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Who's the greatest - Gretzky, "The Kid" or Hayley Wickenheiser?
Sun, 2010-03-07 21:07
#1
Who's the greatest - Gretzky, "The Kid" or Hayley Wickenheiser?
Sat, 2010-03-06 14:53
#2
Sat, 2010-03-06 14:56
#3
Golden goal begets special tribute
N.B. couple decides to name BABY GIRL after Sidney Crosby 
Sat, 2010-03-06 22:19
#4
It's Apples & Oranges-Wickenheiser plays on a team that about major junior level, they're slow can't shoot hard and No Hitting.
Gretzky was good but his personality tripped him up-it's not for nothing he was called the Grate One.
Crosby remains to be seen, last his NHL team was here in Vancouver he was nowhere to be seen on the ice a lot of people paid a lot of money and were quite disappointed.
The same thing happened with Ovechkin/his NHL crew-locals call it The Roxy Effect after a famous old nightclub.
Sun, 2010-03-07 00:27
#5
Unfortunately for the Stars goalie Kari Lehtonen. I think he saw a lot of "The Kid" today.
Crosby scores twice in Pens' 6-3 win over Stars
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ggej-5aY3-oZfGjTDcjXLG...
Sun, 2010-03-07 00:40
#6
It's Apples & Oranges-Wickenheiser plays on a team that about major junior level, they're slow can't shoot hard and No Hitting.
Major Junior still has some fast skating, hard shooting players. Mostly they're still a bit raw, and lack professional level depth. It's still Gretzky by a mile though; Crosby hasn't done near enough to warrant comparisons yet and Ovechkin may turn out to be the best player of this generation.
Sun, 2010-03-07 00:51
#7
Bah; Gordie Howe, not to mention Eddie Shore, could have eaten Gretzky for breakfast.
Bobby Orr was probably better than the lot of them.
Sun, 2010-03-07 01:09
#8
I don't know, Gretzky was the best pure goal machine that ever lived, who cares if he was a lightweight who rarely checked? Noone could even hit him square on till he slowed down.
Besides, he could always hide behind Semenko if old Eddie Shore ever got too hungry. :)
Sun, 2010-03-07 01:15
#9
Sun, 2010-03-07 01:20
#10
The Rocket? Second or third best fwd, maybe. IMO Raymond Bourque may actually have been the best all around D-man in history, but if Orr's knees were better all bets are off.
(And while we're at it, Patrick Roy was *not* the best G-man in history, despite what some say now; he wasn't even the best Canadien Or best of his time -Hasek was. Just had to get that off my chest)
Sun, 2010-03-07 08:31
#11
I don't think the numbers can lie, but they have to be interpreted because of rule changes and such over the years. That being said, I don't know how anyone can't come away thinking Gretzky has been the best so far.
I think it's safe to say that Haley Wickenheiser dominates her league the way Gretzky did his.
Bobby Orr was great, and there's no doubt he dominated his time in the same way Gretzky did his. And I think Orr has left a different legacy. I think it was Orr's exploits in Boston that grew the game in terms of player developement in the States like no other event. It's unclear yet if Gretzky is leaving or has left such a legacy. He's trying. It might be said that Haley Wickenheiser grew women's hockey into the sport it is today, perhaps.
I can't say much about Eddie Shore's playing days. His stats don't indicate a superstar, though they are not bad for a deffenseman of his era. Mostly, he's remembered for being hockey's "Ty Cobb" but his legacies are probably unintentional-- his ownership style being cited as the progenitor of the NHLPA. At any rate, his influence of the game extended into the 1970's.
Eddie Shore, wiki:
Sun, 2010-03-07 13:35
#12
You have to go with Gretz, Crosby is great but has competition, you have to look at era vs era with these things, If all is equal I would personally prefer a Gordie Howe to start my team as he had more in his tool box than any of them, if Lindros had a brain he could have been right there, growing up I loved Bernie Parent in net and felt he was twice the goalie Dryden was for the fact that Dryden's defence stopped over half the shot's for him.
Sun, 2010-03-07 13:50
#13
Thanks T_P
I think what Canadian women have done in hockey in a relatively short period of time is nothing short of amazin'.
