Racism in sports?

Catchfire wrote:

Hey Gingerone. Thanks for these links. I fixed up your posts--I agree there are some big problems with posting--we're trying to fix them, but the sad fact is it's something we just have to get used to for a while. I don't like it either, but there you go. Try putting in a few extra carriage returns between lines and it often cleans it up a bit.

Here are some other trheads we've had on racism in sports, although nothing on First Nations athletes in hockey:

Racism in Sports

Racism hit F1 in Spain

 

Hi Catchfire,

Sorry if I was stamping my feet a bit.  It took me some time to gather up all that information, so I was just getting a little frustrated.  It looks ok now, so you must have fixed it while I was absent.  Thank you.  :)   I'll take your advice next time and try to double-space, but mostly I think I'll just stick to regular urls from now on.   

More interesting stories I see.  I should have known that others here would already be ahead of me.  

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/tednolan.html

Of course, there's rumours that the reason Ted Nolan wasn't hired as an NHL coach after Buffalo was because he was drunk at practice, and sleeping with Hasek's wife, or that he was a "GM killer", due to the difficulties John Muckler had in Buffalo.

It's all gossip and rumours.  However, I think in the smallish inner world of NHL hockey there is no shortage of stories about this coach or that player sleeping with some other guy's wife, or this coach or that coach being a "GM Killer" or otherwise running afoul of the unwritten rules of the league.

But if they win, they still coach.   Everyone wants a winner and will over look pretty much anything if the player or coach or GM brings more wins than the last guy.

Except Ted Nolan..... for some reason.

In truth, I think the line Nolan crossed was when the whispering campaign was started against him, using racial stereotypes like he was drunk at practice, he reacted by decrying the inherent racism, thereby bringing the NHL into disrepute, in the eyes of the NHL.

It wasn't the racists bringing the league into disrepute, mind you, but the person blowing the whistle.

Getting away from hockey for just a moment, does it strike anyone else as odd that two time world series champion Cito Gaston never got a job managing a team other than the Jays?

Many people comment on his style, but back to back wins not making you a hot commodity in the managing fraternity?

And this kind of thing still goes on, even long after the barriers are supposedly broken and expansion should allow anyone with talent to shine through.

Consider the case of Anson Carter. 

Only two years after the cosmopolitan Vancouver Canucks refused his reasonable demand of two million a year, after a career thirty goal season  (they signed career grinder Willie Mitchell for 3.5-4) he was out of pro hockey.  Canucks had just dumped Todd Bertuzzi, there only other scoring winger but he wasn't good enough? 

He ended up signing with a weak Washington team that Ovechkin hadn't revived yet, and had a poor year.  Didn't do much better when they traded him to Carolina.  Next year he was a walk-on to Edmontons camp, place he first established himself as a star of sorts, but was cut early and ended up playing out his string in Europe.  That was it for his career.

How come?  Was he too old and too expensive?  Not unusually so, still a lot of guys just over thirty contributing, guys who have had more than one bad year.  Guys easily making that amount if they have any scoring touch and toughness at all.  He wasn't exactly Jerome Iginla, but over the previous decade he had proven himself capable in all areas, playing for Canada at the worlds a couple times.  

I signed onto a local sports site just to ask about it onetime, (Canucks were still looking for goals) and the word was he had a "bad attitude" and "thought too much of himself".  IOW, the usual stereotypes for black athletes who didn't just take what was given to them.  Unlike all the good old "Canadian" kids.  I argued the point a bit but the resident experts wouldn't hear it.  So another talent wasted, even when talent is in short supply everywhere.

Some progress for sure KenS, but the song does remain remarkably similar underneath the high notes. 

FYI, I first posted all those hockey db links so others could see who they are, when they played, for who and how long.  Most the retired players are from fairly recently too, but still only about half of the number there should be given the relative population (1-2 million FN, Inuit, metis out of 30 million in Canada now) and the popularity of the game even on the most isolated and impoverished reserves.  Reserves in Manitoba and Northern Ontario have organized Junior A teams now to encourage their more talented kids, some quite successful, but I noticed that even their star prospects are more often ignored by the scouts and disappear from the scene soon after.

