Ontario native leaders warning they will turn reserves into tax-free shopping zones unless HST is pulled

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martin dufresne
Ontario native leaders warning they will turn reserves into tax-free shopping zones unless HST is pulled

This just in from First Nations & Aboriginal Rights FaceBook Cause page

Ontario native leaders are warning they will turn their reserves into tax-free shopping zones unless Queen's Park and Ottawa back down from a harmonized sales tax that would strip tax exemptions from the province's status Indians.

Selling more goods tax free and under the table would build on the existing practice of selling cheap cigarettes to non-natives on reserve - the so-called smoke shacks already causing major headaches for governments, police and the Canada Revenue Agency.

"If this is going to be imposed on our communities, I think you are going to see - and this is not a threat, by any means - but I would certainly as a business person look at the opportunity that exists," said Blaine Commandant, the chief of Wahta Mohawk First Nation in Ontario's Muskoka region, north of Toronto.

Mr. Commandant notes that some reserves already waive the taxes on sales to non-natives and could expand the practice by creating "tax-free zones" to entice non-native shoppers.

"It's happening now. It could happen on a much larger scale, and why not? You want to buy a car, you come and get it from me and I'll not charge you the extra 10-15 per cent on a $50,000 vehicle. That's a nice chunk of money."

At issue is the fact that Ontario's 8-per-cent retail sales tax rules for status Indians are different than the exemption rules for the 5-per-cent federal goods and services tax. Ontario is one of the last provinces to have more relaxed rules than Ottawa when it comes to sales tax exemptions for natives.

To obtain a GST exemption in Canada, a status Indian must buy the product on reserve or have off-reserve goods shipped to an on-reserve address.

However, Ontario allows the RST to be waived on site for off-reserve purchases. The provincial policy essentially puts the onus on the individual, not the business, to bring the product back to the reserve, and there is no need to prove where a product ended up.

The Ontario government announced earlier this year that it would harmonize its retail sales tax with the federal goods and services tax starting on July 1, 2010.

While talks continue between native leaders, Queen's Park and Ottawa, officials confirmed that the current plan is for Ottawa to administer the harmonized tax under federal rules. That means Ontario natives would no longer receive the RST tax exemption at point of purchase off-reserve.

Ontario chiefs say the requirement to ship goods to a reserve effectively negates the tax credit, because businesses would charge a shipping fee.

A spokesperson for Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said the minister has urged his federal counterpart, Jim Flaherty, to find a more "flexible" arrangement for status Indians. Federal officials have said only that federal rules will apply to the HST, and Mr. Flaherty's office declined to comment specifically on the chiefs' concerns.

Angus Toulouse, who represents the chiefs of Ontario, said many natives are not aware of how the HST will affect their communities. He also notes that the change will impose higher costs on some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in the province.

"A lot of our people are below the poverty line and this is just going to be taxing them even more," Mr. Toulouse said.

The issue is less controversial in British Columbia, the other province that is moving to an HST next July 1, because the province's sales tax rules are similar to the GST rules. Delivery to a reserve is also required in Quebec for a status exemption from provincial sales tax.

In 1996, Newfoundland, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia agreed to harmonize their sales taxes with the GST.

Regional chief Rick Simon, who represents native communities in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, said most businesses and natives have found ways to avoid the shipping obligations.

Nonetheless, Mr. Simon said he supports the campaign of his Ontario colleagues on an issue that is considered a matter of native rights. "If you've got the right to do it, then policy doesn't override that, despite how much the federal government likes to shove it down our throats," he said. "Just based on the experience you've seen out of Ontario - and especially the Mohawks - I know they'll stand up and take the government on on this one."

remind remind's picture

Oh my!

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/hst/article/734187--protest-over-hst?bn=1

 

Quote:
First Nations protesters angry over the coming harmonized sales tax are marching on downtown streets.

Police are blocking intersections ahead of the protesters, who number in the hundreds, as they head down University Avenue, south of Queen's Park.
...

 

Aboriginal Affairs Minister Brad Duguid says the province supports demands for the exemption and is urging Ottawa to get behind the move.

But the New Democrats say the province "sold out" First Nations by failing to consult with them ahead of negotiations with Ottawa and is now simply trying to shift the blame to the federal government.

Stargazer

I'm afraid to read the article because I already know what the comments will be like.