Vladislav Tretiak wins hands-down for goalie.
And let's not forget Boom Boom who played in the Rocket's shadow. Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Guy Lafleur, or the "Roadrunner" Yvan Cournoyer. You'd never guess I grew up in Quebec, eh! 
Sun, 2010-03-07 13:50
#14
I think for goaltending, the save percentage is the best statistic to go by. Not perfect, mind you, but it's perhaps the best. Looking at Brodeur vs. Sawchuck, we see very similar stats. But you could say that Brodeur had to face more years with the curved stick, and perhaps more skilled players. But he faced it with twice the padding that Sawchuck did. Maybe in that case, it all evens out. They have strikingly even stats. Oh, and Broduer has the adavantage of better sports medicine, and less psychotic ownership.
It's hard to compare.
Then there's intangebles. Like finding a way to win. I didn't think Crosby was that kind of player in Jr., or in his rookie season. But, it seems he has that, where maybe players like Orr or even Howe didn't. I think the Rocket was that kind of player and Bobby Clark, or Doug Gilmour, and Darryl Sitler, to name a few. Things that don't acctually show up on a career stats list, and are infinately arguable.
Are we about to embark upon an "all time" hockey All Star Team?
Sun, 2010-03-07 13:58
#15
That's a great idea.
Let's not forget this fella:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?typ...
Sun, 2010-03-07 14:05
#16
It's hard to compare. You'll note that Karlamov-- or Tetriak for that matter, ever played a grinding 75 or 80 game schedule year in, year out, where a player might pace himself, have the rest of the league learn his weaknesses, etc.
Sun, 2010-03-07 14:13
#17
From his Hall of Fame biography. Gotta love the brilliant cdn hockey scouts.
In the minds of hockey fans around the world, the name Vladislav Tretiak is so closely linked with goaltending excellence that it's hard to imagine that before 1972, the Soviet superstar was almost completely unknown to the North American sporting public. But that's pretty much the way it happened. Canadian hockey scouts had dismissed him as a weak link in the Soviet defense prior to the Canada-USSR series in 1972, calling him inconsistent, with a weak glove hand that could be exploited almost at will. And so coaches and fans hardly paid any attention to him in the pre-series buildup. By the time the Summit Series was over, though, Tretiak was no longer a mystery to NHL fans, who saw him turn away Canada's top goal-scoring stars time and again for eight frustrating, nail-biting games.
Tretiak's stellar performance in the 1972 showdown - as a mere 20-year-old - was only the beginning of his amazing international play. Behind his unprecedented 1.78 goals-against average in 98 international games, the Soviets won Olympic gold medals in 1972, 1976 and 1984. They also captured 10 World Championships and nine European titles and remained virtually undefeated for the better part of a decade in IIHF tournament play.
In addition to shining in international championship play, Tretiak also habitually inspired himself to play his very best during exhibition games against NHL teams. In a game against the Montreal Canadiens on New Year's Eve, 1975 - one that many hockey fans still consider the greatest goaltending performance of all time - Tretiak held the Habs to a 3-3 tie despite being widely outshot, 38-13. He was the MVP of the 1981 Canada Cup, leading the vaunted USSR to their first victory, and the following year turned in another standout series of games on the Soviet All-Stars tour of North America, the highlight of which was his 5-0 shutout of those same Canadiens in the Forum.
Sun, 2010-03-07 16:15
#18
Carefull, one of those brilliant scouts was Jacques Plante. We have to remember that part of the Soviet strategy was to lull Canada in a false sense of security. They let us see what we wanted to see. We might blame Plante and the rest for not reading Sun Tzu.
I think Tretiak was deffinately the best goaltender to never play in the NHL, and it's a tragedy that he never got to play. I suspect he'd have been right up there with Sawchuck or Brodeur, or any of the best you'd care to mention.
Sun, 2010-03-07 16:51
#19
It was also a shame he and the rest of the Soviets played second rate hockey teams for most of their existance.
Sun, 2010-03-07 20:14
#20
It's Bobby Orr hands down. He had the great intangible and changed the game of hockey in ways others have not.
