"Harel says she fears ethnic boroughs"

24 posts / 0 new

Wed, 2009-03-11 11:45

toddsschneider

"Already too strong, she argues: Ex-PQ minister says Montrealers should feel part of whole city, not a district"

[Louise Harel] went on to say: "If we go from 19 to 10 boroughs, but these boroughs remain quasi-municipalities as they are now, we will end up in the worst of situations because we'll have cities ... an Italian city, a Haitian city, an anglophone city, an Arab city - Ville St. Laurent, a Jewish city, etc." ...

Alan DeSousa, the mayor of St. Laurent borough, said he doesn't take kindly to Harel's characterization of his community as an "Arab city" ..."In fact, St. Laurent is a microcosm of what Montreal is moving toward. And to just (create) a caricature of the city as a unidimensional city is wrong and doesn't take into account the diversity we have in the community" ...

However, Harel explained in an interview with The Gazette that she meant that she wants everyone, regardless of ethnic origin, to feel a part of the same city, and not just feel like citizens of their respective boroughs, each of which has the identity of the majority group, she said ...

Wed, 2009-03-11 11:57

Michelle

Instead, those boroughs should all embrace the identity of the larger majority group, right? This melting pot vs. salad bowl debate is so old and so annoying.

Thu, 2009-03-12 20:30

lagatta

So is insinuating that Louise Harel, a longtime exponent of the PQ's left wing, is a covert racist.

Harel's longterm companion is Palestinian and she has long been involved in Palestinian causes, such as Medical Aid for Palestine, and antiracist causes.

There are many people who believe creating "ethnic ghettoes" is not a healthy response to the racism of the broader society, whatever that society is, and that these become little fiefs for power brokers.

I'm not speaking up to defend this particular politician or her choice to remain as a left caution to the PQ, but against the angryphones who will leap at the most innocent thing she is saying to depict her as a racist and xenophobe, when she is anything but.

http://www.nccar.ca/publications/10_11_04_biwk.html

Le Festival du Monde Arabe de Montréal, 5e édition, présente le film de Tahani Rached, "Soraida, une femme de Palestine"

Une production de l'Office national du film du Canada (Version originale arabe, sous-titrée en fran�ais)

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Sous la co-présidence d'honneur de mesdames Louise Harel, députée d'Hochelaga-Maisonneuve et Leila Shahid, déléguée générale de la Palestine en France et en présence de Soraida Hussein, personnage principal du film.

Soraida, une femme de Palestine raconte la bataille singulière d'une mère palestinienne vivant dans la ville de Ramallah, en Cisjordanie occupée. Elle s'interroge sur la fa�on de ne pas perdre son humanité en vivant sous l'occupation dans un climat de violence. Un vibrant plaidoyer contre l'occupation d'un peuple.

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Thu, 2009-03-12 21:15

martin dufresne

If we are going to suffer toddsschneider on issues of ethnic relations, I think we should bring in Mr. Levant or Mr. Zundel so he doesn't feel too lonely. A mere "accommodement raisonnable", yes?

Fri, 2009-03-13 08:20

toddsschneider

I don`t know whether Louise ("some of my best friends are Arabs") Harel is a covert racist, but she is an open ignoramus. The plurality of residents of the Montreal borough of Saint-Laurent, where I choose to live, self-identify their ethnicity on the federal census as Canadian. The second most popular answer is French. Lebanese, the closest you get to "Arab" on the form, and the third most common choice, gains a whopping 10.28 percent of the vote.

Never mind the facts on the ground; Harel doesn't. But why does she single out my borough to which to attach an ethnic description, when she doe not locate other cultural communities so specifically? It's no secret that "Arabs" have lately been the favorite whipping boys and girls of the nativists.

Harel may not be a racist, but she is a demagogue. The issues she was supposed to be addressing had to do with municipal structure, not demographics. Her type trotted out the same tired and false arguments the last time she lost the merger-demerger battles; then it was supposed to be a francophone versus anglophone cleavage.

She hasn't matured in her game a bit, just moved the goalposts.

Fri, 2009-03-13 10:25

lagatta

Louise Harel is not a nativist, nor is she an ignoramus.

