are there sex workers/adult entertainers who enjoy their jobs?part 2

spanks, that is pretty tacky. There is no point in having a board war.

Susan, I have to agree with spanks on the single moms thing you mentioned above. Single mothers don't have the support you think they do.  I know, I was one, as are many of the people I know. We work hard, we have no support. We make ends meet by doing whatever we can but in no way are single fathers worse off. In fact, think about this: a man who raises his own child is considered exceptional, and put on a pedestal for being a good father. Single mothers on the other hand are often demonized. They are told they cannot work and have a job - it damages the child. They are not shown even close to the respect single fathers are, simply because we are women and it is considered our job to raise the kids, come home and cook, clean, read to them, take them to school, go to work. Men are parised and awarded for doing the exact same thing, even less. Single fathers get pats on the back for simply seeing their kids every second weekend.

Lest we forget all the mom blaming that occurs in this society - from shrinks to educational professionals. If our kids don't turn out perfect it is always our fault. We are to blame for crime by our kids. No mention is rarely if ever made of the fathers who abandoned their own kids. men are not made into demons for abandoni9ng them at all. They get a pass. They get to walk whenever they want, hide their money away so they don't have to pay child support.

I am guessing you have never been a single mother. I really wish you would think about what I've posted before getting all weepy eyed for single dads.

Sorry, but no, single dads don't have it any worse than single moms.  If anything, a single dad has it easier than a single mother, and of course they meet people - single fathers meet people all the time.  How do you figure they don't, or that they have less opportunity to meet women (if they're straight) than single moms do of meeting men (if they're straight)?  Single fathers are often fawned over as if they're saving the universe by looking after his kids, while single mothers are either seen as a burden, or pitied.  And if she goes on welfare because her ex doesn't pay child support?  Look out, she's a pariah!

Furthermore, men tend to make more money than women, so single dads on average most likely make more money than single moms. 

And the idea that single dads don't have any support while single moms do?  Not true, if you're talking about child support - they are awarded child support just as single mothers are.  And I'll bet you probably know at least two or three single mothers who don't get the child support they're owed.  I know one single father who wasn't awarded any child support.  But I know, and have known many women whose exes were deadbeats.  And single dads get the same government benefits for their kids that single mothers do.

Single parents don't have it easy.  But you can be sure that single mothers have it just as bad - and probably worse - than single fathers.

This took a very odd turn.

Speaking as a man who was a single father, with three daughters from ages 8 to 15 at the start, I have to say yes, there was very little support-- or so it seemed.   But I had my job, and because of that a sterling credit record so the good people at the bank could "help" me (still paying for that "help", years later... yesterday, I sardonically thought to myself that the good part about dying before my aloted four score will mean that the bank looses the bet, and I win!)   And, I had the support from my male co-workers, who put up with my incessant whining, and supervisors that cut me much slack when I couldn't keep my emotions in check in a few isolated instances.

What's a broken window between buds?

So yeah, as a single dad I didn't have a formal infrastructure for support,  because I didn't need it.  Maybe some guys situations are comarable to what single women with kids go through, but I bet most are like me.  Fucking lucky to have a society making things as easy as possible for me, instead of tripping me up at every turn.

I know one single father who wasn't awarded any child support.

Is that me Michelle?   Because that wasn't a court award or non award, but part of an amicable trade off.  I recieved no child support, but in exchange my ex signed off on spousal support. 

And while where here, when it comes to mom blaming, my ex had reasons for leaving me.  Things sometimes go to shit, and I'm not blameless.  It just made economic sense for my daughers, for me to stay in the home with the girls, and more importantly it's always been my gut feeling that when men leave daughters, it tends to have a very negative effect on thier adult relationships with men later in life.

we must accept that some poeple will never find a mate and that those people are no less people or sexual than any one else. in my experience a man's emotional health is intimately linked to his sexual health. so is true of women but for men it think it is stronger.

I agree with the first part-- and that's why I think there will always be a need for professional services such as you offer, and I don't have a problem with that.  I'm not sure about the second part... I think when we examine the sexual and emotional differences between men and women,  the less significant they appear the closer we look.  I think it's... nuanced, the differences.  Not stark.

This is getting somewhat personal, and it's dangerous territory for me because I can blather too much information.  But here goes.  I'm not sure being a single dad is a barrier to finding a lover or another partner.  My intention was to go two years after my marriage without dating, or at least certainly one year.  In the mean time, I used the net to cast some bread upon the waters, in message boards/forums dedicated to a certain sexual milleu, shall we say.   My thinking was that I wanted to establish a fairly slow moving friendship with a woman whose sexual, and other interests dovetailed with mine.    I certainly wasn't ready for how eager many women were to strike up an intimate relationship with me.  And it continued "in real life" where casual conversations with women I met while out and about were often engineered by them to a point where I was supposed to ask them out for coffee, or ask for a phone number, or offer mine. Unfortunately, I wasn't ready. Well, fortunately, I wasn't ready.  I already had a friend, you see, and our friendship evolved rather nicely into matromony years later.