Gretzky is responsible for popularizing the wrap-around and a few other now common place moves, but it is still Orr in my books
Crosby will be a great player, maybe even legendary, but he won't be on the top perch of Olympus with the likes of Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Richard or Blake
I am also sick to death of all these stupid comments about women's hockey. I watch a lot of OHL hockey too and maybe, maybe you could have compared the women's game to it 10 years ago, but these days elite level women's hockey is way higher skilled than Junior hokey. And even that comparision doesn't work because they are different games.
Sun, 2010-03-07 21:24
#21
Rocket Richard was on eight Stanley Cup winning teams and probably one of the most important players on each of them. I'd have to say Maurice Richard was the greatest player of his era and Gretzky the greatest of his time.
Wickenheiser is the greatest woman ever to play the game by far.
Crosby is a great player already with one Stanley Cup and one gold medal to his credit at what age, 22? That's really something in this kind of hockey with league parity and spread out over 30 teams.
Sun, 2010-03-07 22:17
#22
Catchfire
It's Apples & Oranges-Wickenheiser plays on a team that about major junior level, they're slow can't shoot hard and No Hitting.
I think that's an unfair characterization of the men who play in the Swedish Hockey League I.
Sun, 2010-03-07 23:33
#23
“At some point there’s got to be a clear indication from the league because we’ve seen this so many times now,” Penguins captain [url=http://sidneycrosbyhockey.info/2010/03/sid-comments-on-the-cooke-hit-on-... Crosby said.[/url] “You don’t like to see anyone, their own teammate or an opposing player, lay on the ice like that. That was scary.”
Savvy is too good a hockey player to be taking shoulders to the head like the one he took from Matt Cooke tonight. No penalty on the play, and one of the NHL's finest hockey players goes off the ice on a stretcher.
Mon, 2010-03-08 00:05
#24
I haven't seen enough of Wickenheiser to compare her dominance to the men. She's obviously the greatest women's player ever, but Team Canada doesn't really have much opposition in international play.
Sid Crosby does lead the league in goals, but doesn't totally blow the opposition away when it comes of offense. I don't even think he's the most dominant player in the NHL today, that title - narrowly - belongs to Ovechkin. He does however, possess leadership skill comparable to Yzerman or Messier. I think he'll go down in history being compared with those two (not a bad comparison)
The two untouchables are Gretzky and Orr.
Gretzky didn't just lead the league in scoring, he led the league in scoring by 70 to 80 points, and the guy in second was often whoever happened to be on the ice at the same time. Did he have a physical defensive presence? Hell no. But he and his team was so overwhelming on offense that they didn't really need much D.
Orr meanwhile, won scoring and points races as a defenseman, and possessed and even better plus/minus than Gretzky (though I think it could be argued he was playing on a better team). One thing he has over The Great One is that he was generally a little better in the plus/minus department - but I'd argue he was playing with a better team.
Mon, 2010-03-08 01:33
#25
Ovechkin's Olympic moment was the hit on Jagr. And then he fizzled. The whole Russian team fizzled. Strange.
Crosby scored the most important goal of the Olympics against who I think was the best goaltender in the tournament, Ryan Miller. And what a slick play it was from Iginla to Crosby.
Gretzky was a great hockey player in the 1980's, a time when a few teams were loaded with talent and unrestricted by salary caps. The Great One played on a team with four other prolific goal scorers, something Sid the Kid and Ovechkin will probably never experience during their careers. Gretzky never won a Stanley Cup after Edmonton. The closest he came was the 1993 Cup finals against Maurice Richard's old team that barely made the playoffs that year. And the old Montreal Forum ghosts helpedhockey's winningest team hoist the Cup one more time.
Fri, 2010-03-12 00:56
#26
I am also sick to death of all these stupid comments about women's hockey. I watch a lot of OHL hockey too and maybe, maybe you could have compared the women's game to it 10 years ago, but these days elite level women's hockey is way higher skilled than Junior hokey. And even that comparision doesn't work because they are different games.
I like to watch women's hockey too. But let's not equate it with major junior. Really. The Olympic team played midget AAA teams as a warm up to the Olympics and won most of the games, but not by huge margins. That's the best collection of female talent we have against run of the mill midget AAA teams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Hockey_Canada_national_women's_team
They aren't at that high a skill level. I don't think we have to blow smoke up their behinds to appreciate the game that the women play. It's not nearly the same skill
as major junior.
