OUR GENDERS ARE NOT DISORDERED!!

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Cross Product
OUR GENDERS ARE NOT DISORDERED!!

Hello all.

I have lurked on and off for years at this site, but finally registered an account today because I have something to say.  Please listen to me.

I am trans.  I also have something called Klinefelter Syndrome: that is, I have forty-seven chromosomes instead of forty-six.  I have three sex chromosomes: XXY.  This is actually a not uncommon event; it has the same stastical likelyhood as Down Syndrome because the mechanism is the same, just acting on a different chromosome.

People with KS are raised as boys, and the majority are happy that way.  A significant fraction of us, however, are not.  I am one of them.

I am fortunate enough to have a very good memory, and I remember my childhood vividly.  By the time I was six I was aware that something had gone wrong, that my body was screwed up and deformed.  I also learned that it was something that must never be talked about, ever ever ever.  It was worse than admitting to being a murderer in terms of social sanction for a small child.  Once others know, you can't take it back.  It instantly becomes a weapon that is employed enthusiastically by many, including adults and "authority figures."

I hid it away with suffocating zeal, but still I was called "faggot" more times than I can count.  I can think of a dozen individual, humiliating and physically dangerous events that involved the use of that word just off the top of my head.  To this day, if I hear someone yell that in the distance it freezes my heart and makes my blood run cold.

It gradually dawned on me that I would never enjoy my life; it would be a slow, long wait until death.  I got used to simply waiting out my life.  I thought of suicide every single day, but the truth is that the survival instinct and fear of death are incredibly strong and hard to overcome.  I tried to cope with what I guess you would call "death meditation," using meditation to take away my fear of death, so I could do it.

Puberty was a nightmare beyond description.  I had dreams about turning into a Mr Hyde-esque monster, and then I woke up every morning with stubble on my face and hair on my hands.  For my penis I felt the exact sort of visceral horror and loathing normally reserved for tapeworms and other internal parasites.  I felt ashamed, worthless, defective goods.  Truly I was worthy of death, but instead was punished with life.

I wore clothes down to rags, even though I wasn't poor.  What was the point of buying clothes?  I would hate how I looked no matter what I wore.  Might as well spend the money on more drugs.

Imagine you had a penis sticking out of your forehead.  No doubt you could have some fun with it, but you'd still want it off, right?  What if people told you you were crazy and disordered to want it off, that half the world has dicks on their foreheads and they like it, and we have to save you from yourself and keep you from making decisions that make us uncomfortable.

What other condition do you know where you have to prove yourself for two years (and sometimes sexual favours) before you are allowed medical care?  What other condition is there in which they send you a questionairre with questions like "have you ever been arrested" on it?  Not charged, not convicted, arrested.  Followed by a demand to know the circumstances of that arrest.  Accompanying the interrogation form was a letter to the effect that failure to answer all questions correctly will result in rejection of care.  Sadly, I threw them away, otherwise I would scan them and post them here.  Just to give you some idea about how we're treated.  Not patients, not human beings, just lab rats for the psychologists to wring some papers from, maybe get some more grant money, maybe make them famous and respected among their peers.  They were so ashamed of even being associated with me that they sent them in a plain brown envelope with no identification.  I'm surprised they don't handle us with latex gloves.

In the end, after my second suicide attempt nearly succeeded, when I woke up in the ER with tubes emerging from every orifice, that a loved one begged me to tell them what was wrong.  So, finally after 32 years which have felt like 32 centuries, I told them.  And I did it.  I did it without the Official Permission, without grovelling and scraping at the feet of people who despise me.  I made use of every resource available to me, and ruthlessly bulldozed through it all and came out of the other side happier than I have ever been able to remember.  And my memory is a good one.

Now, imagine how I feel when I read the revolting way the author of the thread with the lower-case version of this one's title was treated.  The Right hates us.  They spare no invective, no lie, no attribution of motive: literally anything goes.  Nothing is beyond the pale for them.  They will not rest until they have us tied to beds, full of Risperdal and half our brains removed until we are no longer a threat to their worldview.  And they get away with it because of something that I learned only recently, something shattering that pulled the carpet from under my understanding of human nature.

The Left hates us too.

 

I am going off to cry now.  Mods, please feel free to delete this thread and ban me.  I will understand.  And the rest of you guys feel free to pile on with the "oh boo hoo shut up you baby" comments.  I will also understand those too.  I have heard them many many times before.

Issues Pages: 
ennir

Not from me and not from many others here, thank you for taking the time to share your story.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Cross Product, what tremendous courage you have for what you've survived in your life, and also for sharing your story here. Thank you so much for what you've shared here and I hope you continue to contribute to babble.

As a moderator, I greatly welcome your voice, your experience and your views.

 

Stargazer

I agree with ennir. Cross Product I hope you stay. You'll find that the majority of us are allies. A big hug for you for laying it all out and exposing your vulnerabilities. That takes a lot of guts.