Where am I going with this.... oh yes.  Lest anyone think I  think I am god's gift to women, rest assured that's not the case.  I can't lie here anyway; Michelle, Maysie, Sineed have all seen my face made for radio and my middle aged paunch. (okay, it is offset by an always fashionable mullet)  So, I think there is a certain special cache that single dads whose kids reside with them have.  It makes you "safe" and it makes you... a martyr? A person with a proven track record with commitment?  I'm not sure.  But it's about as good as owning a Corvette.

Now, in the time I was truly single, did the lack of sex with someone else become an issue to my health emotionally or otherwise?   I'd say not.  Then, that may be because of factors particular to me.  Yes, I am...libidinous... but then I'm fortunate to have a vivid imagination, also.  Relief, shall we say, was always close at hand.

Tommy_Paine wrote:

 Now, in the time I was truly single, did the lack of sex with someone else become an issue to my health emotionally or otherwise?   I'd say not.  Then, that may be because of factors particular to me.  Yes, I am...libidinous... but then I'm fortunate to have a vivid imagination, also.  Relief, shall we say, was always close at hand.

 

I agree with much of your assesment of this matter & to some folks 1-2 years without sounds like a mighty dry spell.  However, your experience was self-imposed and you received regular (though perhaps unwanted) evidence of your desirability.  You had a significant amount of control over your situation and an apparent array of options.  This is not the situation that Susan has referred to.

Since folks here share their experiences...  I spent more than two decades wandering in the desert before the rains finally arrived this year (1984-2009).  Having a social support network, be it family, friends or just the people at work was critical to me through this long period of unwanted celebacy.  I cannot say that my physical health is any worse than I should expect given my lifestyle.  I do know that my self esteem & feeling of self worth took a heck of a pounding throughout that period of my life.  Though issues do remain, particularly with social graces, a more normal sex life has made a significant change if how I perceive myself.  I don't regret that I didn't seek out the services of a sex worker in all that time but I can certainly understand why someone else might.

On the topic of the title, it is funny how there is another thread that forbids sex workers who do enjoy their work from posting (feminism forum).   This refusal to hear the very ones who have the experience and knowledge with that there there we know what's best for you, poor things, is pretty much insulting, imo.   Then the loaded explanation of the purpose of the thread, which is that if you are pro-decrim that means you are pro-pimp lol.   Ridiculous oversimplification of something that is not even very complicated.  Remove these outdated and unnecessary laws and you will improve the lives of the sex workers you claim to want to help.  Evidence supports it, over and over.  Including the evidence of the negative impact of restricting the public safety of street based workers.

And don't diminish my choices, experience and knowledge by going on to tell me that I do not enjoy the people who visit me, and that I do not find value in what I do.   On the other hand, find me one single working person who doesn't at some time complain about their work day lol. 

Regarding comments on a poll asking at what age did you start, a few examples of POVs from working service providers:

"i'm one of the old chickies that started in my late 30's. I'm so glad i did!"

"(at 26) I just started last year, and this has been a BLAST! Had a great year, and here is to many more!"

"30. I found in my late 20's I was wanting to explore, & when I hit 30 I was very curious about trying it out. I liked it so much I stuck with it."

"19! I thought I knew everything about life and sex and I knew nothing. That's being 19 for ya."

"I was 19, although ever since I was 13 I thought it would be cool"

"I was 16 the first time I ever did this and 18 when I became a full time SP. It was from personal choice. I don't regret a day of it!!!"

"It frustrates & angers me when "they" say ALL providers are into it for the money, drugs, getting pimped/victimized. Yes there are many many negative, destructive reasons some are in the sex trade...that is all over the world. I never expected myself to get into this industry...I am 28 turning 29 in December. I started this about 1yr ago...so a "rookie" as far as providers go...but I have been in it long enough to learn I enjoy myself, my sexual nature, and men with what I provide."

"I started at 23. I had many offers as a young teenager during my hitchhiking days but never took the plunge until after I finished college. I'm happy that I never did it because I had to, but chose to do it when I wanted (and was ready) to."

"I was 25.  I had thought about being an escort since I was about 17 though."

