, speaking of oppression, I have to leave this and go to work.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:18

#10

Caissa

I grew up in a working class neighbourhood where in junior high it wasn't considered cool to be "intelligent". That was something the upper middle class kids who were bussed in did. There was obvious class divisions and conflict. I earned the affectionate nickname "bonehead" from my working class peeps for my interest in school.

Thu, 2009-04-09 14:23

#11

Star Spangled C...

Caissa wrote:

I earned the affectionate nickname "bonehead" from my working class peeps for my interest in school.

Michelle Obama was speaking with students (virtually all black) at a school in Washington last week and was recalling how when she was a student in the south side of Chicago and was a good student, she used to take a lot of shit for supposedly "acting white." It's bullshit attitudes like this that are holding way too many people back.

Thu, 2009-04-09 15:18

#12

Unionist

You mean Michelle Obama's attitude?

Thu, 2009-04-09 15:35

#13

Star Spangled C...

What do you have against Michelle Obama's attitude? She seems like a pretty great role model to me.

Thu, 2009-04-09 15:41

#14

Unionist

Yeah, I think if young people just paid attention in school and worked hard, they too could become President! And/or spouse thereof. It's just their wrong attitudes holding them back.

Thu, 2009-04-09 15:43

#15

Star Spangled C...

Well, it worked out pretty nicely for Mrs. Obama, didn't it? And she is more than just the spouse of the president. She's a Princeton and harvard educated lawyer, former senior administrator of a major hospital and successfully did this while raising two young girls. I think it's great that she's out there sharing her story with people and providing some inspiration.

Thu, 2009-04-09 19:51

#16

Bookish Agrarian

I can say that the brainer moniker was one that certainly got thrown my way.

I was placed in a special class, made up of students from across many schools for the 'brainers'. I was one of only a couple of working class kids. I stuck out like a sore thumb and was always uncomfortable because my frame of reference was so different.

I finally convinced my Mom and Dad to let me go to my local school for Grade 8. On the first day of school I showed up before my records did. So I was placed in a 'non-brainer' class. When my records showed up they tried really hard to convince to go into this other class. Not they would admit that it was a streamed class. Why did I get put in that first class upon arrival. Well of course my address. Someone from there can't be too smart after all.

Thu, 2009-04-09 20:22

#17

Stephen Gordon

In the US, Harvard's Roland Fryer has found some evidence that one of the reasons that black students do poorly in school is peer effects: black kids who do well are accused of 'acting white' and are socially ostracised:

Quote:

There is a debate among social scientists regarding the existence of a peer externality commonly referred to as 'acting white.' Using a newly available data set (the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health), which allows one to construct an objective measure of a student's popularity, we demonstrate that there are large racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement; our (albeit narrow) definition of 'acting white.' The effect is intensified among high achievers and in schools with more interracial contact, but non-existent among students in predominantly black schools or private schools. The patterns in the data appear most consistent with a two-audience signaling model in which investments in education are thought to be indicative of an individual's opportunity costs of peer group loyalty. Other models we consider, such as self-sabotage among black youth or the presence of an oppositional culture, all contradict the data in important ways.

It seems to me as though that this is unlikely to be a phenomenon unique to US inner-city blacks.

Thu, 2009-04-09 20:31

#18

Bookish Agrarian

I should mention that when I was in that special class in a special school we were taken on all kinds of field trips to places like the ROM, AGO, the McMichael Collection, Fort Henry and so on. All kinds of places that my friends in my neighbourhood were never given the opportunity to experience. That, even then, has always struck me as particularly symbolic of what is wrong in terms of opportunities for people in our society and is probably why I am a progressive today.(assuming anyone would see me as such).

I guess that particular plan in social engineering backfired.

Fri, 2009-04-10 21:04

#19

Farmpunk

Similar experience to BA. The programs that streamed smarties when I was in public and high school were called "enrichment" programs. I didn't make the grade. But that wasn't because of my address or what my parents did. It was more likely because I didn't have much use for school back then.