I don't particularly agree with what she said about boroughs (my beef is that Villeray and Petite-Patrie are not in the same borough, when they are so similar) but I disagree more about those who jumped on her for an innocent observation. Lots of pols have been commenting about the boroughs (arrondissements) and how to improve them.

And I agree with Harel about the mergers. One city one island, and no golden ghettoes for the rich of any ethnic origin.

Sat, 2009-03-14 05:42

toddsschneider

http://tinyurl.com/c9yoaq

... Maybe Harel should get out more. There are no Arab cities in Montreal, or anglo or Haitian ones, either. The boroughs, even as they're now constituted, are already ethnically diverse. Notre Dame de Grâce, for example, is no longer a monochromatic anglo bastion and Rivière des Prairies is as Haitian today as it is Italian (and as fiercely distinct as it was when the city of Montreal absorbed it decades ago).

Montreal is not without ethnic tensions, but the idea that it will descend into a kind of Balkans on the St. Lawrence is risible. That many Montrealers have strong attachments to their communities and neighbourhoods is a point in the city's favour. That some of those loyalties are enhanced by ethnic pride gives the city more pizazz than grief. And a measure of political control over community issues like recreation and snow removal is more likely to create a sense of belonging than one of alienation.

Harel's preference for one big city that speaks with one voice betrays suspicion of anything that doesn't fit into some sort of bureaucratically mandated organizational chart. It's a mindset that seems unable to grasp the notion of complementary loyalties. Just as there's no contradiction between being a proud Quebecer and a proud Canadian, there's no conflict in being a proud NDGer and a proud Montrealer. For most of us, it's as natural as breathing.

Sat, 2009-03-14 07:26

lagatta

That comment was made in the context of a broader one about arrondissements having too much power as opposed to the city itself. And I agree with Harel about that. Non-ethnic example: snow clearance. Somehow, as if by magic, when I walk across avenue du Parc to Outremont, at Hutchison (the arrondissement boundary) all the Outremont snow has been magically whisked away!

A lot of people in my neighbourhood (which is as multiethnic as Ville St-Laurent) feel the same way about the arrondissement mishmash, which means things like one side of Jean-Talon getting cleared while the other remains piled with snow for days.

NDG has the problem of being in the same borough as Côte-des-Neiges, though there is limited geographical contact between the two. Logically, NDG and Westmount should be in the same borough - Westmount and other rich enclaves should never have been allowed to demerge. Nothing to do with it being largely anglophone, I'd feel the same about Outremont had they gone for demerger.

The only group I hate is capitalists.

Thu, 2009-06-04 11:48

toddsschneider

"Former PQ cabinet minister Harel seeks Montreal mayor's job"

http://tinyurl.com/o98bf9

Former Parti Québécois cabinet minister Louise Harel is making a run for mayor of Montreal as head of the Vision Montreal party in next November's municipal election ...

Harel has been studying English at Bishops University, but when questioned by an English-speaking reporter Wednesday, she said, "En Anglais? Oh mon Dieu, tant tot," meaning "it's so early" ...

About 40 per cent of Montrealers do not call French their first language. Some voters ... think Harel's poor English will affect her chances of winning ...

Thu, 2009-06-04 15:48

#10

martin dufresne

Actually it's the CBC's pathetic French - and toddsschneider's predictable toadying to Angryphones' attempts to demonize Harel - that should be examined. No Francophone would ever say something like "tant tôt" to mean "so soon?". What Harel said was affirmative: "tantôt", a very common word, meaning "in a few minutes". It is common for politicians to give journalists the sound byte they are asking for in the language of their choice after a question period.

Dolts!

Thu, 2009-06-04 16:25

#11

Unionist

toddsschneider wrote:
From the CBC article:

Harel has been studying English at Bishops University, but when questioned by an English-speaking reporter Wednesday, she said, "En Anglais? Oh mon Dieu, tant tot," meaning "it's so early" ...

Todd, do you get the irony of this? Some CBC asshole reporter, trying to ridicule Harel's rather brave efforts to do interviews in English, and succeeding only in proving that the reporter doesn't know elementary French!!?? I see martin has already made that point.

