Brüno: Is Satire Dead?

Give me Monty Python any day over Cohen.

Lemme guess, Cohen has progressed from mocking Central Asian Muslims to mocking Germans?

Borat was disgusting - couldn't watch it to the end. There's a not-so-fine line between satire and misanthropy.

Let me clarify that it was not just the mockery of "foreigners" that was disturbing - it was the evil-minded set-up and mockery of U.S. folks. Even though I think Cohen is very smart, his nastiness was not saved by a sufficient counter-measure of worthwhile humour.

For me Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a classic of satire.

Bill Maher is a great satirist, and he has his own show ("Real Time") on HBO, which I never miss every Friday. He's currently getting under the skin of the Obama administration.

What do Bill Maher, Gene Wilder or The Holy Grail satirise?  (I can see that Monty Python is having fun with Arthurian legends, but satire usually has a purpose beyond mere yuks).

The "Holy Grail" was essentially a number of sketch comedy bits strung together with the Arthurian legends as a theme and very loose plot contrivance. 

Funny as Hell.

"Life of Brian" is satire.  It was a satire on religion and politics. Particularly radical and left wing politics:

Reg: [arriving at Brian's crucifixion] Hello, Sibling Brian.
Brian: Thank God you've come, Reg.
Reg: Well, I think I should point out first, Brian, in all fairness, we are not, in fact, the rescue committee. However, I have been asked to read the following prepare statement on behalf of the movement. "We the People's Front of Judea, brackets, officials, end brackets, do hereby convey our sincere fraternal and sisterly greetings to you, Brian, on this, the occasion of your martyrdom. "
Brian: What?
Reg: "Your death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parent land from the hands of the Roman imperialist aggressors, excluding those concerned with drainage, medicine, roads, housing, education, viniculture and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of Jews of both sexes and hermaphrodites. Signed, on behalf of the P. F. J. , etc. " And I'd just like to add, on a personal note, my own admiration, for what you're doing for us, Brian, on what must be, after all, for you a very difficult time.

It's like they travelled forward in time, and read Babble.

And, I do think it's funny, still.

As big a fan of Bill Maher as I am, I am not sure what he does is satire.  His observations on society and politics more often than not utilize humour and sarcasm, with tinges of irony, but I'm pretty sure it's not satire. Sort of a more fun, less articulate, version of Gore Vidal-- whose satires like "Duluth" and "Myra Breckonridge" fall flat with most.  I would make the same observation about John Stewart's routines on the "Daily Show".  While Stewart himself doesn't deliver satire, his "correspondents" certainly do, and on the whole I don't think anyone could argue that the show in it's entirety isn't satire.

That role is reversed for Stephen Colbert, who performs satire while guests don't.

And of course, there is the master of satire himself, Wolf Blitzer over at CNN.

Ha, I loved Borat and I don't care if he mocked the US. I can't wait to see Bruno.

That's odd, Stargazer. My mental file on you has it that we were almost kindred spirits on pop culture stuff.  But here we must part.  I had to stop watching "Borat",  and I couldn't stand the "Ali-G" character.  In fact, this guy is one of the few people on the planet who invokes in me an urge to punch in the face on sight.  And that's before he even says anything.

I agree with unionist's assessment of Borat. I especially could not stand the part where he stays with the Jewish couple at their Bed and Breakfast and is horribly anti-semitic.

Bill Mahar is funny by times, but has made too many misogynist comments for my liking.

Caissa wrote:

Each sketch in the Holy Grail is satirizing some shibboleth or other.

Shibboleths? Can you cite an example?

The "She's a witch" scene comes close to satirising Medieval jurisprudence, but then, satire has an underlying purpose.  Are the Python's trying to reform old legal systems?

The "My name's Dennis" scene satirises contemporary left-wing politics, and monarchism.  I'll give you that.

I agree with Tommy on The Life of Brian.  The whole thing satirises religion, and Latin class.

Tommy, I part on the Borat/Ali G issue with a lot of people :)

BTW, just got in Jean-Claude Brisseau's Exterminating Angels and Secret Things! WooT!!

The most interesting humorists take a homophobic, sexist, e.g. normal audience and take it further by playing to their prejudice at first but then spoiling their fun by taking them further, beyond that, taking them to the level of more inteligent laugh, at themselves. In Quebec, Yvon Deschamps was a master at that. Cathy Gauthier does it well today.

Others, like Cohen, simply try to play to both crowds, claiming the cheap yuks are to be deconstructed. But given the numbers, they are successful to the extent that they keep general audiences well-supplied in stereotypes about women, gays, minority groups in general, as do the comics who don't even attempt to pass as really offering something else than their primary message.

I agree Winnifred.

Tommy do you like Woody Allen? In particular his earlier movies? Although there is slapstick involved, he manages to get in enough philosophy to take it to a higher level. I'm thinking Love & Death here. I have to say, I adore his movies (yes, even his recent ones) and loved his stand-up and his books. He is probably the funniest man alive IMO. Here's Woody's character, Boris, on death:

Boris: The question is have I learned anything about life. Only that human beings are divided into mind and body. The mind embraces all the nobler aspirations, like poetry and philosophy, but the body has all the fun. The important thing, I think, is not to be bitter... if it turns out that there IS a God, I don't think that He's evil. I think that the worst you can say about Him is that basically He's an underachiever. After all, there are worse things in life than death. If you've ever spent an evening with an insurance salesman, you know what I'm talking about. The key is, to not think of death as an end, but as more of a very effective way to cut down on your expenses. Regarding love, heh, what can you say? It's not the quantity of your sexual relations that counts. It's the quality. On the other hand if the quantity drops below once every eight months, I would definitely look into. Well, that's about it for me folks. Goodbye.