Fri, 2010-03-12 01:21
#27
Funny, I've been seeing alot of that online lately, must be infectious... Some female hockey players have succesfully played minor pro (Like Mannon Rheaume and Hayley Wickenheiser in Finland) and the "midget AAA" teams youre referring to are often teams like Minnesota's Warroad Warriors, where high school hockey is somewhere between midget and junior up here. Different tradition.
Nowhere near NHL calibre yet, and lacking the size and strength to play full contact against grown men, but I've seen a lot of advance in women's hockey from their first Olympic appearence --at least in North America where they can get at least a little attention, funding and ice time. Women's hockey in Europe is lagging even further because they apparently can't get the good old boys to take their programs at all seriously.
Fri, 2010-03-12 01:56
#28
I watched a bunch of women's hockey @ the Olympics and to my mind the skating and passing were decent but the shooting poor overall.
Who was that old NHL guy-not a fringe player but never a star-who was famous for working on his shot in the off season-he would use a piece of plywood and slam pucks into a local brick wall for a few hours a day.
His heavy accurate shot helped him earn a decent living as a journeyman player-every female player I saw needed to work on her shooting like he did.
Fri, 2010-03-12 02:55
#29
Back the original question, I think I agree with Tommy now on I whether asking who's the greatest of all time is even really meaningful. Especially when comparing players from different eras. Eg: was Howie Morenz really better than Fred "Cyclone" Taylor and was Taylor really better than "one eye" Frank McGee, who scored fourteen goals in one stanley cup game!!! Against some shmoes who dog-sledded halfway down from the Yukon. (and according to history I read, were denied the use of their one star player and an extra days rest by their sporting hosts in Ottawa)
Those first generations played a very different game, not near as evolved for sure, but to have to stay on ice the whole game on an outdoor rink with minimal pads and rules would have required certain skills and toughness that modern tough guys like, say, Eddie Shore (were going Waay back here) would have trouble emulating.
Even stars in same era like Howe versus Richard is tough to answer. Howe played longer at higher level than anyone (sorry Chris) and won scoring championships that Richard never did (suspended the one year he led, sparking the great Forum riot) but the Rocket did hit fifty goals which Howe never did --when alot of NHLers had gone off to war. Both led their teams to cups but Richard won more, but then Montreal probably had the best collection of talent in history, his last few years, while the Wings went into decline after dumping Sawchuk and union organizor (unsuccesful) Ted Lindsay. They were both considered fairly tough but Richard also scored big OT winners which Howe never did, so maybe better clutch player. Gord OTOH did score a couple OT winners for the team he led to the WHA championship -over the age of 46, age when even the old war horse Richard had retired. Both suffered career threatening injuries early but recovered to play their best hockey years after. So who was greater really?
I couldn't say except that varying circumstances make a difference even for the very best, apparently. (my little socialist message for the day) And sports fans will keep arguing over who was/is the greatest of all time. (favouring the heros of their own day no doubt --my cynical message for the day)
Fri, 2010-03-12 03:51
#30
Funny, I've been seeing alot of that online lately, must be infectious... Some female hockey players have succesfully played minor pro (Like Mannon Rheaume and Hayley Wickenheiser in Finland) and the "midget AAA" teams youre referring to are often teams like Minnesota's Warroad Warriors, where high school hockey is somewhere between midget and junior up here. Different tradition.
The women's game has come a long way, and I enjoy watching, besides the Canadian gals beating the U.S, the Finland team played a spirited game for the bronze, but make no mistake, both Rheaume and Wickenheiser wher part of publicity stunts, hardly successfull transitions from Midget Rep.