Bacchus

*sigh* it would not end well. When it comes to tax revenues, governments play dirty and I can see nice border posts around those tax free shopping making non-reserve people pay the GST and PST on the spot

Charter Rights

Tax free shopping zones will go underground, no doubt. The government cannot deal with the estimed $60 billion underground economy now as it is. If FN were to add another $2 billion, who would notice........

madmax

I see  Federal Tax Collection stations for those non status people leaving the reserve with consumer goods.   I see the Provinces enforcing Smokes taken off the reserve to appease Cigerette companies.

I see the hugest underground market you can think of and lots of coopertation on all sides to avoid this tax and infringement of rights.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
When it comes to tax revenues, governments play dirty and I can see nice border posts around those tax free shopping making non-reserve people pay the GST and PST on the spot

 

And I would assume progressives would support this, yes? Or otherwise someone tell me why *I* should have to pay taxes then. Aren't we all supposed to be happy to contribute to the many wonderful things Canada provides for us?

Michelle

It's part of the treaty rights for aboriginal people to have exemption from certain taxes.  The idea being that Europeans came and stole their land and set up these tax systems.  They have a right to reparations, and a right to not have to pay into a system they did not establish, and indeed was established on land stolen from them.

Snert Snert's picture

Agreed.  I'm NOT talking about FN having to pay taxes. 

I'm talking about non-FN Canadians shopping on reserve to avoid paying taxes.  In that I'd love to not pay taxes either, I'm not sure why I'd support that (or, conversely, why I wouldn't support the government collecting those revenues, as was suggested).

RANGER

Michelle wrote:

It's part of the treaty rights for aboriginal people to have exemption from certain taxes.  The idea being that Europeans came and stole their land and set up these tax systems.  They have a right to reparations, and a right to not have to pay into a system they did not establish, and indeed was established on land stolen from them.

 

Hmmmm, when I arrived on earth there was no GST or HST do I have a right to not pay? my quality of life is being stolen daily!

yarg

Michelle wrote:

It's part of the treaty rights for aboriginal people to have exemption from certain taxes.  The idea being that Europeans came and stole their land and set up these tax systems.  They have a right to reparations, and a right to not have to pay into a system they did not establish, and indeed was established on land stolen from them.

 

They have a right to reparations..

So, considering pretty much all of the land on the planet was stolen from somebody at some point most of us are in as much need of reparations as this countries aboriginals are, where are my reparations for my ancestors expulsion from the maritimes, or brutal british rule in Scotland for centuries? Please..Stealing land is what humans did and do, lets not get overly dramatic.

Charter Rights

RANGER wrote:

Hmmmm, when I arrived on earth there was no GST or HST do I have a right to not pay? my quality of life is being stolen daily!

Ummm....well no....

 

That ended when your parents registered your birth. However, you have never had to pay taxes and it was always your choice to do so. The consequences for failing to pay may end up costing you your liberty but some rich dudes reckon it is worth it. Conrad certainly thinks it was...

As far a stolen land goes yarg, there are no reparations for you. You have no claim to the land. First Nations not only had the land, but the British recognized it was theirs and then made deals for us to use it for our homes and farms. They did not however, bargin to allow us to destroy it, or contaminate it with our garbage, and so they have a continuing interest that competes and often over-rides our interest.

 

Taxation, like hunting and fishing laws was an imposition on our freedoms. We cannot impose those restrictions on First Nations, since the very formation of this country depended on it. Now the over-riding factor is the "honour of the Crown", in recognizing and adhering to the many agreements we made with First Nations. That cannot be wiped out by money, or by statue. So the only thing to do is to find ways that we can work with First Nations, so that they benefit from our progress and don't become the dumping ground for our wastes.

 

Those who might prefer the more radical route of ignoring First Nation rights should take heed. In the 1996 report from the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, it warned that native youths are becoming increasingly impatient with lands claims and the oppression of rights. I would suggest that for every stone one might throw at native people they will have 100 thrown back. As we see in the most recent history in Ontario, First Nations people are standing up to the tyranny of big corporations and government. If they are willing to take on Goliath without hesitation, what makes anyone think that silly minor ignorunts will even have a chance at getting attention? Ants have a greater possibly of survival than anyone taking on First Nation youths and expecting not to have their anger and hate returned 100 fold.....

Charter Rights

As to returning to the subject of this thread.....

