UJA wants York to start a snitch line for "abuse of podium incidents"

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Thu, 2009-06-18 10:08

Michelle

Apparently, recent events have left the UJA shocked! shocked, I tell you! and shaken! O so shaken! It's so very shocking that some students and professors are against Israeli apartheid, and actually say so!

I am shocked, and shaken. Just shaken. To my core. I certainly hope babblers will join me in expressing support for this worthwhile venture. Clearly, students who support Israeli apartheid have absolutely no institutional or media support for their views, and are being oppressed. Why, it's a wonder that this story even made it into the National Post, given the media bias against Israel.

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:17

martin dufresne

I like this paradigm the UJA is attacking: "...unwarranted or unjustified political personal opinion that is not based on fact..." Phew!

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:23

Caissa

I certainly hope this is not true:

"We had one case of a [teaching assistant] who told a student who was wearing a Israel Defence Forces T-shirt to never come into his class again with that T-shirt on," Mr. English said.

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:28

remind

Why? Considering some of the shit they apparently have on their tee shirts that were discussed here prior.

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:33

martin dufresne

Here is that thread about those IDF T-shirts

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:40

Caissa

At the expense of thread drift, I think my response if I was a student again and anyone tried to regulate my wardrobe would be to balk especially given the left wing T-shirts I was wearing at the time.

Back to the real issue. What UJA is doing is a despicable attack on freedom of speech.

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:44

martin dufresne

Isn't it more than that? I presume they are the first to defend freedom of speech when an Israeli politician wants to make the rounds of Canadian campuses. I see it as a despicable attack on the rights of Palestinians and those of anyone who dares stand up for them.

Thu, 2009-06-18 10:57

Michelle

I also have a problem with that t-shirt incident, if it's even true and not just some urban legend (and we certainly don't know the background to it - the article conveniently doesn't mention what was ON the t-shirt).

But I definitely do NOT have a problem with professors expressing their political or current events viewpoints in class. When you get to university, you're not a kid anymore. It isn't high school. You're going to be exposed to a lot of people with a lot of opinions and you're not always going to agree with them. You're going to have Marxist professors in Sociology, and free-market ideologues in Economics, and everything in between. There are certain things that are out of bounds (e.g. discrimination on charter grounds), but certainly opinions on current events and world politics isn't part of that.

If you don't want a professor who speaks her or his mind on current events or politics, then go see if the UJA shills for Israel will give you a degree for listening to them instead.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:04

Star Spangled C...

Caissa wrote:

Back to the real issue. What UJA is doing is a despicable attack on freedom of speech.

It's nothing of the sort!

They're not saying that people don't ahve the right to express their opinions. If a professor at York wants to hire an airplane to fly around Toronto trailing a "Fuck Israel" banner, they can go right ahead and do so. They're saying that professors shouldn't abuse their authority by using their classrooms as a podium for their own political viewpoints when they have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I'm a university professor. While I don't regularly give lectures (I'm faculty of medicine), I AM responsible for providing instruction and supervision to students in clinical situations. THAT is my job. That's what the university pays me for. That's what students sign up for. If I'm leading a debrief on, say diagnosis of soft-tissue muscle injuries and then launch into a one-sided digression on the situation in the Middle East, is that appropriate? Anyone really think so? If I told someone not to come to my seminars because they were wearing a shirt with a political message that I didn't agree with, is that remotely defensible? It's intimidating to students. Professors are responsible for evaluating them, grading them. They have a lot of influence over whether someone can get into grad school or a professional program. Students shouldn't worry about arbitrary punishment based on political disagreements.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:08

#10

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Shouldn't the title of that article be "UJA threatens York University: Censor all criticism of Israel or be boycotted"?

Quote:

Mr. English said York might feel a financial strain if Jewish students continue to feel intimidated.

"Well, we know that many Jewish donors to the university are very concerned ... many Jewish donors have spoken in the most honest terms, in the most candid terms with [Mr. Shoukri] and other administration officials," he said.

Mr. English said that he is not aware of a "mass withdrawl" of donations at this point, but said "the longer an atmosphere exists at York which is considered by many Jewish students to be intimidating or hostile, the greater the risk of donors withdrawing funds."

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:10

#11

Snert

Quote:
If I'm leading a debrief on, say diagnosis of soft-tissue muscle injuries and then launch into a one-sided digression on the situation in the Middle East, is that appropriate? Anyone really think so?

Depends. Which side would you be supporting?

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:18

#12

martin dufresne

SSC's thought experiment is asking us to presume that the issues brought up by York U professors are "unrelated to the course they are teaching". That is the UJA's contention; are we to trust them that it is accurate? And what if it was? Do we want teachers muzzled about anything but their subjects? What thought police will assess and enforce this? JDL goons?

