What should Toronto do with its garbage?

Wed, 2009-07-29 17:13

remind

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Getting back to something Catchfire said:

But if we had to confront our own waste--you can bet we would figure out how to solve a lot of problems pretty quickly.

It points to a mindset we really have to shed. It's not our garbage. We didn't create it, and for the most part we didn't even ask for it.

Cost has to be accounted at the point of origin, at the manufacturer and retailers. If they feel like passing that cost on to us at the price tag, so be it. It's better than the way they are currently passing on the cost-- mercury in your tuna sandwich.

But that's antiquated thinking, I guess. Even on the left we have expunged any idea of corporate responsibility from our very thoughts.

Excellent points!

For example, if we go to buy a BBQ chicken at the store, we have our own glass dish with lid, to have it put in, we do not take the plastic container they come home in from the store. Usually they will take one right off the rotissery (sp?) and put it in the container for us. We may only get one a couple of times a year, but still those plastic containers are not our problem to deal with. In fact, I am thinking about doing the same for grocery store meat and cheese purchases. That we do not buy a lot, is no excuse to accept their packaging.

And yes, we try to only buy things with minimum plastic packaging to them.

It is one's personal choice to decide not to buy the things, that come in things, which are destroying our environment. And to not insist that more things be developed and utilized that are environmentally friendly, as well. People who say they care about "the children" but yet do not do such things, are speaking empty platitudes, as their own immediate "convienence" is more important to them, than a future for their children and grandchildren.

Wed, 2009-07-29 18:14

#53

Bookish Agrarian

Well I hate to throw a spanner into the works - but it t'ain't just landfill. All major urban areas in Ontario and really frikkin everywhere are spreading sewage sludge on that arable land. Sewage sludge is full of all kinds of nasty stuff from heavy metals to pharmacuticals to oils and beyond.

The problem, like garbage, is it just magically disappears - only to reappear in rural areas.

While we have garbage pick up now - where we used to live we had to take all of our own garbage to the dump ourselves - and pay a fee per volume. Let me tell you - that reduces what you throw out in a hurry.

And Heywood we had three kids in diapers, on our own dug well and we costed it out and it was waaay cheaper over the long term to use re-useable diapers. You pay more up front of course, but it is far cheaper over the long haul. By the way the best bleaching agent for such things is sunshine.

Wed, 2009-07-29 19:08

#54

remind

Going to a second hand baby store to get the really good cloth diapers is also a way to lessen initial outlay costs.

And BA, I thought some here just a while back were saying ON is the "greenest" province?

Wed, 2009-07-29 19:11

#55

Tommy_Paine

Yes, sewage sludge is another serious problem too. The main purpose of the "energy from waste" plant in London was to burn the sewage sludge, but for some reason I can't recall, it never worked properly. I'm not entirely sure what London does with it's sludge right now. I think it goes to the dump.

Getting back to diapers, I have been trying to remember all the decision making my ex and I went through regarding them. We started off with cloth, but went to disposable, and for a while a combination of the two. I remember smell being a consideration. You can rinse the cloth diapers in the toilet all you want, but between pickups they still ended up smelling. Which is stupid, I guess. In the olden days, people probably expected that a young familie's house would smell of diapers, and it wasn't a big deal. But today it is. And, cost is a funny thing. I seem to remember that even though the disposable cost more, you paid as you (or your kids) went, instead of a monthly bill. When you are a young family on a strict budget, cash flow enters into considerations. Seems you always had a few bucks for a bag of disposables (no price break on volume, ever notice that? Same with formula) but for some reason we were always juggling the diaper service bill.

In the end, I think our decision making was guided more by convenience than anything else, truth be known.

It only took me a few seconds to flop one of the girls onto the change table, undo the tabs, wipe, and flip on another diaper. A bit longer if I was about to go out and leave them with my then wife, as I'd sprinkle in a few pinches of course sand in the diaper to make them misserable for her.

Kidding. I never did that.

Often.

Compare that to the extra steps, the rinsing and struggling on the rubber pants, (them, not me--that came years later) and my personal fear, the manipulation of the diaper pins with my big meaty man hands. I had an unreasonable fear that one day I'd accidentally skewer one of them, and that would be imprinted on them for life, untill they were in court and blaming me for an arson they committed in their twenties.