Fred Sasakamoose is usually credited with being the first "full status Indian" to open the door the bigs, if only briefly, but Michigan native "Taffy" Abel starred in the thirties (guy was like 250 lb which was huge for back then, but could also play) and saw rumours that the great Pierre Pilote of Chicago is actually metis-Cree?  Not sure there, but the heavy duty racism of the day wouldn't have exactly encouraged anyone to openly proclaim non-white ancestry, even the greats.

Lots more examples of this kind of subtle and not-so subtle racism persisting, but that too can wait.

according to something i read, the genetic 'genome' writings (DNA) in human makeup that determines skin/eye/hair colour are fairly easily manipulated, with astonishing proviso that making a black person white is easier then making a white person black. It is so wonderful to think that, a non white person could, for an investment by government of 30 to 50 billion $ R and D (?) could be  changed into a blue eyed blond, as white as ann colter and rush limbah humbug! And Don cherry, needless to say. Klol..the poor racists would have nada to whine about, what with we're all 'angels' now: the Aryan botherhood, that's Weus! Anyway, it's through pure brute force endeavours like this that white supremecy/racism will finally be defeated, and nothing else. Meanwhile, the hatred you see in Israel/Palestine, etc, among people who LOOK RELATED by birth, may need a finer, more christian like approach...

Too few small Canadian men are sumo wrestlers.   Racist bastards!

Too few blind indy car drivers. Discrimination in sports...bastards!

Too few men in woman's syncronized swimming. Sexist bastards!

I don't think there have been ANY men crowned Miss America...we must not stand for this!!!

[thread drift]

Keystone wrote:

 For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

We can conclude that behaviour outside of what is considered acceptable and "normal" is criminalized in men. This includes being poor, by the way. And hey, that same behaviour that's criminalized in men, is psychiatrized for women, for the most part. 

[/thread drift]

.......

clandestiny, I can't begin to describe the levels of offensiveness that your post at #17 describes. Racial differences are socially constructed.  (Social and cultural differences are not, however.)

If there wasn't a "visible" difference in skin colour in humans, power holders would make up some other equally arbitrary difference to imbue superiority and inferiority to. Which they have. And to be crystal clear, the differences are arbitrary, systemic oppression is not.

I've been away so can I answer this Catchfire?

lepidoptera wrote:

Too few small Canadian men are sumo wrestlers.   Racist bastards!

Too few blind indy car drivers. Discrimination in sports...bastards!

Too few men in woman's syncronized swimming. Sexist bastards!

I don't think there have been ANY men crowned Miss America...we must not stand for this!!!

 

So in your mind the lack of aboriginal players making pro hockey is equivilant to that old rightwing cannard about the lack of "blind guys driving cabs" being portrayed as discrimination in our "liberal" media??  (not that it ever has been)  I'd say you have some real issues to work out dude -try expanding your range of reading beyond the National Post for starters. 

And sorry, but hockey is a little more part of our common Canadian "culture" than Sumo wrestling is.  And I do believe that close to fifty percent of aboriginal people are male, just like "us".  (I have heard rumours that women play hockey too but mostly in their own leagues which get no coverage) Anything else? 

Then I hope that wraps up that amusing little sideline.

Catchfire wrote:

lepidoptera, your comments are out of line and are not in concert with babble policy. If you have nothing constructive to add to this conversation, keep your asinine comments to yourself. This is a warning.

PLEASE kick me out....I am so non-racist that I don't even acknowledge the existance of FN, or gay or ethnic groups...etc...we're all the same. I don't belong here with you racists. You crackpots encourage racism and sexism etc. with such discussions.  One last thought before I'm kicked out for good , I hope....when FN folks stop living the steroetype they will stop being treated that way. Good-bye

KeyStone wrote:

Ginger,

I think that in order to establish the lack of FN/Metis players in the NHL represents racism, you need to examine the root cause.
Simply looking at the end results, and suggesting that anything short of parity, based on percentage of the overall population is lacking.