Fri, 2010-03-12 04:57
#31
Hi Ranger, just came back for one last look. Rheame's NHL exhibition was a publicity stunt no doubt, but read that she did play a year or two in the minors along with a top American goalie -can't remember her name. ECHL I think, so only third level pro, but still better than major junior on average. (I catch Victoria's SalmonKings at times, not bad hockey for the buck)
Saw I was wrong about them playing Warroad (considered one of the best US HS teams, where its biggest) this year so must have been earlier, but also noticed some of the "midget" opponents listed are actually Junior A level, like the Calgary Canucks and Royals. Even if they didn't play full contact they're still not bad results given the size difference and advantages in training etc. Doubt the boys took it easy either; my day we'd never live down being beaten at sports by "the girls" on any level. <8) So some progress is being made, yup.
ETA: I still say Gretzky was best at where it counts most -scoring. Higher scoring era but finished way ahead of all the other high scoring stars of the time -won scoring races by almost a point a game for years! So I take back most my last post too, Gretzky still rules...
Fri, 2010-03-12 06:34
#32
re women's hockey:
I don't follow women's hockey much, but I think it may be like women's tennis or basketball vs men's , in that eventually it becomes a different version of the sport; people I know who follow tennis say men's power has wrecked some of the more subtle aspects of the sport, and women play a more classic game;
if they develop a fast, good passing version of hockey with no head shots, btw, maybe it will develop a niche as a mass sport....
re men's hockey stars:
never never forget the Big Guy:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/11119/index.htm
- What could he have accomplished without his injury/sickness history ???
re another favourite hockey star,
although not at Gretzky/Orr level, see the comment below re Big M that I made at a sports site where some clowns were saying that ex-Jay 2B Robbie Alomar was the "greatest athlete ever " in Toronto pro sports:
yes, Alomar = excellent! BUT, best pro athlete in T.O. history?
hang on:
What about Frank Mahovlich, the Big M?
In 1957-58, he joined the Leafs, won rookie of the year (over Bobby Hull); leading scorer on 3 consecutive Stanley Cup winners (1962-63-64), first "million-dollar"" player in Canadian sports after Blackhawks' offer; scored 533 season and 626 total goals (season and playoffs), nine All-Star teams, and a member of six Cup-winning teams - four with Toronto and two with Montreal; in 1971, tied record for playoff scoring; Team Canada 1972 Summit Series, & multiple int'l hockey series.
Never the league MVP, but always near the top, key to 5-6 championship teams, great everywhere he played (even playing beside superstars Howe, Beliveau, Esposito):
-- How is that not the equal of Alomar's status in Toronto sports and MLB ?
Fri, 2010-03-12 19:54
#33
Good point about Lemieux, although differences, if all where equal, their talked about in the same breath, I thought Bobby Hull was the first "million dollar man"?, the Big M was great to watch growing up same as brother Peter, I had a huge poster of the Big M on my wall growing up, would love to meet that guy one day. As far as Alomar? he should feel priveleged to be part of this conversation.
Fri, 2010-03-12 21:29
#34
Ya, I remember alot of fans back then thought the big M was a better all-around player than Hull was, at least when he was on his game. Always knew something was going to happen when he started powering down the wing. And how about Stan Mikita or Jean Beliveau or Guy Lafleur when they were in their prime? Worth at least honorable mentions.
Fri, 2010-03-12 21:37
#35
Ahhh the Flower! I watched almost every Saturday night it seemed back in the day, (cuz Dad said so) Lafleur, Shutt, Robinson,Savard? I could keep going....., to me these guys where like super heros, the only time I saw Lafleur live was when he was a Nordique playing the Canucks, he was on a line with Sakic, I felt very fortunate to be there.
Fri, 2010-03-12 21:50
#36
Back the original question, I think I agree with Tommy now on I whether asking who's the greatest of all time is even really meaningful. Especially when comparing players from different eras. Eg: was Howie Morenz really better than Fred "Cyclone" Taylor and was Taylor really better than "one eye" Frank McGee, who scored fourteen goals in one stanley cup game!!!
I remember listening to Gordon Sinclair on Front Page Challenge give the answer as to who the best hockey player ever was. He said he'd seen both Howie Morenz and Gretzky play, but it had to have been early in Gretzky's NHL career. Sinclair described how Morenz was similar to Gretzky in that he once saw Morenz score while skating backwards with puck toward the net. He had high regard for the Stratford Streak, a linemate of my grandfather's way back in the 20's.