 

BTW Cross Product, have you seen the movie XXY yet?I bought it but haven't watched it yet.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0995829/

One of the comments from IMDB:

 

A Life Determining Conflict: Who Am I?, 27 October 2008
10/10
Author: gradyharp from United States

The chromosomal abnormality of XXY has been labeled as Klinefelter's Syndrome, hermaphroditism, and Intersex. The 'conception' defect results in a child with both male and female organs and when detected at birth usually results in a decision between physicians and parents to surgically alter the child to be one or the other phenotypic assignments - male or female. In this remarkably sensitive film based on a short story 'Cinismo' by Sergio Bizzio and adapted for the screen by writer/director Lucía Puenzo, XXY becomes a story of understanding and acceptance of a diagnosis by both child and parents and the conflicts such gender variation can present.

Alex (Inés Efron) is the XXY patient of the story, having been raised on the isolated coastline of Uruguay as a girl with the aid of supplemental hormones until age 15, the age when her loving Argentinean parents Kraken (Ricardo Darín) and Suli (Valeria Bertuccelli) have decided she should have her 'offending member' removed, allowing her to become a completely phenotypic female. Alex is deeply conflicted about her situation, refuses to take her medications and enjoys being 'one of the boys' in secret. When Alex's parents invite their surgeon friend Ramiro (Germán Palacios) and his wife Erika (Carolina Pelleritti) to their home to advise them on the surgical alternatives, they are accompanied by their artistic son Alvaro (Martín Piroyansky). There is an attraction between Alex and Alvaro and this ultimately results in a crisis that results in the coming of age and self-acceptance of both youngsters. Lucía Puenzo and her fine cast sensitively explore the interaction between parents and children and the coming to grips with choice of identity. This is yet another challenging and rewarding film from Argentina, one that stands alone as a fine movie, but one that also would be wise to add to the film libraries of high school and college students and of patient resource facilities who deal with problems of gender identity. Highly recommended. Grady Harp

 

Michelle

I can't imagine anyone not welcoming your voice here, Cross Product. Thanks so much for sharing your story.

j.m.

Looking back on that thread started by RTTG, I do feel bad for how I approached that conversation. It was a learning experience and I do feel bad that it was hurtful one at other people's expense.

I am sorry for being a cause of some of those hurtful comments.

RosaL

I have some problems with what some other people are saying but I have given up trying to discuss such issues here. But I have no problem and every sympathy with your story. I'm glad you're here. 

jas

From the original thread referred to started by RTTG, I counted four of us who posted any oppositional comments. One of those posters also apologized later for her particularly inflammatory comments as she had been experiencing some mental or other instability. The thread was also closed by a mod so that the conversation would not get any further derailed or disrespectful. I don't think it's fair to come in here and characterize this board as being unsupportive of trans issues when clearly the majority who care to comment here are.

That said, thanks for sharing your story, Cross Product. It helps those of us who are skeptical of some trans issues to understand better.

 

Cross Product

Hi there!  Thank you all so much for your support.  It's always very disheartening to see trans threads go the same way over and over, with nobody learning anything.  Only one defensive reply!

j.m, thanks for your unqualified apology.  I appreciate it.  I would like very much to educate people, and I know some have changed their minds. It's something that's close to my heart, obviously, so it's hard for me not to get emotional about it.  The part of me from childhood screams in my ear to shut up and hide.  I'm going to try to use analogies and metaphors that others can understand.

To jas, those four of you were amazingly good at derailing, and went way beyond "disrespectful."  It's also bitterly ironic and revealing that someone calls us crazy who has, as you put it, some mental instability.  I think my characterization is fair, because in spite of some wonderful supporters I have been reading predictable threads like these for years.  The fact that RosaL doesn't feel like she can even discuss the subject should tell you all you need to know.  The fact that the last thread degenerated into open taunting should tell you all you need to know.  Your skepticism is unjustified and I will explain how, if you're willing to listen.  I suspect that you're not, but it would be nice if you would prove me wrong.

Stargazer, I'm a great fan of yours!  I have great trouble watching any films or television involving trans issues.  Just looking at promotional stills for XXY is overwhelming.  Most XXY people are raised as boys because we usually pass the "ruler test" (which is literally the only test they use to determine what gender to force you into).  I wish they had raised me as a girl.  It would have solved everything in an instant.  So simple, and yet somehow so unacceptable.

I recommend reading Stone Butch Blues, and watching Boys Don't Cry and Southern Comfort.  They're almost impossible for me to sit through.

One problem is that when even well-meaning people speak for us, they can never know what we go through.  So many times we get talked over, and there are so terribly few of us that we're always massively outnumbered.  Many of us are dismayed at this and decide it's better to leave and hide away in secret.  I'm mostly a lurker and don't post a lot, usually when I feel something's not being said that needs to be.

I usually don't emphasize being XXY, because it's only tangentially related to the central issue.  I was lucky to escape the central crime of involuntary surgery, which needs to be banned NOW and the victims compensated generously.  It is monstrous and barbaric, no better than prefrontal lobotomy.  I can't speak for them or their trauma.