 

The police and govenrment have far better things to do than to watch people travel in and out of reserves. Shopping on many First Nations territories is tax free. While the Indian Act provides that native people cannot be subject to a charge, mortgage, levy, tax, incumbrance or seizure, and we can be taxed, while operating on reserves no penalty can come if the Native vendor refuses to collect the tax. On one reserve I am familiar with the Band Council made a by-law that actually prohibits any business from collecting or paying tax on the reserve. As such CRA cannot come in to seize the assets of any business owner who chooses not to particpate in the tax grab.

 

Secondly, the government does not issue non-native "status" cards. As such it it impossible to decide who might be native and who is not when doing business. So when anyone shops in a tax-free zone, they are not obligated to pay tax.

 

So I would suggest that anyone who is willing to buy from a reserve do so, without hesitation. The government and the police simply do not have the resources to go after someone who buys tires, or a shirt or any services from a reserve, while the off-reserve underground construction industry avoids paying billions each year in taxes. The small fish aren't worth it to them.

With the introduction of the HST in Ontario, I suspect that reserve shopping will become much bigger. Not only will the tax issue become a problem for the govenrment but businesses in our towns and cities will suffer the loss of clientele...which in turn means less tax revenue... So shopping on reserve becomes a protest agains the HST.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
So shopping on reserve becomes a protest agains the HST.
 

And even moreso against the "businesses in our towns and cities" that you mention.

But you do seem to agree that taxes are nothing more than theft by our government, and should be vigorously avoided whenever possible.  Yes?

Fidel

Snert wrote:
But you do seem to agree that taxes are nothing more than theft by our government, and should be vigorously avoided whenever possible.  Yes?

It's theft when our stooges collect the taxes and fritter them away on debt interest charges doled out to their creditor friends. It's a colonial setup in Bananada.

"Never let them make so much as a hairpin" - Ben Disraeli on British colonies

Snert Snert's picture

What about when they fritter them away on roads and health care and such?  Should we still try to avoid chipping in?

Fidel

Snert wrote:

What about when they fritter them away on roads and health care and such?  Should we still try to avoid chipping in?

What about when they cut taxes for profitable corporations and raise them for everyone else? Apparently their friends can avoid paying taxes but not the rest of the working class slobs. 

remind remind's picture

yarg wrote:
They have a right to reparations..

So, considering pretty much all of the land on the planet was stolen from somebody at some point most of us are in as much need of reparations as this countries aboriginals are, where are my reparations for my ancestors expulsion from the maritimes, or brutal british rule in Scotland for centuries? Please..Stealing land is what humans did and do, lets not get overly dramatic.

Are you serious?

 

 

RANGER

Snert wrote:

What about when they fritter them away on roads and health care and such?  Should we still try to avoid chipping in?

 

 

This is what taxes are supposed to be for, by the Liberal's own admission HST will not go toward these essentials or anything close to it, we used to funnel our taxes towards these kinds of things, and we kept more of the money we earned at the same time, when governments got stressed, they turned to things like user fees and gaming money's that have seemed mysteriously to go off into the abyss, we are over and mismanaged and if we where a company would have been bankrupt or atleast spanked a long time ago.

Fidel

If there were no other rich countries with more efficient tax regimes and actually spending that money on what it's supposed to be allocated to, it might make pulling the wool over everyone's eyes here, in the Northern Puerto Rico,  an easier task for our colonial administrators. But there are, and we're on to the bastards.

canuck2

Since I live less than five miles from a First Nations Reserve, if they start selling stuff that I need, I'll buy from them to avoid paying the extra 8% when applied.  The particular reserve that I frequent did have a petrol station that shut down.  Perhaps they'll open it again when they're assured lots of non-natives will drive there to avoid the increase in gasoline. 

Governments pay no heed to taxpayer's needs, so I'd avoid getting myself tied into knots by going where I don't have to pay their tax grab. I strongly doubt McGuinty will get elected his next time at the polls.  I'm a senior on a fixed income who doesn't get raises that equal the cost of living.   MPAC never did send me a reply after my letter before the time limit that my municipal taxes were unfairly increased.   Time is overdue for me to start ignoring them!

Charter Rights

The only way to inspire government to change is to take away their revenue.

Native cigarettes, booze in the 1990's and buying First Nations or underground can have an impact on the overall revenues. Take away the tax and there is no doubt that goverment will reconsider their tax grab.