Now that I'm dragging up memories of school... I do remember a lot of classes being split into groups and segments from about grade seven and up. The "bad" kids were lumped together and then once high school rolled around they were streamed into "general" level courses and "shop", whereas the smarties went into "advanced". There were probably some classist overtones in how kids were streamed but I'm not confident enough in my recollections to nail that down.

Even in my small town rural public and high schools there were few farm kids. Lots of rural ones, but not a lot of farmers. I used to catch a lot of flack in school for missing the first several weeks in September during our harvest period. That started in grade seven.

I have a university degree but it's not in the ag field. Going to university as a farmer - and missing big chunks of classtime in September once again - was an entirely different experience.

The stubborn streak of anti-intellectualism (where's George V with some Bageant quotes?) in rural people probably comes out of linking high falutin' thinkin' with city slickers. And I occasionally find myself dipping into redneck mode when dealing with people I consider over the top urbane. It's a reflexive fallback into a stereotype, and is occasionally useful. Truthful, in some senses, as well. I do own guns, drive a 4x4 pickup, and drink large quantities of beer out of cans that I smash on my forehead when they're empty. And sometimes I play-act being a redneck to lure people into discussions before turning on the smarts.

Fri, 2009-04-10 21:16

#20

Bookish Agrarian

What I like to do is make up colourful country sayings from time to time, just see if they catch on. It is very childish but it gives me no end of amusement.

It is sort of like my partner when asked if we had Angus beef at the market replying - 'oh no, we don't sell that stuff we have 100% Hereford beef." She was right in suspecting the person had no idea what an Angus or a Hereford was. They became repeat customers while they were at their cottage.

Sat, 2009-04-11 08:38

#21

ElizaQ

Ha ha BA. I would love to hear some of your country sayings. I can just imagine.

Sat, 2009-04-11 08:47

#22

Refuge

Tommy_Paine wrote:

I've met farmers and workers in the city that range from distrustfull or hostile to the notion, and to fellow farmers and workers who engage in recreational learning, to the outright revelling in ignorance, as if it was a badge of honour.........I'm talking about learning for it's own sake, and not being comfortable conversing in such aquired, non utilitarian knowledge.

Personally I think it is because schools are not set up to teach kids to learn. Schools are set up to warehouse kids during the day when their parents are (normally) at work and get them to memorize a bunch of stuff and spit it out. People are told when they go to school - this is learning. So people start to hate learning because it isn't real learning, just studying for the test.

I have a rampant ability to learn, not because of school. In fact I was tested int the "enriched" level but never quite made it there because I was to busy doing my own learning projects and always ignoring what we had to do in school. I learned everything that I had to in school but most of it was not by copying math questions out of a text book or memorizing history dates it was by getting out there, figuring out the context of the history, figuring out the applications of the math problems, and asking why. This is a question that is not to popular in the schools.

Right now I have several learnings on the go, in behavioural research, solar energy, gardening, the philosphical concept of bodhisattvas, how the history of occupied countries effects the people both on the intruder side and the occupied side, bicycling and strength training, how it helps and the nutritional requirements, foods what's in them, what's safe.

These aren't projects to learn prescribed things from prescribed places this is my living breathing life.

School has a tendency to kill this desire for learning and substituting a desire to do well on the test. I have only been able to have such a desire to learn because I refused to do a lot in school. I did enough to get me by but it was never the place that I actually learned.

Sat, 2009-04-11 08:48

#23

Unionist

Great post, Refuge, thanks for sharing that.