I can say what is necessary, though: on-demand access to transition-related medical care, including for children.  We are not confused.  We are not crazy.  We know exactly what is wrong and how to mitigate it, and all of us that I have ever met have always known.  This is crucial to understand.  We know long before we have any sort of political or social awareness.  We know as soon as we are aware that there exist two different kinds of people, that we are the wrong kind.  Again, I have never encountered a transperson for whom this was not the case.

The wrong puberty must be avoided at all cost!  This is central to quality of life.  Denial of this costs lives.  A lot of them.  I am fortunate in being XXY that mine was very weak and I look like any other tall woman.  But even what I did have was disastrous.  It fucked up my voice.  I had to have my facial hair follicles burned and blasted out by laser.  It was the most painful thing I have ever voluntarily put myself through.

There needs to be some simple, easy and private mechanism for changing documents.  Provincial governments are too ashamed to include any help for us on their websites, so you have to go digging and badgering.  It would also be nice if, when you are changing your driver's license, they didn't loudly say "DO YOU STILL HAVE A PENIS" to a room full of random people, and then "accidentally" losing the documentation so you have to go in and do it again, and hope you get someone else.  That was an actual experience, btw.

Another experience that happened to a trans friend when she went to her doctor for help.  He said, "no I won't help you.  You should move to a big city before someone beats the shit out of you."  Actual verbatim quote.

I already have a medical phobia, and the surgery was incredibly traumatic.  The epidural (huge needle in spine) got fucked up, which was a horrifying experience.  My mental and physical state deteriorated with constant panic attacks and flashbacks and paranoia until they subsided when I flew halfway around the world back home and could sleep in my own bed again.  Since there are only a dozen or so well-known and reputable surgeons who deign to help us (and they are pariahs in the medical community), we often have to travel around the world.  Still, I developed a deep fondness for Thailand when I was there.  I want to visit again under better circumstances.

I paid for my surgery and travel entirely out of pocket.  I am lucky because I come from a blue-blood academic dynasty of a family and have education and money, and some extremely wealthy relatives as a safety net (I have never asked for money from them, but they are there.  It's the kind of favour you can ask for only once in your life).  Most have a much worse time.  Someone I knew (who has since killed herself) once mentioned that her grandmother pulled her aside and told her she had to commit suicide to save the honour of her family.  I wish I were kidding.  Mission accomplished for granny.  Now they can erase her out of existence and try to forget that their family was ever stained in such a way.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any questions, including offensive ones (but expect snippy answers).  I tend to use direct and strong language but it isn't meant nastily.  I have just found that it's often needed in order to get the point across effectively.

Again, thanks to all the supporters.  Without you we would have no chance.

jas

Cross Product wrote:

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any questions, including offensive ones (but expect snippy answers).  I tend to use direct and strong language but it isn't meant nastily.  I have just found that it's often needed in order to get the point across effectively.

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

Cross Product wrote:

The fact that the last thread degenerated into open taunting should tell you all you need to know.

The fact that you reiterate this tells me that it will probably be difficult having a balanced dialogue with you.

Cross Product

jas wrote:

 

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

The fact that you reiterate this tells me that it will probably be difficult having a balanced dialogue with you.

 

Please phrase your response in the form of a question.  You didn't ask any.  Instead, you ignored everything I said and homed in on a couple of unimportant sentences.

Nonetheless: yes I can take strong language.  Seriously.  I give as good as I get.

I agree with your second sentence.  I don't think there's any reaching you, so if you wouldn't mind stepping out of the conversation so I can talk to the people who want to learn without wasting time and energy on you, that would just be precious.

tx bb

500_Apples

One thing's for sure, she's no dot product.

I for one appreciate you sharing your 3-dimensional views.

[For everyone else, I'm making a math joke].

Cross Product

:)  Yes, I'm a math nerd.

I'm normal to the plane, baby!

500_Apples

That's a good one, thanks !

Cross Product

No prob.  There's a lot more where that came from :D

For non-nerds, a cross product produces a vector perpendicular to the span of the matrix in the operator.  Actually, I guess that doesn't help much…

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hi Cross Product. Just a small technicality re your comment at post #10. babblers can't ask for certain babblers to refrain from posting in any particular thread. So, you can't ask or tell or suggest to jas or anyone to not post in this thread.

If a babbler has posted something counter to babble policy, mods can and will step in and may instruct said babbler(s) to no longer post in a particular thread, or even an entire forum such as the feminism forum, for example. This is not the case with jas.

I suggest that we try to continue with this thread in a positive way, and not focus on the failings of the past thread of the same name. And thanks to j.m. for your words at post #5.

Very funny, educational and trans-positive video here. I've posted it before but it's so wonderful and amazing I felt it might help to bring us a bit back on track.

Polly B Polly B's picture

Cross Product wrote:

No prob.  There's a lot more where that came from :D

For non-nerds, a cross product produces a vector perpendicular to the span of the matrix in the operator.  Actually, I guess that doesn't help much…

 

Nope.  Not even a little bit :)

Cross Product

Maysie: that's okay.  It was more rhetorical than anything else, I don't actually expect jas to follow through.