 

However, if all we do is pay the tax and go back to sleep, then they will have gotten away with it.

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:

The only way to inspire government to change is to take away their revenue.

 

We couldn't try voting for a different government?

 

I mean, I like the idea of keeping my money just as much as the next citizen, but usually people who don't want to pay taxes (who call taxes "theft" or "a cash grab") are looney rightwing libertarians and such. Are we saying that they're onto something? That maybe they're not so kooky after all? Or is it only kooky when *they* don't want to pay tax?

 

Honestly, you could lift this entire thread and drop it onto an AM radio talk show and nobody would bat an eye.

 

"What we've got to do is stop letting the government pick our pockets of our hard earned money!!!"

SparkyOne

 

FN people are upset at the government for breaking the law so they turn around and do it right back.

Charter Rights

Tax exemption is not breaking the law. And neither is shopping on a  First Nation territory if you are not native. You see the government tries to bully the vendor into collecting tax from us at the point of sale. However, when we buy stuff it is us that owes the tax, not the vendor.

So if we buy something on a reserve under the Indian Act they are not required to pay tax on their own property (a sale from an unincorporated business as well as the income generated is considered personal property). It would be no different than going to your neighbour's yard sale and buying his old stuff.

Tax is important only when it is a means to redistribute the wealth, and to provide services in common. However, we see all levels of governments abusing that trust and filling their own pockets. Taxation is no longer about benefiting the whole so it is no longer an obligation as far as I am concerned.

Tax revolt then becomes a tool to force the government to act wisely. Elections simply replace the old crooks with new ones, having learned their lessons well from the old masters. The only way to stop the government abuses is to interupt their flow of money. As it stands the $500 million or so that government says it loses to the cigarette trade hasn't even made them bat an eye. So perhaps the best way to show our displeasure would be to up the ante to 10 times that figure and see if we can get their attention.....

 

 

Bacchus

But they could set up border like posts near a reserve and make anyone non-native coming from it pay the taxes. Since you are supposed to pay the tax on anything you buy even if you buy it somewhere else but consume it (use it) in Ontario for example.

Charter Rights

Cross border shopping brings in more goods than would ever be worthwhile on EVERY reserve, and yet they don't stop all the cars and make people pay sales tax. As well they cannot restrict the freedom of a citizen within Canada - that is a Charter Right - unless it can be reasonably justified....which I think they would have a hard time at doing. Even illegal stops and searches wouldn't do it. I'm sure the police have far better things to do than to check women's purses and frisk their buttocks.

People in live in Quebec and buy Ontario tax free do not get searched by Ottawa police. That would be a lame exercise. So Ottawa and HUll are free for alls for most residents on either side of the provincial borders.

 

Bacchus

Yes but they could. In fact when you declare stuff at the border, part of the duty is PST if you live in Ontario.  Just becuase they don't do it much now doesnt mean they cannot do it at all. Or won't do it more in the future. If it was a reserve far from a large city I doubt they would give a flying fuck but one relatively close to a major city they might if it showed to be too attractive to non-natives

Charter Rights

The underground economy in Canada is estimated to be as high as $80 billion. CRA has not been able to crack that nut. And so if we invest in and support the underground economy - cash only transactions - then we place the burden on to industry, commerce, business and resources. Once the rich guys start yelling about high taxes, them perhaps govenrment will listen.

 

It is all about protest and not accepting the status quo. There is little that the government can do when they cannot trace the source.

Cross border shopping is only one of many acts of protest. Funny thing about it, is that I know from a friend who is a Border Security Officer for CBSA and they only pull over their "profiles". That means the average Joe gets a free pass almost 90% of the time.

Here's what happens when they go after the wrong people...

http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2232346

Charter Rights

BTW

 

Your fear is your enemy. Not me.

Bacchus

LOL I don't have the fear dude, nor do I see you as the enemy. Naive perhaps but not the enemy.

RANGER

Charter Rights wrote:

The underground economy in Canada is estimated to be as high as $80 billion.

 

 

Do you have a link for this estimate you've stated?

RANGER

Thanks, having trouble opening that but thanks all the same.

Charter Rights

"Unrecorded annual economic activity is estimated at between $70 and $100 billion in Canada."

Responsible Citizenship and Canada's Tax System

There were more links when I searched before. The original Candian Revenue Agency link that I referenced suggested that the underground economy was as high as 33% of the GDP...which in 2003 (from the same reference) was $250 billion. I did the math.