Sat, 2009-04-11 08:54

#24

Boom Boom

Rural folks in my experience are educated in what they need to know - about survival, about living in harsh conditions, and usually are technically very astute - they need to be able to repair and maintain the machinery they use in their everyday work. I live in an isolated fishing community on Quebec's Lower North Shore, and virtually everyone along the coast has built their own homes from scratch - even cutting the wood themselves, although in the last twenty years or so wood supplies have been brought in on cargo ship. At one time they even built their own fishing boats, but nowadays with the lucrative crab fishery boats are being purchased ready-to-run more often. But the fishermen do their own maintenance and repair of these sometimes expensive and complicated crafts. There are no commercial garages on the coast, so car and truck repair, as well as two-stroke engine repair (skidoos and ATVs) are all done by their owners. I'd say these self-taught folks are as intelligent as anyone, and educated in their own right. I have a college diploma, a BA and Master's degree, but I can barely hold my own here against these guys! Oh, and just about everyone on the coast now owns and uses a computer and surfs the 'Net.

Sat, 2009-04-11 10:45

#25

Tommy_Paine

"School has a tendency to kill this desire for learning and substituting a desire to do well on the test. I have only been able to have such a desire to learn because I refused to do a lot in school. I did enough to get me by but it was never the place that I actually learned."

You know, it's easy and popular to blame the schools and or teachers. However, I bet all of us here (who are a different kind of person) can point to a number of teachers who encouraged whatever it is inside us that makes us fond of learning. Those teachers were there for everyone. We chose to allow them to influence us further, when others didn't.

I think it comes from our parents and extended family. It's a cultural thing.

And, I think it's a huge problem for working class people that it seems part of ours that a joy of learning is squelched by family and peers.

If I could try to put my finger on it, I'd say it's a kind of "misery loves company" phenomena. As if those around you that try to castigate or make one some kind of social outsider for learning are trying to keep you in the group.

Sat, 2009-04-11 11:09

#26

Tommy_Paine

"Similar experience to BA. The programs that streamed smarties when I was in public and high school were called "enrichment" programs. I didn't make the grade."

My memories of the practice of streaming are different. In my elementary school, kids were skipped ahead at certain junctures. I don't ever remember one of the brighter kids actually moving to a different school, identified as enriched.

However, I do remember kids being streamed into special schools designed to teach them how to be good cashiers, or carpenters. And their proper place in the scheme of things.

The first girl I ever loved was Jerry, who lived next door. I was about 5. She was, I guess, 13 or 14. I loved her because when we talked, she was the only big kid who wasn't eager to laugh at my questions or observations, and pounce on all the errors 5 year olds are prone to. Jerry went to a streamed class because, as she told me, "I'm slow."

I remember sitting with her on the porch, examining her left forearm after one of the many skin grafts she had to have. You have to get skin grafts if your arm gets in one of those big steam presses for clothes they had at the school for slow kids.

She said it hurt a lot, when she came back from one of her many trips to the hospital.

A chum of mine was weeded out to go to that same school when we were in grade 7. I guess his grades were bad. But I knew he wasn't slow, or even less than bright.

Sat, 2009-04-11 11:47

#27

remind

Many years ago now, I lived in a condo complex in a medium sized northern BC community, and there was a woman who had a son, my daughters age, and she would bring him over to play. Her father's family had come there to avoid the draft for their sons, like many other families there.

Anyhowww..I was astounded the first time I heard her berate her son for asking "why" or "what's that". Apparently, in their family those were questions you were not allowed to ask. She said it served no purpose and was annoying. Well, of course that did not float with me and I challenged her premise. And correctly found out that my assumption was correct, she did not know the answers and was ashamed to say that to him. Finally got through to her that they could enjoy learning together from the library, when he had questions she could not answer. She had bee "home schooled" out in the bush by parents who were religious whack survivalists. I consider her and her family my first contact with the right wing nuttery world from the USA. But her son learned, and he learned somemore, and today, he is a lawyer of the human type. ;)

That people have been brainwashed to ignore their own best interests educationally, is amazing. The blaming of teachers who have to follow set curriculm is even more amazing to me. Sure enough, there are bad teachers out there, but not everyone of them is. Sure, the educational system leaves a lot to be desired, and I would prefer the Rudolph Steiner model, but still the basics are there that we can use to further inform ourselves.