I don't want to be positive.  I want to let people know when they're wrong.  The whole reason I registered an account and posted in the first place was to express my unhappiness about the atrocious thread that was closed.  As well as all the ones that have gone to the graveyard before them.

It's not about happiness and joy, it's about pain and misery.  I'd love to talk about sunrises and kittens and fresh linen sheets, but that's not what this topic is about.  We are one of the remaining minorities for whom it is still considered socially acceptable to hector and jeer at in public.  It is also acceptable on a supposedly "progressive" forum to state outright the following (more or less in order):

- We are not special.  [Our unique medical and social issues are irrelevant]

- We identify as trans.  [We don't identify as trans, we are trans]

- Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means [How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.]

- Trans activists actively push people into transitioning  [This is a lie, repeated by more than one person]

- We are only "apparently" successful [Transsexuals are sad and pathetic]

- Trans youth are "confused" [That word comes up a lot, the Family Research Institute uses it all the time]

- We should not be accomodated "at the moment" [Due to rampant confusion]

- Gender identity is (partially) culturally based [IT IS NOT, any more than sexuality is]

- You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

- Feminists have already dealt with this, and that's the final word ["the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," pretty much]

- Surgery is PERMANENT!  And hormones are DANGEROUS!  [We know, thanks.  You don't need to protect us from our crazy little selves]

- We should be "tempered" at an early age [Through beatings, perhaps?  That's what my father did.  It failed but gave me some nice PTSD]

- We don't know who we are / false consciousness [YES WE DO, and we do as small children]

- "I can't imagine what you're going through, so I shall use Occam's Razor and assume you're lying"

- People in lab coats know more about us than we know about ourselves

- Our experiences are mere "opinion," whereas your opinions are facts

- Our experiences carry no weight against your introspection and that course you took ten years ago

- You have never seen things turn out well [Bet you think you can always spot one of us]

- We are "carved up" like a dinner roast [I assume you won't be getting carved up if you need bypass surgery]

- We are disordered  [We are broken, defective, crazy, unstable, dangerous]

- Trans is just the same as cutting  [I know because of my learnings]

- Medical care for us is not a "God-given right" [Something Tony Perkins would agree with, no doubt]

- Potato soup is more important than our lives  [Thanks for letting us know you care]

- Transitioning is just like buying a coffee at Starbucks, only it costs ten thousand times as much [CASH UP FRONT, no loan for you]

- We are a waste of taxpayers' valuable coin  [WTF?  Is this Free Republic?]

- Humane slaughter is to be supported [of us, I guess.  Time to fire the ovens!]

- SRS is self-mutilation, just like cutting [It is NOT.  "Mutilation" means that it is involuntary.  Any surgery entered into voluntarily that is correctly performed is NOT mutilation by definition]

- Acne is an appropriate analogy [if only our help came in tubes you could buy at the drugstore]

And that's just in that one thread!  And I've heard those non-arguments over and over and over and over again, and I'm so tired.  It's just so offensive, so insulting, so patronising, so derisive, so spiteful, so infantilising, and so ceaseless, that words fail me.  If you can't see how trans people might have been upset by that, I don't know what I can say.  The fact that G. Muffin can say these things and not be banned or even warned (and the thread locked right after so that nobody can refute anything), whereas I am warned on my second or third post for a very minor breach of etiquette, says a lot to me.

Nobody has actually asked me a real question, yet, other than punny math.  People are always talking about us, or at us, but almost never to us, and even more rarely stopping to listen.  If nobody wants to hear, if I'm just talking to a wall, I'll leave.  All you have to do is ask, and I'm out of here.

I'll understand.

Stargazer

Cross Product and Red Tory Tea Girl have both posted up their personal experiences. Laid themselves bare for us at Babble. Probably hoping that someone, somewhere actually cares what trans people go through and how they feel and educate our ignorant asses on the issues. See Cross Product's post above.

If this were the feminist forum, or the anti-racism or FN forum, no one would be debating the very basics of these issues. Yet here come two new people, who share their story only to be met with this:

As long as you don't then complain about direct and strong language in return.

This little nugget was given a pass here. A complete pass. Can you imagine if this were the feminist forum, or the AR forum and a white had said o a POC or FN the exact same thing? There would be some strong words.

Jas, I am not trying to single you out but I have a general question for people, why is it that both RTTG and now Cross Product have to be subjected to US defining the terms of discussion? Why are both RTTG and Cross Product immediately put on the defensive? Why is it ANY OF OUR BUSINESS to speculate and hurl our own, completely uneducated and biased opinions, at either of these posters?

Why would anyone, as opposed to listening, instead ask people to suck up any crap that gets flung their way because we just don't get it?

I call for zero tolerance for this type of behaviour. Keep your moral opinions to yourself. This is not your life to dissect and to question the motives of someone, and then call them "confused" etc.

Seriously people, can we get with the times here? This is embarrassing. The last thread was hostile, repulsive and no where near the level of progressive thought given to other issues.