Since those two are now in their twenties, and-- to the best of my knowledge-- not arsonists, I say go with disposables, just to be safe.

Wed, 2009-07-29 19:26

#56

remind

No more pins with cloth diapers tommy. Nor rubber pants.

Convenience means sfa environmentally.

Wed, 2009-07-29 19:30

#57

Tommy_Paine

Well, that shows how outdated I am, and my advice.

Except for the sand thing. You'll want to use at least an 80 grit, Heywood.

Wed, 2009-07-29 20:03

#58

remind

LOL, they are even easier to put on than disposable diapers and you do not have to worry about the tabs cutting sensitive baby skin.

And if you want, you can get disposable environmentally friendly diaper liners that are flushable. They need not be used all the time, when you know your baby's pooping schedule.

Wed, 2009-07-29 20:09

#59

Sven

Tommy_Paine wrote:

And, as much as I don't like John Tory, he was right back during the mayoral debates when he said incineration should be looked at.

Is anyone following the progress or testing of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_waste_disposal][color=blue][u]pl... arc gasification[/u][/color][/url] project in Ottawa?

There is some discussion about building a plasma arc gasification plant here in Minnesota that would handle 500 tons of municipal waste per day. I'm just starting to look at the pros and cons of the technology so that I can better understand whether or not such a waste management process makes sense or not.

But, I'd be curious to know if anyone here is familiar with the technology?

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Wed, 2009-07-29 21:00

#60

Tommy_Paine

Not with this technology, or at least not applied in this way. I've used hand held plasma cutters, and did some capability studies and other monitoring of automated plasma cutters. I can say they are a much more eloquent way to cut steel than any other method I've seen.

Wed, 2009-07-29 21:20

#61

Bookish Agrarian

To my mind sludge is in some ways a bigger problem. A garbage dump is a very localized problems in some ways - ignoring the possible threats to aquifers. Sludge on the other hand is spread over a wide geographic area making possible problems all the less containable in terms of land degradation. Although if someone wanted to put a dump right next to me - I might be a little less casual.

They both come from the same 'out of sight - out of mind' mentality we are all guilty to of to some degree or the other.

When I was a kid going to the dump was an adventure. I still have the button accordian I found when I was 10. Today though the modern dump is just a mismash of crap. We have moved to a disposible, brittle plastic world and that means we throw out a LOT more stuff than we ever did before.

And Tommy you are aging yourself. By our youngest indoor tornado our diapers were held together by velcro - had a built in leak barrier and by 'storing' the used one in a small garbage pail with water rarely smelled much.

Then my 'vison' of what stinks might be a bit skewed

Wed, 2009-07-29 22:11

#62

Tommy_Paine

I grew up near London's principle dump at that time, the Glen Cairn dump at Adelaide and Comissioners, adjacent to the London Port Stanely Railroad. We learned that whoever directed the dumping had it kind of sectioned off. There was the "3M" section, where they'd dump deffective rolls of tape, rolls that were wound a little off center. We, and our school, never wanted for masking tape or that fiberglass tape. Of course, we also found where some magazine warehouse dumped unsold magazines. To this day I remember a particularly lurid tale from an old "Argosy" magazine I spent the afternoon in the woods reading. And, it might be why to this day, I prefer my porn in black and white. It's also where I saw my first plastic garbage bag, now ubiquitous. They didn't contain garbage-- they were deffective and discarded from the manufacturer-- 3M?

Dang, the things I probably crawled over and through. I should probably have two heads and three arms by now. It's probably why I also don't get infected when I get cuts. Robust workouts for my immune system when I was a kid.

But one thing about scavenging that stuff from the dump. The novelty of free usable stuff wore off when you got it home, and realized you brought that smell home with you. That smell that never went away.

You can walk across the clay cap on that dump today. Since the city stopped cutting the grass there, it's turned into a pretty meadow, and I'd say it's the best place in London, come august, to go butterfly watching. But you'll come across patches where nothing grows. I mean nothing. Not even moss or lichens or anything. And, if you walk along the tracks there, and take note of little Dayus creek that runs beside them, you'll see water a colour even Stephen King couldn't imagine.