Fri, 2010-03-12 21:54
#37
Back the original question, I think I agree with Tommy now on I whether asking who's the greatest of all time is even really meaningful. Especially when comparing players from different eras. Eg: was Howie Morenz really better than Fred "Cyclone" Taylor and was Taylor really better than "one eye" Frank McGee, who scored fourteen goals in one stanley cup game!!!
I remember listening to Gordon Sinclair on Front Page Challenge give the answer as to who the best hockey player ever was. He said he'd seen both Howie Morenz and Gretzky play, but it had to have been early in Gretzky's NHL career. Sinclair described how Morenz was similar to Gretzky in that he once saw Morenz score while skating backwards with puck toward the net. He had high regard for the Stratford Streak, a linemate of my grandfather's way back in the 20's.
You grand-dad was a linemate of the great Howie Morenz?? So what else aren't you telling us Fidel?
Fri, 2010-03-12 21:57
#38
You were fortunate to see him live, even then. 8-) Remember that series winning goal he scored against Boston in '79, when Don Cherry left too many men on the ice? You just Knew he was going to score when he got the puck. His kind of brilliance just can't be taught, even to the naturally athletic, it's true. Too bad injuries shortened his career too.
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:02
#39
Must have if it was the bigs. C'mon give us a hint, was he the guy known for skating down the frozen Rideau decades later?
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:03
#40
You grand-dad was a linemate of the great Howie Morenz?? So what else aren't you telling us Fidel?
He played in front of Vezina too? He died when I was very young. I met him when he was an old man. Couldn't picture him as a hockey player then, but he had a lot of trophies and photos and stuff. My dad used to tell me about watching him play at the Forum and in Boston the odd time.
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:15
#41
Well that IS news. Closest I ever got to sports celebrity was playing against a future hall of famer at HS floor hockey. Funny cause I didn't think that much of him then, only remembered cause I stopped one of his shots with my forehead. Best save I made all game. =:)
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:22
#42
Of course, the players today are bigger, stronger and faster today than in the old days. I think Gretzky must rank at the very top of best all-time. I remember listening to one of the Russian hockey coaches commenting in English back in the 80's. He said Russia had the equivalent of five Gretzkys in his country. I do think the Russians and Czechs etc influenced our game since the 1970s. Our pro hockey players are lot more serious about physical condioning in-season and in the off season today. Tudor Bompa came to the west and is an exercise science professor at York University. Periodized workouts are all the rage among amateur and professional athletes in just about every sport. I've been following periodized weight training methods for a few years, and I think it's very good.
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:34
#43
Yup. European influence made our game better in a lot of aspects, one of the least recognised is how much more conditioning and dry land training they get. That was mostly Tarasov I think. Old days they didn't bother getting into shape till training camp. Sometimes think they overdo it now, though, too many competitive games too early in their development. Players are bigger and stronger, and more technically profficient all around, but I think some of the creativity, play making and puck handling skills have declined somewhat. Too many cheap shots now too, which probably don't encourage that side of it either.
Fri, 2010-03-12 22:42
#44
Yes, I think it must have been Tarasov who was speaking then. He was boastful and didn't want to give too much credit to Gretzky then. I remember thinking how could that be that there are other players as good as the Great One? All I know is that the USSR vs Canada series seemed like a great time to watch hockey then. I think the game is changing, and now the proven two-way players are sought after. We have the Swedes to thank for this neutral zone shinola today. It was the only way they could play against the skilled Soviet teams way back when.
Fri, 2010-03-12 23:25
#45
Back the original question, I think I agree with Tommy now on I whether asking who's the greatest of all time is even really meaningful. Especially when comparing players from different eras. Eg: was Howie Morenz really better than Fred "Cyclone" Taylor and was Taylor really better than "one eye" Frank McGee, who scored fourteen goals in one stanley cup game!!! Against some shmoes who dog-sledded halfway down from the Yukon. (and according to history I read, were denied the use of their one star player and an extra days rest by their sporting hosts in Ottawa)
Those first generations played a very different game, not near as evolved for sure, but to have to stay on ice the whole game on an outdoor rink with minimal pads and rules would have required certain skills and toughness that modern tough guys like, say, Eddie Shore (were going Waay back here) would have trouble emulating.