Reminds me of almost all the AR topics started by POC or FN - we drown out their voices with bullshit. I would like to see that doesn't happen in this case as well.

Brilliant post BTW Cross Product. What I know of Trans issues I only know from reading books and articles written by trans people (and that isn't a whole lot). So I very much welcome your voice here. I hope that you stick around. Don't worry so much, you should see some of the arguments that happen in the AR and Feminist forum.

 

Hopefully the type of crap that was thrown at RTTG in her thread will not be thrown here too - anymore.

 

ennir

I appreciate your voice and would like it if you stayed around but I will understand if you decide not to, some of the comments that have been made are extemely offensive.

 

Stargazer

ennir, we cross posted. What you said +10

 

BTW, I had no idea Cross Product was some type of math thing. No wonder I didn't get it!

ennir

Stargazer, thank you for your post, I competely agree.

I would welcome a society that does not decide on the basis of the penis whether or not to define a child as male or female, in my view no infant should ever be subjected to that.  I would rather that these children be given the opportunity to identify as they chose to.

Cross Product, I loved math as a child, dreamt of becoming a mathematician and am quite disappointed that I am not getting the math jokes.  lol 

As for questions, what do you think should be done or not done when a child is born with Klinefelter syndrome?

Sineed

Quote:
Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means (How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.)

Quote:
The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "on the same side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry.

When I was studying chemistry, we used the terms, "cis," and "trans," to describe the configuration of various organic molecules.

Quote:
The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse.[3] Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later.[citation needed] According to Donna Lynn Matthews, the charter maintainer of the alt.support.crossdressing usenet group, the word was coined in 1995 by Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands.[4] In April 1996, Buijs said in a usenet posting, "As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered."

So if it's good enough for labelling molecules, it's good enough for labelling people.

Quote:
You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

Uh, no; you insist on labelling.  Nobody should be called what they do not want to be called.  If I object to "cis-gendered" because I think it's a silly-ass neologism as well as an objectifying label, I don't think I should be called that.

Stargazer

Great start Sineed! Really. *Applause*

 

Yes, that was sarcasm.

ennir

Sineed wrote:

Quote:
Intentionally misunderstanding what cisgendered means (How can this be so hard?  Cis is anyone who's not trans.)

Quote:
The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "on the same side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry.

When I was studying chemistry, we used the terms, "cis," and "trans," to describe the configuration of various organic molecules.

Quote:
The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse.[3] Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later.[citation needed] According to Donna Lynn Matthews, the charter maintainer of the alt.support.crossdressing usenet group, the word was coined in 1995 by Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands.[4] In April 1996, Buijs said in a usenet posting, "As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered."

So if it's good enough for labelling molecules, it's good enough for labelling people.

Quote:
You can label us, but we're not allowed to label you

Uh, no; you insist on labelling.  Nobody should be called what they do not want to be called.  If I object to "cis-gendered" because I think it's a silly-ass neologism as well as an objectifying label, I don't think I should be called that.

 

Wow, that is what you have to say?    LOL  Truly you are correct, it is ALL about you.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Okay if we can dial down the personal angles here and stick with the issues, that would be great. So back off the sarcasm towards Sineed please.

Sineed, objecting to being labelled from the side of the majority and the dominant position isn't at all the same as having the majority name and label the less powerful.

I'm moderating this thread a bit more closely in the hopes that this will not go the way of the many previous threads on trans issues.

Stargazer

Thank you Maysie! You truly do rock.

Cross Product

Sineed: we need some terminology to determine not only who is us, but who isn't us.  Of course I understand that argument from authority via a cut-n-paste Wikipedia entry is worth far more than anything I could ever possibly contribute, but this term has common currency among transpeople, and it's not going to change.  Please get over it.  What should we call you?  !trans?  ~trans?  Trans-prime?  That-Which-Is-Not-Us?  How about the Normals?  The Mundanes?  The Muggles?  Cissies?  If I'm feeling grim, how about the Hutus?  The Elil?  See, really cisgendered isn't looking so bad after all.  It is a neutral, technical term, and it has NOTHING to do with stuff you learned in undergrad chemistry.

If we're not allowed to have a term that describes you, then we cannot talk about ourselves either.  Which I suspect is the point.

Stargazer and ennir, thank you so much for your support!  If it weren't for you, I might have given up by now.  You guys rock.

The problem with math is that they don't bust out the good shit until second year university, so the memories people carry away are endless multiplication tables and fractions, mindless grind work that isn't really "math" in any real sense, but mere arithmetic.  They teach kids to be human calculators, when math is more a way of thinking than anything else.  No wonder people are phobic about it.

As to KS, the best thing to do when they're born is nothing at all.  We can have some developmental issues which are probably good to look out for.  I am extremely clumsy (my first two school report cards say "has problems with motor control"), and writing is difficult and painful for me, which is why I switched to the keyboard as soon as I could.  I used to type school papers on an old mechanical typewriter because it was a lot easier.  I'm allergic to a huge range of things; many KS people have autoimmune problems.  KS people are sometimes prone to out of control rages, something I used to have but learned to control and neutralize as a teenager.  This can make XXY forums pretty fractious places, which is why I tend to avoid them.