And, if you get close enough, there's still that smell.

Wed, 2009-07-29 22:15

#63

George Victor

Filling two lines with cotton diapers was no trick on wash day when we were both students, and it was spring, in the banana belt of St.Catherines.

Then I got a job that took us to Manitouwadge. There were no clotheslines for the apt. building and minus 30-40 was not uncommon. Income and cold weather combined to bring about a switch to disposables.

In the late 70s (now living in townhouses) my partner led the charge for blueboxing in multiple-unit dwellings in the region where the concept of recycling with blueboxes was birthed, starting with single family housing. (Waterloo Region).

We progress, with climatatic conditions and housing and the increasingly toxic waste of our industries in mind.

But pity the politicians who have to deal with the variety of perspectives posted here.

Thu, 2009-07-30 08:21

#64

Ghislaine

remind wrote:

Ghislaine wrote:
I still cannot believe remind is calling for a ban on disposible diapers?? You are using a plastic computer, yet you want to punish new parents - probably the busiest amoung us? I would love to see you walk into a daycare anywhere in this country and tell them you think disposible diapers should be banned. I am sure their reaction would be totally wonderful.

Try banning plastics in your own life first, and then let us know how it works out. (since you won't be able to use a computer or a telephone, and I am sure the mail will need to be flown on planes with plastic in them from BC... I have no idea how you are going to tell us).

Punish new parents? Get real! I was a working parent who took her child to day care ffs, and I did not use disposables. The day care simply threw them into the container I provided, and which I took home when I picked up my daughter.

Plastic backed diapers are nasty harsh on the environment...perhaps have an internet search about it to inform yourself before you have children! There are great velcro cloth diapers, shaped exactly like disposables, or get yourself a diaper service.

I have long advocated getting rid of plastics, and the implimentation of hemp fibre hard surfaced products instead, here. Have you ever done any thinking on what the contued use of plastics will mean to society and the world environmentally?

And I have banned as many plastics as possible from my life, and have done so for decades.

Heywood, there are actually adult diaper services on VIsland and plastic sanitary needs for women should be banned too.

Well, I think plastic computers, phones, car components, internet cable, TVs, etc. should be banned. Do you use any of these?

I am thinking of the single mother I know with the 4 mo. old who had to go back to work because she could not afford maternity leave and desperately searched until she found a daycare space. You can sit there using plastic electronics that she could never afford, while advocating a banning of plastic diapers her time-crunched schedule depends on? Who uses more plastics? She does not own a cell phone, a computre, cannot afford an internet connection, does not own a car. Yet, you think she should be forbidden from using a tiny percentage of the plastics you use (don't forget about the plastics involved in generating the electricity required for this internet discussion). And, you would like her to tell the overstretched daycare to accomodate cloth diapers. I know another friend who's daycare would not do that. She could use cloth the rest of the time, but at the daycare, it was disposible.

How about tropical fruit? Do you eat any of that? Lettuce in the winter? That has a much larger impact than disposible diapers on the environment as it is changing the climate.

Thu, 2009-07-30 11:28

#65

WillC

This last part of the discussion illustrates the beginning of this thread: People who do try to help the environment sometime get sanctimonious about what other people are doing without understanding their problem. Likewise most Canadians tend to get hollier-than-thou about Toronto without understanding the situation here.

It makes as much sense comparing Toronto to some little place of 100,000 people, as is does to compare the disposal problems of a luxury cruise ship to a 5-person yacht.

Someone earlier said that all his friends have backyard composters. About half of Torontonians live in apartments, many without balconies. What are they supposed to do with their compost?

Thu, 2009-07-30 11:41

#66

Snert

I always find it interesting how discussions like this devolve into rationalizations. Same thing with a discussion of, say, cars. It starts with "Peak Oil!! Abolish Car Culture!! No more smogmobiles". But then it ends with "... except for my friend Bob who lives in a rural area and NEEDS his car, and my friend Mary whose kids are all in hockey, so what's she supposed to do? Lug the gear on a bus???"