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:31

#13

Star Spangled C...

Snert wrote:

Quote:
If I'm leading a debrief on, say diagnosis of soft-tissue muscle injuries and then launch into a one-sided digression on the situation in the Middle East, is that appropriate? Anyone really think so?

Depends. Which side would you be supporting?

See, that's what it all comes down to. I'm sure if someone complained about a York physics prof going on a rant in class about how great israel is and how they should build more settlements, the UJA would tell them to shut the hell up. On the otehr hand, I think a lot of people on this board would be outraged and demand that he be silenced.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:34

#14

Star Spangled C...

martin dufresne wrote:

SSC's thought experiment is asking us to presume that the issues brought up by York U professors are "unrelated to the course they are teaching". That is the UJA's contention; are we to trust them that it is accurate? And what if it was? Do we want teachers muzzled about anything but their subjects? What thought police will assess and enforce this? JDL goons?

Well, obviously, there are courses where issues regarding the situation in teh Middle East (political science, history, etc.) would be relevant. But I'd have a hard time imagining how it would be remotely relevant to a discussion in a amthematics class. If a prof in that situation brings it up, it's inappropriate.

But even IN those classes like history and political science, professors jobs are to present facts, research and, ideally, competing views and let students study, discuss, debate and form their own opinions without being intimidated. And it's certainly not to tell students what t-shirts they can and can't wear.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:39

#15

remind

If it is a hate tee shirt they sure as hell can.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:49

#16

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

See, that's what it all comes down to. I'm sure if someone complained about a York physics prof going on a rant in class about how great israel is and how they should build more settlements, the UJA would tell them to shut the hell up. On the otehr hand, I think a lot of people on this board would be outraged and demand that he be silenced.

If Snert wasn't just a sarcastic bastard who's always been on your side of these issues, your rant might have some meaning.

But given that he's a libertarian "free speech absolutist" who's always accused everyone here of the same hypocrisy that he conveniently demonstrated for you, I'm afraid it does not have any meaning whatsoever.

BTW, you should both apologize for your behaviour.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:50

#17

Star Spangled C...

remind wrote:

If it is a hate tee shirt they sure as hell can.

Agreed. But if it simply a political message they don't agree with, they sure as hell can't. A t-shirt bearing the letters "IDF" is not hate speech. I mean, during the last election, if a student came in to one of my sessions wearing a McCain Palin '08 shirt, I wouldn't agree with the message but it's completely outside of my role and inappropriate to say anything, let alone make them take it off.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:51

#18

Star Spangled C...

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

BTW, you should both apologize for your behaviour.

I would consider that if you told me which specific behaviour you're refering to since I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:03

#19

Stockholm

This is totally absurd. Universities are SUPPOSED to be places where people freely debate politics and exchange opinions and the idea of telling ball staff that they are not allowd to say anything is totally draconian and open to abuse. i'm sure York U. already has anti-harassment policies to deal with situations like a TA barring a student from class for wearing an IDF T-shirt. This is pure garbage. If only the UJA had any idea of how much damage they do to their own cause by proposing something so absurd.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:15

#20

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

I wonder how UJA fundraiser Olivia Chow feels about this?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:18

#21

remind

Star Spangled Canadian wrote:
Snert wrote:
Quote:
If I'm leading a debrief on, say diagnosis of soft-tissue muscle injuries and then launch into a one-sided digression on the situation in the Middle East, is that appropriate? Anyone really think so?

Depends. Which side would you be supporting?

See, that's what it all comes down to. I'm sure if someone complained about a York physics prof going on a rant in class about how great israel is and how they should build more settlements, the UJA would tell them to shut the hell up. On the otehr hand, I think a lot of people on this board would be outraged and demand that he be silenced.

Snert's comments can also be taken the oppoiste way, that if you are Zionist or dispensationalist Christian, it may well be considered appropriate, by a lot of people, especially in the USA, though coming to soon to a country near, if things continue the way they are.

Do you have any proof, based upon former actions of the UJA, that they would tell a professor lauding Israel to shut up? Or is it just empty rhetoric posturing?