Tommy do you like Woody Allen? In particular his earlier movies? Although there is slapstick involved, he manages to get in enough philosophy to take it to a higher level.

This brings up another subject I will get to in a moment.  I liked Woody Allen's earlier stuff, movies like "sleeper" that had elements of zany mixed in.  And, I will publicly admit that when I was a young teen " What's up Tiger Lilly? " made me laugh.  Though I saw a few minutes of it a few years ago and wonder today what I was laughing at.   His later stuff seems to me more introspective, and I find the routine of the angst ridden New Yorker tedious.

Now, of course, I can't separate his private life from his movies, so that takes a lot of potential fun out of it for me, I guess. And that's the other subject.  Certainly, if you are enjoying any of the Leslie Nielson comedies, you might find one gag funny, the next one not so much, or not at all, but they come at you like a machine gun so you stick with it until O.J. Simpson appears on screen and suddenly, it ain't funny no more.

Some people can separate the personal lives of performers and artists from their art, and some people can't.  I'm a can't.  I often wish I wasn't.   I mean, I used to love, absolutely adore the work of Salvidor Dali, and I still do-- but it's tinged with guilt now that I know what a slimy fascist he was.  I guess Picasso was more in line with my political and social sentiments.  But I can't stand Picasso's art.  The phenomena doesn't seem to go both ways.  A criminal or someone whose politics I strongly dissagree with can turn me off the art;  but no matter how much I agree with an artists politics, or admire what we know of them as people from the media can't make me like the art.

I'm getting better at separating this stuff as I get older.  I watched "On the Water Front" the other night, and admired the movie on it's own terms, putting aside the role of Kazan in the Communist witch hunts of the 50's. 

However, I can't watch Fatty Arbuckle, and even attempt to understand his humour because he's such a tragic figure.

Do you think it's a coincidence that "stars" can so often walk all over other people's rights? It seems that only self-destruction can bring them down. Even child rapist Polanski gets kudos from the arty crowd. I think that part of being "entertained" is vicarious enjoyment of these men's privilege...

Martin, I am not watching Bitter Moon to be vicariously entertained by Polanski's enjoyment of the sex with a minor incident and I find your comment incredinly insulting, as a feminist and as a survivor of rape. I am old enough and wise enough to accurately separate the art from the artist. Martin, I really feel you owe me an apology. You have no idea what it is like to be raped, sexually assaulted and treated like crap for the majority of your life in a woman's skin. I do. I am a grown woman who makes her own decisions and I don't need you telling me how I apparently want to be vicariously entertained. That's sick and cruel.

Okay thank you Martin. I have downloaded Wanted and Desired. I have odd tastes, and I like to understand the whys and how's of things. For example, I read a lot on child predators because I want to understand what makes them tick. Not so I can live vicariously through their crimes, but so that I can understand why someone would commit such crimes. Without understanding there can be no healing. Perhaps you do not understand this. I don't know. But it certainly helps me when I see these offenders as human as opposed to some anomily that rarely happens. I like to face the truth, no matter how dark that truth may be.

I have yet to watch the film, but I am and always will be interested in the minds of those who can commit such crimes against women and children. Knowledge in this case is power. Part of this is also related to my interest in Criminology. Sometimes it takes a hell of a lot of courage to understand, as opposed to pretending this is rare, or unusual behaviour. It is not rare. It is not unusual. It is incredibly and unfortunately common.

You know what I find? That those who are survivors of rape and abuse are the ones who are more willing to understand. Those who are not are very quick to ignore. That I find disturbing.

Martin, definitely no fan of porn here. I am very unpopular because of my stance on porn. Sort of old-school feminist. That's all I want to say about that to avoid a pile-up of abuse.

Am I peeved at these people who watch degrading and violent porn - absolutely. Hell, I am not even a fan of "regular" porn. Not sure what murder chic is. I'm a horror movie fan, so maybe that's your answer. I also watch a lot of warped flicks and I like the film I Spit On Your Grave. The revenge is gratuitous for me (and probably a lot of women).

I'll let you know if I do get around to watching the Polanski flick.

I once watched Spongebob Squarepants dubbed in German at a hotel near the Paris-deGaulle Aeroport.  That was a hoot.

Oh please! It is satire. I would hate to go through life having to censor everything I watched or read just to please others.

You're being dense. I'm through with this thread. Glad to see you are the authority on what and who we can find funny. Perhaps you'll spend the next, oh 5 years, digging through the pasts of all artists. Report back on whose art you can see, watch or read.

You do not get to set the boundaries for me, or anyone else. I feel sorry for you that you have no apparent sense of humour or adventure.

Damn right it is Caissa, or are you referring to Martin?

I don't know what bores you - and I can't say I care - I was alluding to the "real prostitutes" (hint: not men) personal choice (see last sentence of preceding post), not their sense of humour.

Personal choice is a beautiful thing.

One can only hope that the women in the brothels being "satirized" have it.