I don't know if we'll be able to make meaningful changes that also don't inconvenience anyone.

Thu, 2009-07-30 11:51

#67

WillC

Quote:
...I don't know if we'll be able to make meaningful changes that also don't inconvenience anyone.

I guess that was about balcony-less apartment dwellers who don't recycle their compost. You do have a point, but don't just criticize Toronto. How many rural people live a car free life? We all have to work at it, and hollier-than-thou won't help anyone.

Thu, 2009-07-30 12:13

#68

Snert

Quote:
I guess that was about balcony-less apartment dwellers who don't recycle their compost.

No, not at all. I would expect, and hope, that Toronto could adopt a green bin program that would suit apartment dwellers. I'm told that one or two people cannot reasonably generate enough vegetable waste to effectively compost anyway. 100 apartment dwellers with 100 little compost bins on their balconies won't make compost the way one big pile would.

I'm more responding to people who are so busy that they need diapers that can be chucked in the landfill. I'm sure they really are busy, and I'm not making light of that, but everyone can find things that are convenient in their busy lives, or things that they can't imagine living without (even though people used to manage just fine). I think that if we're going to make any kind of meaningful changes, people will have to re-evaluate what "need" and "must have" really mean. And so I agree with:

Quote:
We all have to work at it, and hollier-than-thou won't help anyone.

Thu, 2009-07-30 12:18

#69

remind

Apparently you do not read links Ghislaine, nor think too much about your belief system flaws.

Disposable diapers are a huge problem and if your friend is so poor she should definitely be using cloth diapers, as they are a hellva lot cheaper to use than paper plastic ones. Time crunched schedule? Give me a freakin break, you speak as if no one has had a "time crunched" life too. Frankly, I do not accept that excuse, not for myself, nor anyone, it is destroying the environment.

My computer, that is now10 years old, has much less impact on the environment than 3 years of disposable diaper use. My phone is about 25 years old, at least, and a land line to boot, I won't go the cordless route with those nasty batteries. No cell phone either and a 20 year old TV that is second hand. I buy seasonal fruit and veggies from BC, when I have to, and in winter I buy BC hot house, if I want something fresh. I have a garden, and I freeze and can. This year I have 52 tomatoe plants, which I started from seed, and will be freezing and canning the fruit. Also, I wild berry pick just got back actually, was out before the heat hit, at the first light of day, and have been freezing and making jam, for days now. I also pick mountains greens and freeze them for the winter too. I hang my clothes up to dry winter and summer alike and have done so always. Clothes, towels, sheets etc...last longer too.

You see...I have been walking the talk my whole life, literally. I understand that "inconveniece" claims usually = laziness, and it is destroying our world. And BTW, we haul our water too. FYI, I am not living some cushy lifestyle, where I pontificate on what others should be doing, while doing the opposite myself.

Thu, 2009-07-30 12:26

#70

Ghislaine

remind, I agree with you for the most part. I just don't agree with banning things like that. It will just make people angry and someone somewhere will start selling disposible diapers somehow. I think the better approach is education - like you just pointed out - about how things are easier than they used to be, cost savings, etc.

My point about some of the things was electricity. You have not addressed plastics in medical technology. You cannot ban plastics - that is ludicrous! I agree with you wholeheartedly on reducing waste, being as efficient as possible and buying locally. However, a statement that all plastics needs to be banned needs to be addressed. When your computer breaks, will you deny yourself a new one? Plastics are used in way more ways than we can even contemplate. I do not take issue at all with living a sustainable lifestyle and I think that needs to be promoted and enforced as much as possible. Banning plastics is ridiculous and not possible.

Thu, 2009-07-30 13:43

#71

remind

Plastics can be fazed out, and other sustainable products like hemp fibre composite products can be implimented in place of plastics. Do a internet search on hemp composites

Meanwhile, before the fazing out starts, things like disposable diapers need to be banned. I do not care if people get angry so what? I am angry about their wilfull destruction of the environment.

In respect to my comp, my tower is metal, and I would just get whatever is broken internally fixed, scanner printer and screen is plastic. Scanner and printer if they ever break, will not be replaced. The most I would do is buy a new screen, if ever needed.