The most important thing is that if your child says "I think I should have been a girl/boy," regardless of any visible medical issue, please take them seriously and please listen to them.  You will potentially be saving them from a lifetime of grief, misery, shame and death.

I'm always amazed at the level of personal investment so many people seem to have in denying and removing our agency.  Do you realize how few of us there are?  But the fact is that we, by our mere existence and out of all proportion to our numbers, threaten a lot of peoples' basic assumptions about the world.  Some people can take these new concepts and integrate them, and so learn and grow.

For others, our existence is intolerable, and our scary shadow must be neutralized somehow.  People construct cozy narratives about us - that we're crazy, deranged, pathetic, deceivers, invaders - in order to avoid facing whatever it is about us that is threatening their worldview.  Once that schema is in place, there's almost no shifting it, because to do so would require facing the shadow again.  To those people, I ask that you look at that shadow and think about what you see.

It's really the same sort of process that occurs with gay-hating Christian organisations, only on a smaller scale.  That is why the arguments directed against us are so familiar and recognizable (at least to us).  How can I get through, without people getting huffy and defensive, without the shutters slamming closed?

Thanks very much.  I am really writing from the heart here, and this is very exhausting and draining.  I want to educate, I want people to understand, I want happy things, but being Sisyphus grinds you down.

And now, I am off to get very, very, very high.

Maysie Maysie's picture

This is so incredibly powerful and applies to issues and social realities far beyond this conversation:

Cross Product wrote:
 I'm always amazed at the level of personal investment so many people seem to have in denying and removing our agency.  Do you realize how few of us there are?  But the fact is that we, by our mere existence and out of all proportion to our numbers, threaten a lot of peoples' basic assumptions about the world.  Some people can take these new concepts and integrate them, and so learn and grow.

jas

Cross Product wrote:

Please get over it.  What should we call you?  !trans?  ~trans?  Trans-prime?  That-Which-Is-Not-Us?  How about the Normals?  The Mundanes?  The Muggles?  Cissies?  If I'm feeling grim, how about the Hutus?  The Elil?

Um, how about non-trans? Is the extra syllable that much of an inconvenience?

My point in the last thread was that assuming that everyone who does not identify as trans is "cis" is incorrect. How can you possibly know who is cis or not, by your definition (being those who are comfortable with their assigned gender). You don't know that and it's arrogant and misleading to label a broad swath of people as such. "Non-trans" would cover all those people who may not identify as trans but who don't identify as cis. Is that all right with you?

jas

Stargazer wrote:

This little nugget was given a pass here. A complete pass. Can you imagine if this were the feminist forum, or the AR forum and a white had said o a POC or FN the exact same thing? There would be some strong words.

Jas, I am not trying to single you out but I have a general question for people, why is it that both RTTG and now Cross Product have to be subjected to US defining the terms of discussion? Why are both RTTG and Cross Product immediately put on the defensive?

They both came in here on the defensive. They both came in here presumably to initiate some discussion, although I'm still not quite sure on what.

Can you imagine if a feminist came into the feminism forum with some kind of diatribe, and then said something along the lines of "ask questions, but expect snippy answers...I tend to use strong language...I find it's needed to get my point across," basically asking for protected status, but retaining the right to be bitchy to those who respond. Is that a really great way to engage others?

Ghislaine

Cross Product, thank you for being here and sharing your story and your views. I hope you stick around. 

I wanted to explore the thread title further, as the medical profession and society clearly still consider Klinefelter's to be a disorder. 

I am expecting and it is one of the things that the doctor called "a genetic disorder" and that can be tested for prenatally. I had of it before in university, but had never really considered it much up until that point. I turned down the genetic testing (it also tests for Down's Syndrome, etc.), as I had already made the choice not to terminate. About 50% of fetuses are terminated if Klinefelter's is detected prenatally versus 90+% for Down Syndrome, so clearly the attitude still exists that this is a disorder but not as many people who view a disability as a disorder. The doctor spoke of this as something negative from the get go however and likened it to a disability. 

I was wondering if you have encountered doctors who have been more progressive in speaking about your gender in a way that does not begin with the "disordered" assumption? I was also curious about whether you think this testing should be okay or what in your mind can be done on a societal level to reassure prospective parents about having a child with Klinefelter's? 

Sineed

Quote:
The problem with math is that they don't bust out the good shit until second year university, so the memories people carry away are endless multiplication tables and fractions, mindless grind work that isn't really "math" in any real sense, but mere arithmetic.  They teach kids to be human calculators, when math is more a way of thinking than anything else.  No wonder people are phobic about it.

That's a problem with science in general, IMV; you have to memorize a whole lot of boring stuff before you get to the good stuff.

Re the whole cis-trans thing: I knew these as chemistry terms long before they were being applied to people.  But like jas says, there are people who identify on a continuum of gender identity and this labelling becomes inaccurate, because people are not molecules.