I think the rural urban divide is created by urban people, so they feel better about themselves. ;)

Sat, 2009-04-11 12:02

#28

Tommy_Paine

Never heard the term "citiot", Remind? I think some rural people do their best to maintain the chasm, too.

Sat, 2009-04-11 12:26

#29

remind

Nope, never heard of it, though I do agree that some rural people do, as I said working against their own best interests and that of their children. It has been my experience that some in rural areas do not want their children to grow up and move away, and thus certain portions, actually keep their children ill-educated because of that so called desire to protect theire children from the evils of the city, it keeps them close to "home". That this closeting has had devastating effects, in some cases, seems not to be realized.

Sat, 2009-04-11 12:46

#30

ElizaQ

Tommy_Paine wrote:

Never heard the term "citiot", Remind? I think some rural people do their best to maintain the chasm, too.

I have. I have heard it and other synomons used on several occassions including on where it was referencing me though in that case it was along the lines of at least you are not a typical citiot. The thing is that in the times it was used it really did fit, they WERE being idiots. Having experienced moving from urban to rural and the various stereotypes that one encounters from both places I can say that terms like that are derived from honest experience and not just from some pervasive made up stereotype. I know it goes both ways but overall I would have to say that terms like that evolve from a certain sense or entitlement, superiority and snobbery that does seem to come more from the urban knowit all types that come in with the attitude that they know best, and treat people as "quaint" and "cute" and can basically do whatever the hell they want while being pretty much clueless to what the hell they are talking about in reference to the area they moved to or are visiting. It is about attitude more then anything else. Where I live it is connected with some cottagers and environmental problems and other tourists that come into the area to party hearty on the weekends.

I have even experienced it myself even from some of my own city friends who come to visit or keep track of what I am doing now. There are a few that I do not even bother associating with any more because I got durn sick of comments like "Oh it must be so hard living with all those people, what do you talk about?" and them thinking that what I am a doing is like some sort of weird county caricature with one saying that she thought it was beneath me and I could do so much better. She actually asked if I thought I had wasted my time in University cause now all I was doing was growing veggies.

When I moved here I did recieve a similar sort of wariness from some people because of the "city person" stereotypes but once it became clear that I did not fall into the judgemental category that disappeared.

I never really understood the whole rural urban divide thing until I moved to a rural situation. I can better see now where it dervives from. Before I made the change I would have totally disagreed with what Remind said. Now not so much. It might be a broad generalization but there is a lot of truth to it as much as I do hate saying that.

Sat, 2009-04-11 13:09

#31

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
It is sort of like my partner when asked if we had Angus beef at the market replying - 'oh no, we don't sell that stuff we have 100% Hereford beef." She was right in suspecting the person had no idea what an Angus or a Hereford was.

What is it with Angus beef? Lots of places advertise that they serve Angus beef only. I don't get it. It's kinda like a commercial that's running on AM640 these days, where a garage representative is trying to coax a customer into an oil change, saying his company's oil is made from only the best dinosaurs.

I went to both city and rural schools, by the way. In some city schools I applied myself relatively more than in others, but in the rural school I definitely aimed low. I had to quit going to school in Grade 12 and finish by correspondence school to bring my average up to what was needed to be accepted into university. At the rate I was going by attending school, I could have failed.

Sat, 2009-04-11 13:28

#32

remind

Eliza, I have lived urban rural, rural urban and urban rural several times, and have examined the dynamics for most, if not all of my life, and have come to the conclusion urbanites have the worst biases. Having said that, some rural people tend to vote/work against their own best interests more so than do urbanites, and this is because IMV, city folk, working in their own best political and capitaslistic interests, sell BS to them. Lack of skulldudgery education plays a part in this. ;)

Sat, 2009-04-11 13:48

#33

N.R.KISSED

Tommy_Paine wrote:

"School has a tendency to kill this desire for learning and substituting a desire to do well on the test. I have only been able to have such a desire to learn because I refused to do a lot in school. I did enough to get me by but it was never the place that I actually learned."