 

 

Fidel

 

[url=http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Denley+McGuinty+math+good/2991839/stor... math on HST isn't good[/url]  Ottawa Citizen

 

Quote:
OTTAWA — One could argue that Ontario's new harmonized sales tax is good public policy, but there has never been any doubt that most ordinary working people would face an increased tax burden. That was certainly reinforced this week, when the provincial NDP released an analysis showing an average family would pay $792 more annually in sales tax.

Media reports of Dalton McGuinty's reaction made it seem as if the premier was finally admitting there would be a net cost for families, but the key words in his quote were "at the outset." Basically, McGuinty is sticking to his story that the HST won't hurt anyone too much, although he didn't exactly refute the NDP analysis, which is based on Statistics Canada data and methodology. McGuinty's statement that he is "not a fan of NDP math" falls a little short of proof that the NDP math was wrong.

[url=http://www.scstandard.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2564731]HST hikes tax burden: economist[/url]

 

thanks

McGuinty's Feed-In Tariff contract for energy producers states that governments cannot introduce any new rules which would have an 'adverse material affect' on suppliers (or lenders).  New corporate taxes are rules that arguably could create such 'adverse affect'. 

It seems that NAFTA and interprovincial deal provisions restricting governments have been taken too far, extended into anti-social 'regulation' which dumps all costs on consumers and residents.

The current US Senate Wall Street 'reform' bill includes similar restrictions against rules which materially affect financiers, and Harper/McGuinty signed a procurement pact with the US that gives their financiers inroads.

---

A couple of days ago i checked the text of the Harper-EU deal (CETA) at the Trade Justice Network website.  There are clauses which say the deal can't prevent government from imposing new tax, but only taxes that do "not arbitrarily discriminate between persons, goods or services of the Parties" along with a host of other restrictions.  In the CETA, corporations in Europe are defined as 'natural persons' of Canada.  Corporations and bankers can argue new targetted corporate taxes are a barrier to trade. 

I'm wondering if existing 'trade', interprovincial deals, and regs within provinces, are being interpreted by corporate lawyers to define new corporate taxes as 'discriminatory' between ordinary people and corporations.

 

 

 

 

lepidoptera

I live very close to the Six Nations and it already is a tax free shopping zone for very many non-FN in town.  It's almost unheard of   not to get your smokes on the rez.  @ $20 per carton...I guess so.  Buying fireworks, gas, cars, computers.....on the rez is very common.  It's interesting to see the lame attempts by the local authorities to control this.  There is a section of road (about 4 miles) after leaving the city limits and heading toward the rez, which under normal circumstances would be an 80kph zone. This section of road is a 50kph zone.  I guess they can't just randomly pull you over for no reason but if you're speeding that's different. I laugh every time I go out there and see the line of cars putting along at 50kph knowing that most trunks are filled with cheap smokes or computers. We all pass by the perpetual speed trap as we get back to town knowing that we are safe from illegal search and seizure because there is no lawful reason to be pulled over.

Snert Snert's picture

Congratulations on successfully avoiding paying for the services you use!  Taxes are for those not clever enough to avoid them, yes?

lepidoptera

Snert wrote:

Congratulations on successfully avoiding paying for the services you use!  Taxes are for those not clever enough to avoid them, yes?

I guess that's better than paying for a service and not being allowed to use it. (The separate school system in Ontario). I consider it a refund.

Bacchus

Don't worry lepi if it gets used too much, then they will enact a law allowing searches of non FNs leaving a reseve.

 

They dont like losing revenue Laughing

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
I guess that's better than paying for a service and not being allowed to use it. (The separate school system in Ontario). I consider it a refund.

 

Hear hear. When am I ever going to use a youth drop-in centre, or a women's shelter? The government must have some idea of the things we actually use; why can't they just bill us for those, eh?

Fidel

Herbert Hoover raised taxes during an economic depression. And after he and conservative Republicans were thrown out of office, they continued to claim that they were actually being Keynesians at the time. But the truth is that they were anything but. Keynes said to raise taxes on those most able to afford them not the middle class and working poor. Instead of taxing those most able to pay, Hooverians pulled even more money out of an economy that was already starved of fuel and made things worse overall. There is zero proof that tax cuts for the rich and corporations leads to significant economic growth.