These are more stories, for those who have mind open enough to hear more than rhetoric and biased reports from one single source.  Those who want to criminalize the activities around the legal work of prostitution affect all of these voices, the ones who have chosen this work, are not poor, uneducated addicts and who simply wish to be left alone and get on with it lol.

http://www.myfirstprofessionalsex.com/

"One of the things that has always fascinated me was the decision people make to go into sex work, especially prostitution and pornography. With the stigma attached to this kind of work, the decision to sell sex or perform sexually for money isn’t one most people take lightly. So why do people do it? The most basic answer, of course, is usually for financial gain. And though that may seem like the pat answer most outsiders believe it should be, there’s usually a much more substantial thought process that goes into the decision. My First Professional Sex is an attempt to capture those thoughts and understand why people make the decisions they do. Sex workers are human beings, just like everyone else. The stigma associated with their line of work can often be quite dehumanizing. And, sadly, there are a lot of misconceptions about what brings people to sex work. I hope to show that there are a wide variety of reasons people get into sex work – reasons that are unique to each individual, reasons that are just as valid as the reasons anyone gets into any other line of work."

Poll results on age of first sex work experience so far: 

15% under 18

30% from 18-22

38% 23-34

16% over 35 

almost 90 replies thus far

"Sex workers are so afraid of being stigmatized they had to fashion a fake argument and say they love the work. I understand the political need to get credibility. Get them alone and most sex workers say they wish they didn't have to do it. I want to talk about the reality, not the ideology. That's why I think two things can be true at the same time. It's hard work, and a violation of their bodies, but they have the right to do it in safety."

Of course, this is where they fail miserably.  To me, this person is trying to justify their statements with a "fake argument".  Because she cannot fathom that she would enjoy this work, therefore she feels perfectly free to invalidate and dismiss any sex worker's honest declarations of how they really feel.  Ridiculous, because this sort of tripe is used often so it doesn't matter what a working sex worker says they think, this sort of person says "there there, I know best.  Let me tell you how you feel".    Try taking the sex out of the work, just once, and see how ridiculous it sounds when you try to apply it to any other worker.  I've been alone with a few sex workers, and not one single one of them ever said that they "wish they didn't have to do it".   Each and everyone of them, at some point, has said, though,  "I LOVE MY JOB!!".

I don't know many working people, regardless of what they work at, who would not prefer to be independently wealthy so they don't have to clock in every day.   But I am damn sure, based on my experience and actual face to face conversations with real sex workers, that they would probably still choose to do the work even then lol.   They enjoy sex, they enjoy spending time with men, the $$ makes it possible for them to pay the rent too.   I cannot think of too many regular jobs out there that allows people to do something that is, in the end, about pleasure.

100 replies to my polls, and survey says:  85% of sex workers started when they were over 18.  16% of them were over 35.  How do these people try to explain the mature woman who quits a 6 figure income in a soul-sucking job to do this?  Or, hey, imagine someone coming into your job and saying, "there there, I don't care if you say you enjoy being a teacher, I KNOW that you cannot possibly mean  it."

Judge chides jury for having too much compassion for woman who castrated her rapist dad in order to protect his grandaughters. Source

Women who fight back are always denied by authorities this compassion society decrees for any men who complain of not having enough of whatever they want.

From the opening post: ...for some of us, choosing to work for minimum wage and living in poverty are unacceptable and we prefer (ENTER WHATEVER)

I wonder just how many people choose poverty and minimum wage conditions.

Why wouldn't disallowing the purchase of sex, the recourse to economic power as a shortcut to negotiating sexual relating, lead to a healthier view of sexuality? It does for me. Consider an analogy; interpersonal conflict is not the easier path: it calls for listening, moving away from one's personal viewpoint and agreeing to seek a common view, even if it is not the one we started out with. To bypass this process, one can always resort to power, intimidation, pulling rank, violence even, in brief exercising privilege. Isn't remaining outside of that sphere more healthy? We can think of other fields of human agency where the use of money or force is disallowed. And we can look at jurisdictions and situations where recourse to them have led to loss of humanity.

To restate the opening question "Are there some of us who insist on NOT buying or selling their sex life, and is that simple idiosyncrasy? Or are there significant equalitarian values involved?" If so, don't we want a society where alternatives to prostitution and blocks to sexual exploitation systems would make that possible for all, even the poor and the racialized? How do we get there? How much do we want to?

The notion of "vice" doesn't enter the equation for me, and my personal history did not include it either. I find that the problem is less a prohibition creating demand than a traditional licence to use power for convenience, one that has been progressively cut back by people growing to understand its harms by finally listening to the people being harmed.