You know, it's easy and popular to blame the schools and or teachers. However, I bet all of us here (who are a different kind of person) can point to a number of teachers who encouraged whatever it is inside us that makes us fond of learning. Those teachers were there for everyone. We chose to allow them to influence us further, when others didn't.

I think it comes from our parents and extended family. It's a cultural thing.

And, I think it's a huge problem for working class people that it seems part of ours that a joy of learning is squelched by family and peers.

If I could try to put my finger on it, I'd say it's a kind of "misery loves company" phenomena. As if those around you that try to castigate or make one some kind of social outsider for learning are trying to keep you in the group.

I would disagree I think it is far more common for spirits to be crushed than inspired within an educational system whose function is more indoctrination and control than focused on the joy of learning.This isn't to blame teachers or suggest that they are bad people but their ability to inspire is limited both by their training and the realities of the system. I think it is an extremely rare person that could overcome these obstacles I know I couldn't.

I think certain groups antagonism to the educational system is based on their negative experience of the system. The manner in which race or class bias plays out in the educational system is well documented. The educational system is a main source for the transmission of culture both through explicit and implicit methods.

Ability to attend university has always been more dependent on Parent's ability to pay than scholastic ability so their isn't a lot of motivation to excell in a game you know is fixed.

I won't even touch some of the appalling assumptions operating around race that were mentioned above, that would take an entire thread and derail this one.

Sat, 2009-04-11 14:46

#34

Loretta

The belief I encountered with my rural EX-in-laws is that education leads to being taught ideas that go against common sense and thus, is dangerous.

Sat, 2009-04-11 14:57

#35

Bookish Agrarian

Most of the teachers I have encountered in today's classrooms would not recognize the description of themselves as soul destroyers. I think we have to be very careful supplanting our educational experiences on the modern classroom.

In many ways we can not even imagine the world young people will inherit given the exponential growth in technology. Faster, smaller, more ubiquitous.

The vast majority of teachers I have encountered are amazing people who are doing their best, in often very difficult cirumstances, with little support from home, to help kids be able be adaptive problems solvers who think for themselves. Are all teachers perfect, is the system perfect? Of course not, but I would be willing to bet most people who are really critical of teachers couldn't last in a classroom until lunchtime.

And al-Qa'bong Angus is all about the marketing. We told our story to our Hereford Association and others have started doing it too. If you go into a store or restuarant in the future and they are advertising Hereford beef you will know where it came from.

Sat, 2009-04-11 15:03

#36

Bookish Agrarian

ElizaQ wrote:

Ha ha BA. I would love to hear some of your country sayings. I can just imagine.

My favourite recent one was "that's like closing the gate after the cattle are in town having a beer at the tavern". Totally made up on the spot, but I actually heard someone use it a few weeks later. I was just busting a gut.

Another favourite one I made up is "you can lead a cow to water, but they are just going to break the water bowl when you aren't looking." Makes no sense at all, but the crowd I used it on acted like is was some kind of profound rural wisdom.

We all have to have our amusements when you give variations of the same speech on why the current food system sucks to people for whom the information is new, but for you it sounds like you've said it a million times.

Sat, 2009-04-11 16:32

#37

Refuge

I agree with what N.R.Kissed wrote.

Tommy-Paine wrote:
You know, it's easy and popular to blame the schools and or teachers. However, I bet all of us here (who are a different kind of person) can point to a number of teachers who encouraged whatever it is inside us that makes us fond of learning. Those teachers were there for everyone. We chose to allow them to influence us further, when others didn't.

I think it comes from our parents and extended family. It's a cultural thing.