Truth be told the story in the NP is devoid of facts. It does not state anything concrete, it is just spurious anecdotal accusations expecting blind belief, 'cause they say so. It is a fucking public smear of York University and its academic credentials. I won't even bother going into the economic intereference they are also playing by just the smear campaign.

hell, if I were York U administrators, I would seriously look into a libel suit against several parties and perhaps even loss of revenue by slander.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:21

#22

Stockholm

I also wonder what the UJA is doing intervening on a political issue like this. The UJA is supposed to be a Jewish counterpart to the United Way - they are about raising money for shelters for battered women and children's aid societies etc... - they are not supposed to be about political advocacy or about telling university lecturers what they can and cannot say. Whether you agree with it or not - this sort of press release should be coming from B'nai B'rith or the CJC - NOT the UJA.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:21

#23

Cueball

Caissa wrote:

At the expense of thread drift, I think my response if I was a student again and anyone tried to regulate my wardrobe would be to balk especially given the left wing T-shirts I was wearing at the time.

Back to the real issue. What UJA is doing is a despicable attack on freedom of speech.

You mean like a t-shirt with some bougie looking woman with sniper crosshairs over her pregnant belly with the line: "One shot, two kills" on it? Is that the kind of 'left-wing' T-shirt you used to wear?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:26

#24

Caissa

You want to retract that last sentence before I flag it as offensive Cueball?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:33

#25

Michelle

I think it was clear that he is making the point that we might not be talking about simply some "lefty t-shirt" like the kind you used to wear. But Cueball, come on, you know better than to make your point that way.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:34

#26

Cueball

Flag as offensive? Good. You should do that. It is offensive. And in fact, that is precisely the kind of imagery that can be found on some "IDF T-shirts". A pregnant Muslim woman with sniper crosshairs and the line "one shot, two kills". That would qualify as defensible "freedom of speech? Or something you would like removed from your sight because it is offensive?

To be precise, this IDF t-shirt:

That kind of thing should be allowed at York U.?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:34

#27

Caissa

Flagged as per your request, Cueball.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:35

#28

Cueball

No I don't.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:36

#29

Cueball

Caissa wrote:

Flagged as per your request, Cueball.

Idiot.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:37

#30

Michelle

Caissa, quit wasting my time. Seriously.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:38

#31

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Stockholm wrote:

I also wonder what the UJA is doing intervening on a political issue like this. The UJA is supposed to be a Jewish counterpart to the United Way - they are about raising money for shelters for battered women and children's aid societies etc... - they are not supposed to be about political advocacy or about telling university lecturers what they can and cannot say. Whether you agree with it or not - this sort of press release should be coming from B'nai B'rith or the CJC - NOT the UJA.

That's a very, very, very good point.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:39

#32

Cueball

Sample IDF T-shirt.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:46

#33

Michelle

Point taken, Cueball, but we don't know that this is the type of t-shirt that the student was wearing.

Hell, we don't even know that any t-shirt incident happened at all, since the reporter helpfully provided no details whatsoever about the incident. Nothing like reporting on rumours.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:46

#34

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

Cueball wrote:

Sample IDF T-shirt.

...and that's very, very, very childish.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:49

#35

Caissa

Michelle wrote: Caissa, quit wasting my time. Seriously.

What the (expletive) do you mean? Cueball impugned my character by suggesting I wore shirts like that. Yeah, I find that offensive and every moderator should as well.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:53

#36

johnpauljones

It looks like UJA and other groups simply submitted one joint proposal to a York U committee studying student life. We can argue the merits of their report.

from story in the first post

Quote:

This list of recommendations was delivered to the York University Task Force on Student Life, Learning and Community, which was created in March by university president Mamdouh Shoukri to improve the atmosphere on campus.

Patrick Monahan, the dean of Osgoode Hall Law School and chair of the task force, was not available for comment yesterday. The York University Faculty Association did not return calls as of press time.

what i wonder about is will this york u led commission actually impact the 49,000 students at york who just do not give a damn about the middle east and either side. or will it focus on teh 1000 or so who are already committed in their thoughts and beliefs.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:54

#37

Cueball

Caissa wrote:

Michelle wrote: Caissa, quit wasting my time. Seriously.

What the (expletive) do you mean? Cueball impugned my character by suggesting I wore shirts like that. Yeah, I find that offensive and every moderator should as well.

The only person who is impugning your charachter is you. Everyone else seems to get the point, so there is no way I impugned your charachter, even if you can't wrap your head around the allegorical point.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:54

#38

Michelle

Let it go, Cueball. Let's just move on.

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:56

#39

Stockholm

I'm sure we could have lots of fun finding t-shirts from Iran that depict hooked nosed Jewish bankers drinking the blood of Muslim children and implying that it is typical of what a pro-Palestinian t-shirt might say - but what would be the point.

As I said before, there are already anti-harassment policies at all universities that would deal with anyone saying anything or wearing a t-shirt that was blatantly racist etc... If a student wants to wear a t-shirt that says "Long Live Israel" or "Long Live Palestine" - I say good for them - the more people express their opinions in a civil way the better.

