I understand that it is practice here to skip this first box.
Mulberries
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:10
#1
Mulberries
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:11
#2
Just because you can't edit it. :)
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:24
#3
I've hesitated to say this before for the obvious reason that, no matter how nice people here have been to me, there is something a little odd about my contributions here.
Still, I recognize something happening on a couple of current topics that we used to have a name for, as Michelle and oldgoat will remember, I think. Mulberries, as in "Here we go 'round the mulberry bush, ..." etc.
I don't have an answer to mulberries, never did have, except to remove myself from them once I got to the point of being able to write the entire debate out all by myself, multiple voices, while half-asleep.
But you've got a couple of mulberries going now, and they're obviously giving the mods a lot of trouble. I mean no disrespect at all to people who have deep convictions about prostitution, sex work, or vaccination -- I have deep convictions of my own on all those topics, as I have had for years on, eg, Israel/Palestine. But I guarantee you that there are a lot of people who would write thoughtfully to any of those topics if they didn't fear that they were going to be swamped by mulberrymnosity.
Maybe people should try talking this out at a meta-level for a bit (and I normally hate meta-conversations). How do we stop mulberries?
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:25
#4
ohai, Michelle. Just a loose thought. I haven't thought this out deeply, but I sure see teh problemo.
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:52
#5
Well, in the past, we've created temporary (and not-so-temporary) forums to house the mulberries - remember the NDP forum, and the Middle East forum?
I'm coming to the conclusion that there really isn't much the moderators can do. We've had thread after thread in rabble reactions about this sort of thing, but honestly? I don't think people are really serious about wanting anything to change. Everyone here is an adult, and I just have been having a hopeless feeling lately that for the handful of people who spend all day bickering back and forth in the mulberry threads, that they just LIKE it. Otherwise, why would they do it?
I mean, it seems to me that some people just get addicted to constant baiting and conflict, constant verbal abuse and sparring. Perhaps it's a way to get out aggression, by attacking faceless names on a computer screen. Maybe it's a way of getting out all the frustrations of life in a way that you can't do in real life without everyone in your life walking away from you.
Sure is a community-killer, though. I've had a number of funny or interesting things come up lately and I've thought to myself, "Hey, I should post that on babble!" Then I think, nah - it'll probably just turn into a fight about one of the mulberry bush topics. If someone as prolific as I am is thinking that way, I can only imagine how many others are.
Wed, 2009-11-04 17:59
#6
remind
wow what a delight, 
Wed, 2009-11-04 19:44
#7
When I saw this thread title, I thought it was about actual mulberries, tee hee.
I make a kick-ass mulberry pie 
Wed, 2009-11-04 19:47
#8
Recipes! (That was another way we used to deal with mulberries...) :)
Wed, 2009-11-04 19:52
#9
Catchfire
Honestly, I'm just waiting for the mulberries to die a natuaral death and then maybe I can post normally again. Every now and then I get an urge, to which I eventually succumb, to water the festering tree, but I quickly realize why it's better to abstain. There were some interesting points being made in the sex work and vaccination threads at first that have been quashed by sheer attrition.
Like Detective McNulty and police work, it's no longer about morality and the public good, it's about who gets to win.
Wed, 2009-11-04 19:59
#10
remind
What did people use to do to derail passive aggressive self proclaimed elitist threads? ;)
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:15
#11
Catchfire
Keep up the good work, remind.
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:16
#12
Hitting a little too close to home, remind?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:20
#13
An American pharmacist at a medical chat site said we [pharmacists] should tell vaccine skeptics that mercury is an essential mineral, just like iron and magnesium.
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:26
#14
Well, it does occur in nature, therefore it's "natural". ;)
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:33
#15
remind
I don't know michelle, you speaking as a moderator, or a babbler?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:43
#16
I don't know, remind - are you speaking as someone who really has an interest in contributing to this thread topic, or are you more interested in posting off-topic snipes at the person who started the thread, and those who want to discuss the issue?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:47
#17
remind
well.....it is a rabble reactions thread so, I thought reactions were what was supposed to be going on?
Is this not normal for rabble reactions?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:50
#18
Catchfire
It's not normal for socially integrated human beings. Who can say if it's normal for rabble?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:50
#19
remind
wow that is interesting tommy, i never knew the hats were fulled in mecury...why would they do that?
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:51
#20
According to Peter C. Newman in his HBC series of books, Beaver pelts would be shaved, and the hairs fulled in mercury. By hand. By the time Hatters reached the age of about 40, the mercury they had ingested or absorbed over the years would be affecting their central nervous systems.
Hence, "Mad as a Hatter." Or so says Newman.
EEeeenyways....
While I much more enjoy European Buckthorn berry discussions (as we all know, the little black berries on those shrubby trees you see about now that the birds don't eat are a cathartic-- isn't my esoteric knowledge enough to make you sick?) {cathartic, sick, I was making a joke son} I follow many of the Mullbery discussions, even if I don't always contribute, or just contribute a dusted off stock viewpoint, or as an excersize in run on sentences.
Seriously, for a second, I think they can serve to make you re-examine your views, even if it is just to confirm that nothing much has changed.
Sometimes you can try to take the discussion on a different path, as I did in one thread, introducing the importance and need for professional and safe BDSM practices. But everyone else was bound and determined to whip themselves into a frenzy along another chain of thought. Really, it's enough to make one gag.
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:52
#21
This is the first time I have seen open baiting of people who post in earnest about a crucial issue being indulged and fueled by a moderator. Times sure are a-changing here. Out of this pathetic thread, so save your faux outrage, folks.
Wed, 2009-11-04 20:52
#22
To make a kind of felt.