Also, plastics in medical use, can be fazed out too. BTW, they use products that are not plastic based for people who have allergies to plastics.

Just because you cannot imagine a world without plastics does not mean it cannot happen. It will happen as more people realize just what plastics are doing to the planet.

Thu, 2009-07-30 14:29

#72

WillC

Snert wrote:

Quote:
I guess that was about balcony-less apartment dwellers who don't recycle their compost.

No, not at all. I would expect, and hope, that Toronto could adopt a green bin program that would suit apartment dwellers. I'm told that one or two people cannot reasonably generate enough vegetable waste to effectively compost anyway. 100 apartment dwellers with 100 little compost bins on their balconies won't make compost the way one big pile would....

I'm behind the times. Apparently it has started in some building in Toronto.

http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/multi/green_bin_program.htm

Thu, 2009-07-30 15:32

#73

Michelle

HeywoodFloyd wrote:

remind wrote:

Ban disposable diapers.

Ban single use plastic bags.

For both adults and children?

Ban disposable feminine hygine products too. (said to make a point, not really serious)

Fine with me. I use the Diva Cup. (Probably too much information, but just to let you know that there actually ARE non-disposable alternatives to pads and tampons.)

Thu, 2009-07-30 15:45

#74

Michelle

Jabberwock wrote:

And Michelle, while I truly do appreciate the garbage problem of Toronto, I kind of am bothered by the idea that anything outside of a city is "empty" space. There is a lot of agriculture around London- not just swathes of empty land. I know you didn't mean it that way, but here is BC we have a big issue with land being taken out of the Agricultural Land Reserve for development. The idea that arable land is underused land is one that bugs me.

Oh, I know, believe me. I come from Kingston, where it is the same. In fact, that even reinforces my point - that Londoners aren't doing anything more noble than what Torontonians are doing. They're destroying land with landfills at the same rate (or perhaps even greater) per capita as we are. The land just happens to be within their municipal borders.

There are much better things that can be done with wide open tracts of land than landfill, I agree. Like agriculture. Or wildlife habitat.

In fact, while we're on the subject, we could talk about why it is that smaller suburban sprawl cities like London and Kingston keep spreading their single-family home subdivisions out into the farmland instead of creating density (the way Toronto must). And why it is that Torontonians weren't all given composting containers the way Londoners were (because a huge percentage of us don't have backyards because of the population density here - if we lived the way Londoners do, Toronto would take up way, way more area than it does now).

If people from smaller suburban cities like Kingston or London want to take on the average Torontonian when it comes to our ecological footprint based on the way we live, I say, bring it on. I'll pit my small, two bedroom apartment, public transit instead of owning a car, and a shared garbage container with three families in my landlord's house that gets picked up every other week against suburban single-family homes with front and back lawns, a car in every driveway, and four bags of garbage every week any day.

Thu, 2009-07-30 17:15

#75

genstrike

re: Toronto

I think part of what is at play here is an irrational tendency to hate on the next biggest city (which can be a joke like inter-faculty rivalries at a university, but unfortunately some people take it seriously) - for example, people from a small town can hate on Brandon, and people from Brandon can hate on Winnipeg. And as Toronto is the biggest city in the country, it will draw the ire of not only people living in other cities in the region, but the whole country (even people from Winnipeg who have never been to Toronto).

I think part of this irrational hatred stems from jealousy over big cities having more political clout due to their higher population ("center of the universe") and better services and more high-profile events (most people's favourite bands aren't going to play a town with a population of 483). I think there are also some old cultural memes regarding "small town values" at play as well.

Thu, 2009-07-30 17:21

#76

Bookish Agrarian

Most suburban houses I pass on my way to rural splendor have more than one car in the driveway. But then I have a big honking truck for the farm and then my little car for putting around in.

When I was a kid my grandparents generation re-used a lot of stuff - burned what couldn't be re-used and then took what couldn't be burned to the dump. Not saying that is ideal- not at all - but somewhere along the line we switched from things with long life that could actually be repaired by the user - to cheap crap we throw away and replace with a new one.