Even stars in same era like Howe versus Richard is tough to answer. Howe played longer at higher level than anyone (sorry Chris) and won scoring championships that Richard never did (suspended the one year he led, sparking the great Forum riot) but the Rocket did hit fifty goals which Howe never did --when alot of NHLers had gone off to war. Both led their teams to cups but Richard won more, but then Montreal probably had the best collection of talent in history, his last few years, while the Wings went into decline after dumping Sawchuk and union organizor (unsuccesful) Ted Lindsay. They were both considered fairly tough but Richard also scored big OT winners which Howe never did, so maybe better clutch player. Gord OTOH did score a couple OT winners for the team he led to the WHA championship -over the age of 46, age when even the old war horse Richard had retired. Both suffered career threatening injuries early but recovered to play their best hockey years after. So who was greater really?
I couldn't say except that varying circumstances make a difference even for the very best, apparently. (my little socialist message for the day) And sports fans will keep arguing over who was/is the greatest of all time. (favouring the heros of their own day no doubt --my cynical message for the day)
Another guy I can remember as a kid, yes, he was alive when I was 10 or so dropping the puck at a junior hockey game and I remember thinking that's really him! "The Cyclone"
Fri, 2010-03-12 23:39
#46
Funny, I saw the Cyclone at some opening ceremonies too. Little bald guy, must have been ninety by then, but could still move around on his own. Won Vancouver its last Lord Stanley --in 1915. :D
Fri, 2010-03-12 23:47
#47
Players are bigger and stronger, and more technically profficient all around, but I think some of the creativity, play making and puck handling skills have declined somewhat. Too many cheap shots now too, which probably don't encourage that side of it either.
I think Don Cherry said that the high tech player equipment and padding protect players from hits and stuff like never before. But when two big NHLers collide nowadays, it's said to cause rattling of their brains like never before, too. So I don't know. I think they were just as vicious on the ice in the old days. Dad said that players going off the ice on stretchers was common back in the 20's and 30s.
Sat, 2010-03-13 00:09
#48
Heard it could get pretty mean even back then, that's true. But that extra size has to make a difference on impact, even with better equipment, and I truly don't recall players aiming for others heads so much or routinely driving them head first into the boards from behind. Less room on the ice to manoeuver? Cherry also says that making helmets mandatory has led to less mutual respect and caution on-ice. More bs brawling is mostly what I remember from the seventies and a couple ugly stick swinging incidents.
Sat, 2010-03-13 00:45
#49
yes, Alomar = excellent! BUT, best pro athlete in T.O. history?
Gobby Alomar couldn't carry Gerry James' jockstrap:
Right-winger Gerry James played nearly five years with the Toronto Maple Leafs in the 1950s. A versatile athlete who also played football with the CFL's Winnipeg Blue Bombers and Saskatchewan Roughriders, James was chiefly a role player for the Leafs who could check and kill penalties. His exploits on the gridiron won him the Schenley Award as outstanding Canadian in 1954 and resulted in selection to the Canadian Football Hall of Fame. He was one of the last Canadian athletes to compete in two professional sports.Born in Regina, Saskatchewan, James came east to play junior hockey with the Toronto Marlboros. He was a consistent goal scorer and team leader during four seasons with the Marlies. His last year of junior in 1954-55 proved memorable as he suited up for one NHL game with the Maple Leafs and helped his junior club defeat the Regina Pats to win the Memorial Cup.
Sat, 2010-03-13 01:18
#50
More bs brawling is mostly what I remember from the seventies and a couple ugly stick swinging incidents.
I remember some donnybrooks with Stan Jonathan, terry O'Rellly, Dave Schultz etc. I remember seeing a game with Gilles Lupien pounding on toughs with Bruins, and I think one team or another's goons ticked off Larry Robinson enough for him to drop the gloves.
Grandad was considered a bigger man back in the 20s at 5-11 190. Dad said whenever they went to beantown, there was sure to be trouble on the ice for Morenz and Joliat, Lalonde, and they'd try to run Vezina the odd time. Grandad got down to bizness on those occasions.
Sat, 2010-03-13 03:57
#51
Aww, now you did it.