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:01
#23
remind
It's not normal for socially integrated human beings. Who can say if it's normal for rabble?
ohhh..... catchfire you wound me, reallly you dooooo...well not so much, i suppose.
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:12
#24
Well, martin won't be reading this now, of course, and I apologize for offending people who are passionately engaged in any topic. I know how infuriating it can be to be patted on the head when you're doing your best for a cause you believe in. I do understand that feeling.
I wrote what I wrote above after reading two different moderators express exasperation on a single thread. And it wasn't as though I couldn't see why they were exasperated. I've seen a number of very thoughtful people back away from two discussions at least over the last couple of weeks, and I'm just observing that that is gonna keep happening and it is not a good thing.
I was going to say more, but maybe better not. It's past pumpkin hour, and teh mind has gone for tonight.
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:27
#25
remind
I've seen a number of very thoughtful people back away from two discussions at least over the last couple of weeks
Me too, because they did not want to deal with pot kettle posts like this one, so there we go....
positions on said 2 topics, are hardened as is, there is no need to make further hard feelings too, like one does with starting baiting threads
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:42
#26
Sometimes you can try to take the discussion on a different path, as I did in one thread, introducing the importance and need for professional and safe BDSM practices. But everyone else was bound and determined to whip themselves into a frenzy along another chain of thought. Really, it's enough to make one gag.
Oh, before I go, I should clap hands for those last two sentences of Tommy's.
(You don't have a happy-clappy icon, though. No dancing bunnies either.)
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:47
#27
(You don't have a happy-clappy icon, though. No dancing bunnies either.)
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:51
#28
remind
they were pretty bitingly funny alright, Tommy, as only you can do within the restricted confines of safe BDSM at babble. :D
Wed, 2009-11-04 21:52
#29
ROTFL, holding tummy.
Tommy, those are for you.
Thu, 2009-11-05 07:21
#30
Give me a break. This is not a "baiting thread". This is someone recognizing a problem that many other people recognize too, except for the handful of people who are so invested in and caught up in the bickering and fighting in those "mulberry" threads that they can't see the pattern and the way it's putting other people off. Heck, even some of the people caught up in it see they're caught up in it. I can usually tell when I'm getting caught up in a mulberry, and so can a number of others - in fact, people often say, "Okay, we're just going around in circles" or "I'm outta here" or whatever.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the opening post of this thread. I appreciate that skdadl started it.
Yes, it's been a pattern for years - probably since almost the beginning of babble - and I don't think anyone has ever really come up with a way to resolve it when it happens. But it usually looks the same, no matter what the topic - it starts out as a subject that a number of people post about, and if there is a lot of disagreement, then it gets chewed over for a while by a number of people. Then as it becomes more polarized, more and more people drop out of the discussion until it's just a handful of people posting opuses (opii?) at each other for thread after thread, going around in circles, posting the same argument at each other again and again.
The solution happens, generally, when the handful of scrappers on any particular subject get sick of it. Or when people decide that life is too short to be angry at people on a discussion forum. Or find some sort of common cause in another subject that convinces them that the people on the other side of the debate are not the devil incarnate. ;) But that usually takes a long time, and in the meantime, others either just post around those threads, or perhaps read along every once in a while, dip their toe in, and the step out again.
It's happened about the Middle East, it's happened about the NDP, it's happened about porn, prostitution, vaccination, religion vs. atheism, same sex marriage (remember that??), about what feminist space should look like (remember way back when the feminism forum was created?), about what the response should be to 9-11 back in 2001 and early 2002...
I haven't seen anything work to stop it, beyond people just finally getting sick of fighting all the time, and dropping the subject eventually. Or perhaps a moderator closing threads when they are simply going around in circles with the same arguments posted at each other, or nasty tone happening (which I'm open to doing).
Thu, 2009-11-05 07:31
#31
I'm going to name what I feel is going on. I believe some Babblers are intentionally obstructing dialogue. Restating the same argument over and over again is not a discussion.
Thu, 2009-11-05 08:55
#32
"Bellyaching" came to mind as a kind descriptor of the phenom.
Thu, 2009-11-05 10:27
#33
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Sure is a community-killer, though. I've had a number of funny or interesting things come up lately and I've thought to myself, "Hey, I should post that on babble!" Then I think, nah - it'll probably just turn into a fight about one of the mulberry bush topics. If someone as prolific as I am is thinking that way, I can only imagine how many others are.
I'm certainly posting less (though that may not be a bad thing). I'm also finding fewer threads worth following these days, unfortunately.
As for the biggest 'mulberry' around here as of late, I can't be bothered to enter the fray because I see prostitution as the symptom, not the disease; and I'd much rather we focus on the social changes required for the cure.
Thu, 2009-11-05 12:48
#34
remind
sI see prostitution as the symptom, not the disease; and I'd much rather we focus on the social changes required for the cure.
Funny, that is the point some of us have been trying to make over and over about this....but we are called names and labelled over it.
I'm going to name what I feel is going on. I believe some Babblers are intentionally obstructing dialogue. Restating the same argument over and over again is not a discussion.
Really? Have you looked at yourself as one of those restating over and over again and thus obstructing too?
All that means is that positions are polarized, and I am certainly not going to start trasghing babblers as "obstructionists", because they are olarized in their views and are trying to make room for a discussion.
Amd who cares if things are going around and around in a thread, stop looking at it....
...and starting threads complaining, whining, and belly aching about it, when one can just avoid them, like everyone else does to numerous other threads of an endless nature going on, is well... exposing much
Thu, 2009-11-05 12:53
#35
Of course, I have looked at myself, Remind. I may have forgot but I doubt you will find many posts of me repeating my position. As for others, I'm not a s sure.