Quote:
 It is a neutral, technical term, and it has NOTHING to do with stuff you learned in undergrad chemistry.

I suspect it came out of a chemistry textbook somebody on a usenet group picked up sometime in the early '90s.  If it ends up in the OED, jas and I (and some other people on babble) will just have to get used to it.  But in the meantime, I think it's useful to have a conversation about labelling, who gets to do it, and what uses it has.  Maysie makes a point about labelling from the perspective of a dominant group, and that's a point; however, if the dominant group (and I'm not all that dominant :) objects to the label, it doesn't help the dialogue move forwards with the oppressed group.  It's pointlessly divisive (and you want to multiply your support, not divide would-be allies).

Stargazer

Oh great, here we go again. Do you consider yourself an ally when all you've done is harp on about yourself? Same with Jas - again we see the obvious frustration of Cross Product _ ONCE AGAIN - having to defend themselves.

 

And no, Cross Product did not start out being defensive, and if that occurred no fucking wonder, given the base level of discourse on this topic from so-called allies.

 

Fuck. Just stop already. Check your privilege at the door. Listen and stop telling others they have no right to say what the think and feel.

 

Stargazer

hey CP - there is a handy Igorne tool here for IE and Firefox if you are so inclined. It works great.

Cross Product

jas wrote:

They both came in here on the defensive. They both came in here presumably to initiate some discussion, although I'm still not quite sure on what.

And that is why you fail.  You don't listen, or at least you don't hear.  Even now, you primarily talk about me, rather than to me.

jas wrote:

Can you imagine if a feminist came into the feminism forum with some kind of diatribe, and then said something along the lines of "ask questions, but expect snippy answers...I tend to use strong language...I find it's needed to get my point across," basically asking for protected status, but retaining the right to be bitchy to those who respond. Is that a really great way to engage others?

I am not personally asking for any protected status of any kind.  I can take care of myself and don't need any protection.  Remember the business about the blue-blood wealthy old money family.  I could fight a court battle knowing that there are millions of dollars standing behind me.  I have dual nationality, meaning I can up pegs and move any time I want.

It's not for me that I'm writing this.  It's for all the children, a few of those I have known personally.  It's for the people with no money, no power who get kicked out of their houses at 15, who are dropped off downtown by their mothers and told "good luck faggot" before roaring away.  It's for those that have to resort to survival sex because nobody, nobody will hire them.  It's for those who eventually take their grandmothers' advice and kill themselves to save their family from shame.  It's for the people who have their houses vandalized on a nightly basis by the local hooligans that the police do not and will never control.  It's for the people who have their skulls caved in with fire extinguishers by someone who then told the police "I think I killed it," just because they so desperately wanted to feel what it was like to be loved.

jas, the fact that you are taking this so very, very personally and insist unceasingly trying to make it all about you, tells me more about you that perhaps you intended.  I can't ask you to leave, so instead I will no longer be answering anything you say.  Good bye.

When something happens in downtown Eastside, nothing happens.  It's just another tranny dead.

Dead

Dead

jas

Cross Product wrote:

jas, the fact that you are taking this so very, very personally and insist unceasingly trying to make it all about you, tells me more about you that perhaps you intended.

??  This is when histrionics get in the way of dialogue.

Quote:
I can't ask you to leave, so instead I will no longer be answering anything you say.  Good bye.

Okay, then. Bye.

Stargazer

Maysie, please help...

Cross Product

Am I really crazy?  Am I really the one in the wrong here?  Is jas' e-psychiatry accurate?  Obviously I know jas' and Stargazer's answers.  It would be nice if others could chime in with their opinion.

I'm not going to talk to jas, but I will happily talk about hir.

jas

Stargazer, Cross Product is a big grown-up. She is a blue-blood from a wealthy, old-money family and can fight court battles knowing that there are millions of dollars standing behind her. She has dual nationality, meaning she can up pegs and move any time she wants.

She said she can take whatever she dishes out.

Cross Product

Stargazer wrote:

hey CP - there is a handy Igorne tool here for IE and Firefox if you are so inclined. It works great.

Hi, (I assume you meant ignore :) thanks for the tip, I didn't know that.  It's like the old USENET killfile days!

Maysie Maysie's picture

Folks we need to keep the tenor and dialogue here respectful. Cross Product has shared a great deal of personal information. Anyone who is cis-gendered or non-trans, or a Muggle, needs to really watch their privilege here. 

What is theory and ideas for one person, is lived reality, pain and trauma for another. How many gajillion times have I said this to white folks about issues of race and racism? Can we all please try to make the connections? Is that at all possible?

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Sineed wrote:

 

[...] I think it's useful to have a conversation about labelling, who gets to do it, and what uses it has.  Maysie makes a point about labelling from the perspective of a dominant group, and that's a point; however, if the dominant group (and I'm not all that dominant :) objects to the label, it doesn't help the dialogue move forwards with the oppressed group.  It's pointlessly divisive (and you want to multiply your support, not divide would-be allies).