If so, don't we want a society where alternatives to prostitution and blocks to sexual exploitation systems would make that possible for all, even the poor and the racialized? How do we get there? How much do we want to?

Certainly not by making things illegal, and getting our justice system-- increasingly one of the more powerfull enforcers of the rights of the priveleged to expoit the rest-- involved.

I think the starting point is with our popular culture, what our kids see on T.V., what toys are used to indoctrinate them, and the lack of cultural counter balances against it. 

It might sound nuts to equate, for example, the advent of auto tune in the music industry and Bratz Dolls, and wall to wall pharmacuetical advertizing on American T.V. to the degradations we see, and everyone is against, happening in our streets to sex trade workers who are there because they are addicted to Perdue Pharmacuetical's Oxycontin, but it's not as nutso as you might think.

The solution to this problem, and others, should not be delivered into the hands of the people who are the very cause of it.

martin dufresne wrote:

Judge chides jury for having too much compassion for woman who castrated her rapist dad in order to protect his grandaughters. Source

Women who fight back are always denied by authorities this compassion society decrees for any men who complain of not having enough of whatever they want.

What has this got to do with the topic under discussion?   Are you seriously trying to link sex work, sex workers and a prevalence of violence in the world.  Is this woman a sex worker?  Is this man a client of sex workers?  What is your point?

Tommy_Paine wrote:

If so, don't we want a society where alternatives to prostitution and blocks to sexual exploitation systems would make that possible for all, even the poor and the racialized? How do we get there? How much do we want to?

 

Certainly not by making things illegal, and getting our justice system-- increasingly one of the more powerfull enforcers of the rights of the priveleged to expoit the rest-- involved.

I think the starting point is with our popular culture, what our kids see on T.V., what toys are used to indoctrinate them, and the lack of cultural counter balances against it. 

It might sound nuts to equate, for example, the advent of auto tune in the music industry and Bratz Dolls, and wall to wall pharmacuetical advertizing on American T.V. to the degradations we see, and everyone is against, happening in our streets to sex trade workers who are there because they are addicted to Perdue Pharmacuetical's Oxycontin, but it's not as nutso as you might think.

The solution to this problem, and others, should not be delivered into the hands of the people who are the very cause of it.

 

The illegalization of what is already and has been legal will cause all sorts of problems.  Prostitution is illegal in the US, and we see a much more violent culture there, a lot more marginalized street scene, and all sorts of associated problems when you keep something like this against the law.  New Zealand has decriminalized it and regulated it, and now we see the police attention can be exactly where everyone claims they want it to be:  foreign workers trafficked, underage workers, people trying to pimp them out.  If a sex worker is working licensed and legally, she has no need for protection, therefore no need for a pimp.  If she can only work by presenting ID, she cannot easily work underage -- which is not the case here.  It is very easy for someone to work underage, because licensing is not required.  If you license sex workers, then you have to acknowledge that they will be working somewhere, which means by extension you have to decrim the bawdy house law so she has a place to work.  So the authorities know who everyone is, where they are located, and that they are being safe.  Criminalizing all these things keeps them underground, avoiding help if needed and isolated from their peers. 

I don't drink, but I am not campaigning to criminalize the purchasers of alcohol, nor am I trying to abolish all access to alcohol so no one else can drink.  I don't assume that all drinkers are alcoholics though, and that it should be illegal to "protect" them.  Yet I do think alcohol is evil and leads to people doing evil things lol.  I do not however, think sex is evil and leads to people doing evil things lol.

Loretta wrote:

This is the description of this forum:A place for sex workers and their allies to discuss issues around, and advocacy of, sex workers' rights. This implies that it is limited to support (advocacy) for the complete decriminalization/legalization position.

It is not always wise to assume implications that may not be there.  Certainly abolitionists have posted in this forum frequently and with all prejudices included.  I did not see anyone specifically telling you that you should stop posting, yet this is the third time you have claimed that you have been told that, and the third or fourth time (or more) that you have specifically been told that that is not the case.  Simply repeating your assumption over and over will not make it true, btw.  Accept the fact that you can post here and let it go, for heaven's sake.

I think you are deliberately misinterpreting the facts (huge surprise).   And deliberately ignoring the reference, which I shall post here so everyone knows what it looks like when someone posts that other voices are NOT permitted lol:

"I request that people who favor decriminalization of johns, procurement, and bawdy houses etc. not post in this thread.

This thread assumes that posters are against laws that criminalize prostitutes but are in favor of laws that criminalize johns and 3rd party involvement.

I hope the focus can be on discussing the harms caused by the industry to individuals, minority groups and humanity.