And, I think it's a huge problem for working class people that it seems part of ours that a joy of learning is squelched by family and peers.

It may be easy for your to blame teachers, it is however not easy for me to blame teachers, nor did I blame teachers, I blamed the school system. If you read my post you will see nowhere in there did I reference teachers specifically, only the school system. I have little doubt that the teachers believe they are doing what is right and what is best for the kids because this what they have been taught is what is right and best for the kids but it is not necessarily what is actually what is right for the kids. This is just the way things are because it is the way things have always been.

I am not denying that there are other issues that are involved with the bias against learning. Does mean the school system, that is set up to test kids and not to actually do what is best for each individual child to encourage them to learn, does not contribute to the fact that people don't like to learn?

I think that by giving the school system a pass it is an easy way to let them off the hook. They are in a large part responsible for children's learning (30-35 hours a week of it), if there are attitudes that interfere with learning school need to be examined to see what part they play.

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Most of the teachers I have encountered in today's classrooms would not recognize the description of themselves as soul destroyers. I think we have to be very careful supplanting our educational experiences on the modern classroom.......

The vast majority of teachers I have encountered are amazing people who are doing their best, in often very difficult cirumstances, with little support from home, to help kids be able be adaptive problems solvers who think for themselves. Are all teachers perfect, is the system perfect? Of course not, but I would be willing to bet most people who are really critical of teachers couldn't last in a classroom until lunchtime.

See what I said above about teacher as saying that anyone said they are soul destroyers is a straw man, no one said anything even close to that.

It is exactly these circumstances that I talk about that make the job of being a teacher to actually be able to give each child what they need almost impossible and leads to situations where children are not encouraged to learn but to test well.

Please don't lump me in with most people who are critical of the school system (as I did not say teachers) if you are saying that most would not last in the classroom until lunchtime. In my job I deal quite regularily with the school system and children in general. My mother wanted me to be a teacher and I refused because she was a teacher and I saw all the crap she had to put up with in the school with government policies, increased class sizes, lower funding, attacks by the government to make it seem like teachers were getting a free ride. Also Ontario put in province wide cirriculumn that is utterly ridicioulous (after my mom saw it she said she didn't think the people who made it up had even met a grade two student) and standardized testing so it became the norm to teach to the test rather than to help students learn.

I know what I am talking about when I critize the school system, it is not an "easy" thing for me to do, in is a very fustrating thing to have to come up against dealing with this with the kids that I work with of whom I actually set up programs which teach them how to learn and empower them and to not be able to carry it over to the classroom is fustrating. So I watch the kid after kid that I work with and who does so well when they have an individualized program set up for them where they are learning, growing and gaining confindence in themselves and their ability to experiment and learn from their environments for them to be put in a place that does not allow this to happen for them for 6-7 hours a day. They end up crying because they don't have any friends at school because they don't have the proper supports in place to help the child to be in a situation where they can learn to get along with the kids in their classrooms, feeling miserable becaue they keep failing their tests because they don't have enough support to give them the initail one on one teaching of the material because they can't afford to have that in the classroom. And when they do have support there is not proper training and support of the support staff so they end up not knowing what to do or taking a two hour seminar and then they are left to try and figure out how to put in a program after 2 hours that took years of reasearch to build.

The school system is a large part of a child's learning experience and if you want to look at why children and then adults don't like to learn, the school can not be left out because people don't want to critize teachers or see that when they send their own children to school it might not be the best thing for that child.

Sat, 2009-04-11 18:01

#38

rural - Francesca rural - Francesca's picture

So many concerns, not enough train of thought to make sense.