Do we want to get into a situation like in some US schools were students were suspended simply for wearing a t-shirt of Barak Obama to school?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:57

#40

Cueball

Stockholm wrote:

I'm sure we could have lots of fun finding t-shirts from Iran that depict hooked nosed Jewish bankers drinking the blood of Muslim children and implying that it is typical of what a pro-Palestinian t-shirt might say - but what would be the point.

The point would be that a professor would be justified in demanding that a student not wear it to class. By the way, can you find such an item, or is smearing an entire people thus just another example of your racism?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:58

#41

Ghislaine

Cueball wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

I'm sure we could have lots of fun finding t-shirts from Iran that depict hooked nosed Jewish bankers drinking the blood of Muslim children and implying that it is typical of what a pro-Palestinian t-shirt might say - but what would be the point.

The point would be that a professor would be justified in demanding that a student not wear it to class. By the way, can you find such an item, or is smearing an entire people thus just another example of your racism?

Weren't you just smearing all Israelis a few posts up?

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:58

#42

Stockholm

I see the pot is calling the kettle black again!

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:58

#43

Michelle

But we don't know that this is what that supposed, mythical t-shirt said on it. We have no idea what this t-shirt of legend and song and story said on it, because it was simply thrown into the article as a completely unfounded, unsupported allegation with no details about what the t-shirt actually said on it. Its presence in the story was simply to divert people into debating whether or not this mythological t-shirt worn by the poor, oppressed student should have been banned by that big, bad pro-Palestinian ghoul-TA/prof.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:00

#44

Michelle

I agree with Cueball about Stockholm's post. Stockholm, unless you actually have examples of Iranians wearing t-shirts of the type you describe (as opposed to just assuming they must because Iranians are just like that, or whatever), then your example is racist and unwelcome on this board.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:03

#45

Cueball

Ghislaine wrote:

Cueball wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

I'm sure we could have lots of fun finding t-shirts from Iran that depict hooked nosed Jewish bankers drinking the blood of Muslim children and implying that it is typical of what a pro-Palestinian t-shirt might say - but what would be the point.

The point would be that a professor would be justified in demanding that a student not wear it to class. By the way, can you find such an item, or is smearing an entire people thus just another example of your racism?

Weren't you just smearing all Israelis a few posts up?

Hardly. Unless you want to fall into line with Hamas and say all Israelis are members of the IDF, therefore legitimate targets whereever they are, in uniform or out, wearing that T-shirt design, or any other.

I didn't smear anything. A smear is an untrue allegation. I provided and image of the genuine article commissioned by IDF soldiers on the occassion of Operation Cast Lead. If members of the IDF don't want their reacism exposed, they should look for more subtle graphic designs.

Thinking is really at a premium these days.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:04

#46

Cueball

I evidenced my allegation. You just pulled your shittiness out of a hat, based on tropes about antisemitic Iranians and Arabs. What else is new? I produce evidence, you pull shit out of your ass.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:05

#47

Michelle

Anyhow, it's interesting to see how well that little diversion in the article worked. All they have to do is throw in some completely unsupported allegation about a student's t-shirt being banned by a TA, with no details or evidence whatsoever, and everyone's arguing about that instead of discussing the real issue, which is that the UJA is attempting yet one more way to stifle dissent against Israel on campus.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:05

#48

Stockholm

I'm giving a hypothetical example just like he's giving a hypothetical example. Isn't it anti-semitic to imply that anyone wearing a t-shirt that supports Israel would agree with that revolting t-shirt from Israel.

There are clearly SOME Iranians who are anti-semitic and there are clearly SOME Israelis who are anti-Muslim - so what else is new and what does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread. Unless there is evidence that any students at York are actually wearing t-shirts inciting the shooting of pregnant Palestinian women, then even posting that is offensive and gratuitous.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:07

#49

Cueball

I am not giving a hypothetical example, oh sleazy one. I am demonstrating the existance of the genuine article. You are simply making shit up about Arabs and Persians.

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:07

#50

johnpauljones

Michelle wrote:

real issue, which is that the UJA is attempting yet one more way to stifle dissent against Israel on campus.

I wonder what the york u commission report will say. we know what UJA said. Will York U agree or disagree when they release their own report to which UJA only submitted to

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:08

#51

Stockholm

"Anyhow, it's interesting to see how well that little diversion in the article worked. "

On behalf of the UJA I thank Cueball for the diversion. Everytime he posts - support for Israel probably INCREASES in the blogosphere!

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