The intent is to provide a space that will not be interrupted by back and forth arguments concerning legalization although the conversation may consider the connection to different legal frameworks in which the harm occurs."

This is how the thread mentioned in the other forum starts.  Please do me the courtesy of actually reading what I posted here before commenting on what I have posted. 

And, btw, this is the title of this thread:

are there sex workers/adult entertainers who enjoy their jobs?

Ignoring the answers doesn't make people here look like they are very open to discussion.

If I seem confrontational, in a way that is my intent.  It is time for you to hear from the other side of this debate.  You can no longer tell yourselves that you have heard all the stories and you know all the answers.  You cannot silence the truth, or the voices that so obviously shatter some deeply held assumptions and beliefs.   They are not true, in the way they have been presented to you in the past.  It is time for you all to wake up, do your own research, and at least make some informed decisions.  You look at susi's posts, based on her work in this field for decades, based on her talks with other workers, based on real life experiences, and say, oh, she must be wrong, she's delusional, she cannot possibly know what she is talking about, or well, that might be true for one, but that cannot possibly be true for the majority of them. 

She literally speaks for the hundreds or thousands out there who you don't see standing on the street corners, and frankly it is time that you listened if you really want to learn about this topic.  Remember when people (men) said that women were incapable of forming opinions for themselves, so it was pointless for them to have the vote?

I intially came into this thread to respond to part of it but here's something from post #31.

fortunate wrote:

You seem to have missed the OP of that other thread who specifically stated that pro-decrim comments and commentators were unwelcome.  You can hardly focus on a response to that and try to make it look like susi is the one restricting comments from anyone who disagrees.  The fact is, dissenting opinions have not been specifically restricted in this forum or this thread, unlike the one you are referring to."

So the reality is that these threads are restricted to proponents of full decrim with some few nebulous exceptions.

I look like a dog with a bone? This is your argument? Well done.

Did I miss the post that announced that you're a moderator? Perhaps it was in the "for sex workers and their allies" only forum.

Loretta wrote:

What I hear is that you believe that you have a right to work in this field of employment and are challenging the Criminal Code that prohibits solicitation. In my view, anytime that there is a "right to work" approach to employment, it raises red flags for me. It strikes me as though the employer's interests that are being served and this situation seems no different to me.

You would have to address the fact that most other legal occupations (in fact, probably no other legal employment) do not have Criminal Code clauses that interfere with their ability to do the work legally and safely.   The "right to work" in this field is a foregone conclusion and not up for debate, in other words.  

What I don't understand is why people don't get that sex workers are almost always self-employed.  There are few "employers" per se.  They do contract work though agencies and so on, but typically their rates and schedules are determined by themselves, and the conditions for using the location are part of this agreement.   If, however, they did not face the possibility of being criminally charged for working from home, I imagine that even more of them would be self-employed small business owners. Because they are in criminal danger, they avoid home-work arrangements because it increases their risk of charges.

Unless you have a problem with the "employer's" interests being one and the same as the "employee", then this should not be a concern.    If anyone has difficulty with the idea of self-employment, then they are going to have difficulty with this whole industry.  Some of you see it as a downside, if the worker is charged a room fee for working at an mp, but she is simply renting her work space.   What she charges above this fee is hers. The "employer's" expenses are met through the room fees.

I know this concept is confusing, because the majority of society prefers to only consider street workers who jump into cars, can't manage their affairs, substandard living and working conditions, but seriously, get over it.  Perhaps the idea of someone living in comfort, going on vacations, owning property and assets, managing marketing and advertising, paying taxes, incorporation concerns, and so on because they work in the sex industry is the problem.  There are some who feel that no one should profit or advance or flourish in this work.  That does seem very judgemental, imo.  

Now, on the actual topic in the headline of this thread:

www.canadianescortsdoc.com/information.html

Canadian Escorts - Happy, proud and doing it by choice will be a reality documentary focusing on the lives of four (4) different proud and happy escorts in the Ottawa and/or Toronto area.The tone and feel of the documentary will be to debunk the societal myth that all women working in the sex trade industry are victims who are being forced to work in the industry. It will focus on the positive aspects of escorting and how (if done right) it can be a very enjoyable, empowering profession.It will also challenge Canadian laws that make it difficult for escorts to be safe. i.e. bawdy house laws preventing escorts from working from the safety of their own premises.



Ouch, how many more voices is that, supporting the "claims" of only 2 here that sex workers can and do enjoy this work?

Oh, and that, oh me oh my I can't post here because blah blah balh is a bunch of passive aggressive ridiculousness.  Clearly, in spite of the "fact" you claim you are not "allowed" to post in this forum, it sure hasn't stopped you.