I heard Harel interviewed on local CBC radio in English. It was difficult, sometimes painful, but she graciously rejected all offers by the interviewer (Bernard St-Laurent) to help her out and translate some tough bits for her.

Harel is a woman of principle and dignity. She is a long-time ally of workers, besides anything else. The pro-Liberal media have gone insane in record time, predicting that she will polarize the race between French and English, east and west, federalist and separatist, maybe evolutionist vs. creationist (not sure, that one may be coming yet...), pro-merger and de-merger...

I'm supporting her.

Thu, 2009-06-04 16:37

#12

500_Apples

She fears ethnic boroughs because jurisdictions with a french Canadian majority are not likely to pass partition resolutions.

Thu, 2009-06-04 17:57

#13

martin dufresne

"The pro-Liberal media have gone insane in record time, predicting that she will polarize the race between French and English, east and west, federalist and separatist, maybe evolutionist vs. creationist (not sure, that one may be coming yet...), pro-merger and de-merger..." and they are working hard to make their prediction a self-fulfilling prophecy, all the while pinning the blame for that on her.

Rhodesian politics 101...

As for "ethnic" boroughs, I think everyone in Montreal would rather aim for more ethnic integration. (Bring down Westmount and Upper Outremont rental values, and I predict it will happen in no time!)

Thu, 2009-06-04 18:40

#14

Bärlüer

I have taken the liberty of creating a new thread to discuss the candidacy of Harel/the municipal election in a context exempt of angryphone hysterics.

Sun, 2009-06-07 08:26

#15

Unionist

toddsschneider wrote:

Meanwhile, even the French media here have reported on her tortuous English. They must all be Liberal shills, too.

Her English is poor. Has someone denied that, or are you just feeling picked on?

Quote:
When you are a second-language speaker, and you are corrected, the gracious thing is not to refuse but to accept help, when offered in good faith.

Sigh, let's try again. She was being interviewed on [i]English language[/i] radio. Bernie offered to let her speak in French and translate some bits for her (not to "correct" her). She graciously declined, saying she wanted to do the interview in English. Are we communicating yet?

Sun, 2009-06-07 08:28

#16

toddsschneider

Unionist wrote:
Todd, do you get the irony of this? Some CBC asshole reporter, trying to ridicule Harel's rather brave efforts to do interviews in English, and succeeding only in proving that the reporter doesn't know elementary French!!?? ...

I heard Harel interviewed on local CBC radio in English. It was difficult, sometimes painful, but she graciously rejected all offers by the interviewer (Bernard St-Laurent) to help her out and translate some tough bits for her.

Of course, I got the irony straightaway, and reported the written French errors to the CBC website managers. They fixed it illico, if not thoroughly. Part of the solution, and all.

Meanwhile, even the French media here have reported on her tortuous English. They must all be Liberal shills, too.

When you are a second-language speaker, and you are offered help, the gracious thing is not to refuse it but to accept, when offered in good faith.

Sun, 2009-06-07 08:40

#17

toddsschneider

Unionist wrote:

Harel is a woman of principle and dignity. She is a long-time ally of workers, besides anything else ...

I'm supporting her.

And a woman of empty verbiage (q.v. her blog), amour-propre (aligning with a party with no real platform other than personalism), and opportunism (displacing a party "leader" in a backroom deal).

I'm critically supporting Projet Montreal, in my borough and/or my city, and have done for years.

Sun, 2009-06-07 08:47

#18

Unionist

Well, I may not support her after all. I was just reacting to the attacks on her.

Sun, 2009-06-07 10:56

#19

toddsschneider

martin dufresne wrote:

Actually it's the CBC's pathetic French - and toddsschneider's predictable toadying to Angryphones' attempts to demonize Harel - that should be examined. No Francophone would ever say something like "tant tôt" to mean "so soon?". What Harel said was affirmative: "tantôt", a very common word, meaning "in a few minutes". It is common for politicians to give journalists the sound byte they are asking for in the language of their choice after a question period.

Dolts!

To say nothing of your predictable name-calling. Lots of blame to go around without stooping to that.