Living rural means you don't have access to larger museums, theatre and such cultural activities

Living rural tends to mean lower disposable income, so school trips are too expensive and need to prioritize

Rural families do want their children to stay close, but so do urban, it's just the odds of that happening in the city are better.
My friend is the manager of our local Galaxy Cinemas. Last winter they ran Leaf games as a simalcast with very little uptake.
This year he fought for and got the Met Opera series, against the thoughts of his big city bosses, who felt it wouldn't fly up here, for most of the assumptions written here.
Well it regularly sells out and his "booker" has told him whatever special event he wants, he can get.
I love going to them, seeing things I'd never thought I'd ever see.
When there is a cultre that rural continues to pay the price of successful cities, the last rescource they want you to have is their children.

Sat, 2009-04-11 18:15

#39

N.R.KISSED

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Most of the teachers I have encountered in today's classrooms would not recognize the description of themselves as soul destroyers. I think we have to be very careful supplanting our educational experiences on the modern classroom.

In many ways we can not even imagine the world young people will inherit given the exponential growth in technology. Faster, smaller, more ubiquitous.

The vast majority of teachers I have encountered are amazing people who are doing their best, in often very difficult cirumstances, with little support from home, to help kids be able be adaptive problems solvers who think for themselves. Are all teachers perfect, is the system perfect? Of course not, but I would be willing to bet most people who are really critical of teachers couldn't last in a classroom until lunchtime.

I'm not sure if you were refering to my post but if you were you might wish to note this part

"This isn't to blame teachers or suggest that they are bad people but their ability to inspire is limited both by their training and the realities of the system. I think it is an extremely rare person that could overcome these obstacles I know I couldn't."

It is worth noting though that nice, good intentioned well-meaning people can still cause harm if they are operating under dominant models of pedagogical theory and practice and within systemic realities. This is true of people operating within any system, education, mental health social services. All systems are part of the broader social and economic system and operate under and reinforce assumptions of dominant ideologies and narratives. The educational system has a function within the broader social system to produce compliant workers and consumers. Again that doesn't mean there aren't those within the system trying to make a difference, I just think the odds are strongly stacked against them. Even at the University level it is exceedingly difficult for Profs to operate under a framework of critical pedagogy.

Sat, 2009-04-11 18:18

#40

al-Qa'bong

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

And al-Qa'bong Angus is all about the marketing.

Yeah, I know; what I don't get is people falling for it.

You'd think that snob appeal would work better with breeds such as Limousin (which originate close to the region where fois gras comes from), Charolais or Blonde d'Aquitaine. "Angus" has connotations of haggis and oatmeal.

Sat, 2009-04-11 19:49

#41

Bookish Agrarian

No dissing the Haggis

Ye Pow'rs wha mak mankind your care,
And dish them out their bill o' fare,
Auld Scotland wants nae skinking ware
That jaups in luggies;
But, if ye wish her gratefu' prayer,
Gie her a haggis!

Sat, 2009-04-11 20:45

#42

500_Apples

I was in the enriched program for some classes (Math, English) and in the lower classes for anything related to Hebrew/religion, where I did bad.

I sort of see people's criticisms, that these divisions are elitist. On the other hand I think it's important to liberate as many students as possible from the drudgery of the regular classes. High school English class was horrible, I did bad actually, I was never good at memorizing large passages from Shakespeare and then repeating them ad verbatim. When I got to CEGEP I opted for some higher level classes and we were introduced to fascinating ideas like putting the literature in a historical context.

I'm of the opinion harder, "enriched" classes should be available.

Mon, 2009-04-13 11:40

#43

Tommy_Paine

"It may be easy for your to blame teachers, it is however not easy for me to blame teachers, nor did I blame teachers, I blamed the school system. If you read my post you will see nowhere in there did I reference teachers specifically, only the school system."

Sorry for letting this slide. No, it wasn't my intention to pin that on you, specifically. It's just a common public view, and that's why I didn't specifically reference it to you-- but I can understand why you took it that way. I was sloppy.

Yeah, school does seem to squelch all the fun from learning. And there is some blame to be shared out not just with the system, but with teachers too. However, I was side stepping that aspect here, centering more on what we are doing as a culture.