Hard for me to see that Torontonians are any more responsible for that then Londoners or someone from Punkydoodles Corner. We all share the responsibility for the problem and for fixing it. But please stop sending your crap out my way - I have enough of my own.

Thu, 2009-07-30 17:28

#77

genstrike

Tommy_Paine wrote:
The main problem with incineration here in Ontario is that this was sold to us decades ago, when the technology wasn't so good-- but yet we were told it was. I lived in a nieghborhood where the "Energy from Waste" plant was located near Adelaide and Commissioners road. We were assured by an engineering consultant that the temperatures of combustion were so high, you wouldn't get funky things like dioxins and the like from incomplete combustion.

Of course, it never worked that way, and it eventually shut down. Problem is with these projects is that the engineers and others who assure us that it's okay are never around to face any consequence for being wrong.

I just have to respond to this because I've seen this line before

Actually, engineers have very strict professional and ethical guidelines, and there are major consequences for unprofessionalism. For example, all the engineers who signed off on the walkway at the Hyatt Regency hotel lost their liscences and can never practice engineering again, and I think some of them went to jail. Engineers have to look at a ton of background knowledge and weigh a lot of pros and cons and make a lot of difficult decisions which are far beyond the capacity of most people (most of which still carry a level of risk either way), although I will admit there are a lot of cultural problems in the profession and how problems are framed (most of which are caused by the profession existing within capitalism).

Unfortunately, it is the corporations responsible for the final decisions which are never held to account. You decry expunging any idea of corporate responsibility from our very thoughts, then turn around and point the finger at some amorphous white-collar blob of the salariat who are only doing their jobs instead of the corporations, their cost-benefit analyses, and the system of capitalism causing a certain culture in people who make decisions, which filters down to the smart people they hire to tell them what to do.

Fri, 2009-07-31 09:49

#78

Tommy_Paine

Actually, it's Michelle that's made this into a "London vs. Toronto" debate, to side step the issue that when exporting garbage was an idea identified with Conservative or right wing politicians it was a terrible idea. But, by some magic the idea somehow becomes a jolly good one when a supposed progressive adopts it.

Probably the same kind of magic that makes Toronto garbage stop stinking as soon as it hits the 401.

Harry Potter eat your heart out.

In fact, that even reinforces my point - that Londoners aren't doing anything more noble than what Torontonians are doing.

Agreed-- as I said, and said, London and other municipalities just haven't hit the same wall Toronto has-- but they will. Soooo, I gather you and the rest of Toronto's progressives won't mind when we start shipping it and burying it in the Oak Ridges Moraine?

Goose. Gander. You know the proverb.

In fact, while we're on the subject, we could talk about why it is that smaller suburban sprawl cities like London and Kingston keep spreading their single-family home subdivisions out into the farmland instead of creating density (the way Toronto must)

Actually, because of the so called "Killer Bees" (three members of council whose last names begin with "B") that kind of sprawl has started to be riegned in. Perhaps, like Toronto, we could just continue, but call it Missassauga or Willowdale or Kitchener?

Meanwhile, that lefty David Miller is getting all kinds of cozy with developers.

Actually, engineers have very strict professional and ethical guidelines, and there are major consequences for unprofessionalism. For example, all the engineers who signed off on the walkway at the Hyatt Regency hotel lost their liscences and can never practice engineering again, and I think some of them went to jail.

Yes. I remember the walkway collapse at the Kansas City Hyatt Regency. But, this is Ontario. When's the last time any professional faced consequences (other than a few uncomfortable moments on the hot seat at an inquiry) for professional misconduct? How much jail time did the engineer do who signed off on putting a water intake pipe downstream from the sewage outlet in Kesechewan?

Tue, 2009-08-04 22:53

#79

Doug

Toronto garbage workers have been routinely mixing green bin organics with regular trash that is trucked to a Michigan landfill, say city employees interviewed by the Star.

The workers – who return to work today after a five-week strike – say this occurs at those transfer stations where all types of garbage are first brought after collection from homes.

A former manager in a transfer station confirmed he had seen this happen and that some managers allow the practice to get rid of the enormous amount of green bin waste produced by Torontonians.