Here's a soundbite the franco journalist failed to understand from Bill Tierney, well known anti-mergerite:

http://tinyurl.com/qy39to

Même chez les «anglos» de l'Ouest-de-l'Île on trouve des voix favorables à Mme Harel. «Ça va être le fun, ça va faire toute une élection», se réjouit Bill Tierney, maire de Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. Il ne se gêne pas pour chanter les louanges de la nouvelle adversaire du maire Tremblay. «Elle est très intelligente, elle sait comment utiliser la démocratie pour imposer ses idées, je l'admire beaucoup», dit-il.

Mais en même temps, il est réaliste : «Je crains que les choses ne soient plus difficiles pour Mme Harel que ce qu'elle pense, elle fera face à des résistances», prévoit-il.

Hardly favorable.

Sun, 2009-06-07 10:58

#20

martin dufresne

...a woman of empty verbiage (q.v. her blog), amour-propre (aligning with a party with no real platform other than personalism), and opportunism (displacing a party "leader" in a backroom deal).

Wow, want to take on her choice of dress and make-up while we're at it? (Come on ToddS... you know you want to...)

Blog copy isn't Throne Speech copy and, just between the two of us, how confident are you about your assessment of her "verbiage"? After all, she writes in French and after your uncritical relaying of the CBC's screamer - blatant misinterpretation, not to say misrepresentation of Harel's "tantôt" - and now your misreading of the meaning of "amour-propre" (which you seem to equate with egotism), I have my doubts...

As for Labonté his only plank was the one he was standing at the end of; the only "deal" involved was his bowing out.

You are grabbing at straws. You would be better-advised to try and convince your Project Montreal cronies to deal with Harel and try uploading PM's program into the empty shell of VM rather than split the anti-Tremblay vote.

But I forgot, you are "critical" supporter and probably not privy to any strategic "backroom"...

Sun, 2009-06-07 11:03

#21

martin dufresne

And what did the Franco journalist "fail to understand", oh you who would call the kettle black? Tierney sends a mixed message and it is relayed as such. Où est le problème?

Sun, 2009-06-07 11:29

#22

Unionist

This may have been irony rather than praise: "... elle sait comment utiliser la démocratie pour imposer ses idées ..."

Sun, 2009-06-07 11:49

#23

toddsschneider

Yes, it may have been irony, and Tierney may have been as subtle as a brick. One which the journo seems to have dropped on her own foot.

Sun, 2009-06-07 11:50

#24

toddsschneider

martin dufresne wrote:

...a woman of empty verbiage (q.v. her blog), amour-propre (aligning with a party with no real platform other than personalism), and opportunism (displacing a party "leader" in a backroom deal).

Wow, want to take on her choice of dress and make-up while we're at it? (Come on ToddS... you know you want to...)

Blog copy isn't Throne Speech copy and, just between the two of us, how confident are you about your assessment of her "verbiage"? After all, she writes in French and after your uncritical relaying of the CBC's screamer - blatant misinterpretation, not to say misrepresentation of Harel's "tantôt" - and now your misreading of the meaning of "amour-propre" (which you seem to equate with egotism), I have my doubts...

As for Labonté his only plank was the one he was standing at the end of; the only "deal" involved was his bowing out.

You are grabbing at straws. You would be better-advised to try and convince your Project Montreal cronies to deal with Harel and try uploading PM's program into the empty shell of VM rather than split the anti-Tremblay vote.

But I forgot, you are "critical" supporter and probably not privy to any strategic "backroom"...

Just a quotidian militant, that's me. But it was not me, but Projet leader Bergeron, who has disavowed any alliance with Vision, after consulting his party executive. Harel was offered the support of Projet but spurned it to join Vision. Read today's French press, as I have. And also read their comments on her pure wind.

Vote-splitting? Harel could have run as an "independent" with Projet support, and the mayoralty would be a two-way race. Oh yes, the small detail of the progressive platform she would associated with.

Besides, Labonte further sweetened his spoils by negotiating the position of chair of the executive committee under Harel's Vision mayoralty.

True, amour-propre can mean self-esteem, but also ego, pride. I use the word advisedly. Still, as already noted, quoting a source does not necessarily imply endorsement of its connotation.