Only if the oppressed group is willing to always be a supplicant rather than an equal. Since there is no derogatory connotation to the "cis" modifier, since it implies no handicap, "moral shortcoming", or failure on the part of those of us so gendered -- since it is not being used in a way that can, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered a pejorative -- I fail to see how it can be considered divisive.

It appears, to me, that objections to it are being raised in defence of the privilege of the dominant to control the discussion. It raises the spectre of the dominant group defending itself as "normal" and those outside the dominant group as "abnormal" -- and I don't think one has to go very far out on a limb to see the pejorative connotations of "abnormal" as a label.

RosaL

Maysie wrote:

What is theory and ideas for one person, is lived reality, pain and trauma for another. 

I agree with that actually. Or at least partially. Gender identity can be a pretty painful issue for a lot of non-trans (muggle) women, too. But TransProduct has described a painful history. We need to be careful of each others' wounds and tender spots and try not to hurt each other. But we also need to be able to disagree with each other if we're going to have a useful discussion. It should be possible to do both!

jas

I don't doubt it's the truth. I don't doubt that your blood is actually, physically, blue. I don't doubt that this information is absolutely necessary and entirely relevant to the issues you are apparently trying to discuss here. Please, carry on.

RosaL

bagkitty wrote:

It appears, to me, that objections to it are being raised in defence of the privilege of the dominant to control the discussion. It raises the spectre of the dominant group defending itself as "normal" and those outside the dominant group as "abnormal" -- and I don't think one has to go very far out on a limb to see the pejorative connotations of "abnormal" as a label.

I realize it raises that specter for you but that doesn't mean that's what's going on. I have reservations about "cis", too - not the label, but the definition. And it's not because I think I'm normal. (Quite the reverse.) 

 

Cross Product

Cross Product is indeed all that.  It's not a boast or brag, it's simply the truth.  She doesn't actually have any money (you don't get to have that kind of money by giving it away to relatives), so instead she has a successful professional / academic career. She works in a university.  Her younger sister is an up-and-coming scientist whom Cross Product was delighted to see reported about in the Globe and Mail and Quirks and Quarks, and Slashdot, and New Scientist, and the Guardian, whose Ph.D paper was published in Nature.  Her father is a successful, retired marine biology professor.  Her uncle is a Eurocrat who just spent €3.2 million on renovating his house in Brussels.  Her great uncle on her mother's side was a famous sculptor who has an entire room dedicated to his work at the AGO, as well as the sculptures in front of Toronto City Hall.  One of Cross Product's more obscure cousin-of-an-aunt type relatives is married to some sort of German nobility and lives the drive-the-Ferrari-for-a-weekend-in-Monaco sort of lifestyle and has the most spectacular drug problems.

On top of that, Cross Product as a teenager once illustrated a paper for Sarah McLachlan's father.

All these things are entirely true, and if someone wants to PM me I'll tell them names and they can phone them up and verify all this.

[Edit for grammar fail]

Sineed

Sineed comes from poor white trash.  Three of her four grandparents were alcoholics.  One of her uncles is bipolar and spent five years in prison for armed robbery.  Sineed currently wastes too much time getting into pissing contests on the internet.

 

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

RosaL wrote:

bagkitty wrote:

It appears, to me, that objections to it are being raised in defence of the privilege of the dominant to control the discussion. It raises the spectre of the dominant group defending itself as "normal" and those outside the dominant group as "abnormal" -- and I don't think one has to go very far out on a limb to see the pejorative connotations of "abnormal" as a label.

I realize it raises that specter for you but that doesn't mean that's what's going on. I have reservations about "cis", too - not the label, but the definition. And it's not because I think I'm normal. (Quite the reverse.) 

 

I would be more than happy if you would provide an alternative explanation. I have been trying to follow the trans threads over the past several months and am somewhat surprised at the vehemence with which the non-trans have been expressing themselves. [Of course I bring along my own baggage and am drawing analogies in my head about the arguments against the appropriation of the word "gay" by my nearest and dearest...] I guess (and I am trying not to be sarcastic) I need a 101 from those who are opposed to the "cis" label as to the reasons for their opposition. If someone has clearly spelled it out and I missed the point, could you link to the thread?

Cross Product

Cross Product doesn't look down on anyone for their or their parents' circumstances.  Cross Product admits that she has been successfully baited by jas' (once again) taking a single paragraph and making it the central part of the story.  Cross Product does not get into pissing contests.

Cross product is a leftist in spite of her blue copper-based blood, because she has empathy and a conscience, and a very strong sense of justice.  Cross Product's only route, should she ever give up on the Left's ever being able to improve itself, would be epistemeological nihilism and a terminal case of misanthropy.  Beyond that, Cross Product cannot see.  Always in motion is the future.

Okay, back to first person, this is getting childish.

Stargazer

Great idea, and hopefully this thread will not be about those who object to the term, but more about what it means to be trans-gendered because frankly, I find the pile ups on trans people disgusting, unwarranted and seriously deeply screwed.Why? Because for the life of me I cannot figure out exactly why they are so freaked out and so judgmental. I would expect this crap from the right, but not from those on the left.

 

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