Rural Francesca brings up a good point about influences like museums and theatres being scarce in rural areas. I'd add that while they are not as scarce in places like London and other urban centers, they don't compare with what's available in the Center of the Universe.

I guess one has to expect that to some degree, due to population densities making things more economic. But it strikes me, on the subject of museums, that a place like the ROM has much more in storage than it does on display. It would be good for kids to have easy exposure to exhibits if the ROM, for example, had subsidiary museums sprinkled outside the GTA.

Mon, 2009-04-13 11:56

#44

remind

When I was young there used to be a museum train that travelled across Canada, where are initiatives like that theses days? And tommy a really you are talking about city people doing what is best for city people, the rest be damned.

Mon, 2009-04-13 12:02

#45

ElizaQ

The ROM does have travelling exhibitions that smaller museums can make use of. Our local museum has a big one this summer about dinosaurs though I'm not sure where it comes from.

Mon, 2009-04-13 14:23

#46

Refuge

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Sorry for letting this slide. No, it wasn't my intention to pin that on you, specifically. It's just a common public view, and that's why I didn't specifically reference it to you-- but I can understand why you took it that way. I was sloppy.

Yeah, school does seem to squelch all the fun from learning. And there is some blame to be shared out not just with the system, but with teachers too. However, I was side stepping that aspect here, centering more on what we are doing as a culture.

No problem, I do agree that culture plays a big part (and just to dip into the school system for a second again I believe that is why the schools are set up so badly because they are a reflection of attitudes about learning that come from our culture as well as the perpetrator of the attitudes).

I think our culture tends to see a result or answer as the important part. Since learning is not a result but a process it is not valued in the society. That's great that you learned something but what can you do with it? What does it mean right now? We get so many answers all over the place right now - have a question, google it, instant answer - that we forget that there is a process of learning that led to that answer.

We are also very goal oriented and when we get an answer we sometimes forget that the person who came to that answer may not have been asking the same question when they started out. When someone actually sets out to learn something sometimes you have start to learn with no idea where it will take you, ie no goal in mind except learning - one of my favourite sayings is "better to have no view, then you stay open enough to accept whatever comes along without conceptual prejudices".

Just to tie in with the Museum problem, yes I definetly see access as being an issue but also I think that city people tend to overvalue their museums.

I think a big divide between attitudes of Urban and Rural being educated or uneducated in that Urban people think they have it made because they have access to the best museums, experts and cultural exhibitions. They tend to undervalue the learning that goes on away from those places and people, some of the best learning about food and agriculture was when I lived on a farm and watched how the farm ran on a day to day basis. I got to know the animals and the crops and how they grew and were harvested. Living in a small town also provides opportunities for learning that are unheard of in the city. I learned a lot about business and running businesses from two women that I met and talked to me about how they run their business - something that I have never had the opportunity to do in the city. I have also learned way more about Art by visiting art fairs that go on in rural areas where you actually get to talk to the artists about their process and why they price the way they do than I have from visiting the AGO. Yet these learning experiences are not valued as much among Urban folk.

There is a place for being exposed to dinosaurs, seeing great works of Art that could never be viewed outside a museum, and the fact that money and location is impeding rural families from going to these places is an issue. But it isn't the only or even best way of being educated. I think one of the cultural issues with learning is people's inability to look at the fact that learning takes many forms and no one way of learning is any better or worse. I don't want to fall into the trap of assuming because the city folk say that this is the most important way to learn that I actually believe it.

In general people are afraid to start learning because to start learning you have to admit that you don't know. People are afraid to feel stupid or look stupid and when people are starting out with a bias against their learning (well you didn't learn from someone with an MA in business just from a couple of women who run a small buisness in a little town) they tend to not even want to start. So if you can't go to a person or place with cultural value, or are afraid to go, a lot of people are hostile or just give up and stay stuck in what they know because they are afraid to even start because they don't want to look stupid.