For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

There are also very few players in the NHL of Asian descent, relative to the population in Canada - likely with even greater disparity than the one brought up with FN/Metis. Does that demonstrate a racial bias, or are there other factors?

I think that one of the factors is the economic barriers to playing hockey. It costs money, which many FN children do not have due to the economic disparties.

I'm just plain old Erik again.  I outed myself.

But a fair point.  By itself its not necessarily "proof" but given the consistency of this pattern over time and place, and taken in combination with other indicators mentioned, it could be considered as evidence --unless other more compelling explanations are given.  You mentioned that ninety percent of those in prison are men, but that's easily explained by the fact that men are bigger on average, have more testoserone, and usually socialized towards more aggressive and competitive values. 

(related but extraneous commentary cut)

To aboriginal players in hockey again, the economic disadvantages they often start with should also be seen as a sign of this systemic racism, don't you think?  (ice-hockey is more expensive than basketball or footie)  But I also think it's often more direct than that.   I do believe that good players are still being passed over for lesser players, as prejudice is nothing if not unintelligent.  I'll get back to this somemore soon, thanks for reminding me.  I'm just trying to supply some tangeable, concrete evidence here, for what's obviously still a controversial subject.

Jeez this thread gets bumped and all sorts of things start happening.

lepidoptera, I wish I could say it's been nice knowing you. You're out.

clandestiny. One last time. Over 100 years ago, racism was "explained" biologically. Whites were the superior "race" back then too. Handy.

About 80-90 years ago, most, not all (apparently) of the biological-school-of-thought-to-justify-racism adherents, moved onto "socio-cultural" explanations. Again, white folks come out on top. Charming.

Using "racial features" and perceived "biological differences" to "explain" the reasons for racism is so offensive (sort of like making a biological argument for why women are inferior to men) that it warrants banning you, clandestiny. But you've been around a while, and I feel like your heart is in the right place.

This is 2010. Please do some reading, as you seem to be stuck in a long-ago disproved theory of racial difference.

And for the record, Ann Coulter isn't a success because she's white. She's a success because (among MANY other reasons) she's a white person in a white supremacist society.

thread drift in partial response to #19/
Could a blind person drive a car? Researchers are trying to make that far-fetched notion a reality.
The National Federation of the Blind and Virginia Tech plan to demonstrate a prototype vehicle next year equipped with technology that helps a blind person drive a car independently.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2010/07/02/blind-drivers-car.html#ixzz0sXbZi1Jt
/end thread drift

Cito is a separate case.

Despite back to back WS victories, there are three things that worked against Cito:

1) Terrible records following his back to back wins.

2) When he did win the WS, he had he highest payroll in all of MLB both years.

3) His in-game managing (or lack thereof), and managing of the pitchers is horrendous.

He is, however a tremendous hitting coach.
Several black managers were given the opportunity to manage MLB teams in between Cito's two stints.

So, while it may or may not be racism, it's certainly not conclusive.
One of the valid criticisms is that many teams have a policy of including one minority on a short list of five candidates, and Cito would frequently be added, simply to make the one minority quota for the interview process, even though they had no intention of hiring him.

France football heads mired in race row over alleged quotas for ethnic players

Quote:

France has been plunged into a fresh race crisis after claims that football officials tried to limit black and Arab players on youth training schemes to make the French team more white.

The French football federation has opened an internal investigation afterwebsite Mediapart reported that top management approved a quota system to limit young black players and those of north African origin emerging as candidates for the national team. The alleged plan involved limiting non-white youngsters as young as 12 or 13 from entering the selection process through training centres and academies.

"For the top brass in French football, the issue is settled: there are too many blacks, too many Arabs, and not enough white players in French football," the website said.

According to Mediapart, one of the most senior football federation figures wanted to set a cap of 30% on players of certain origins, but insisted at a meeting the quota should be kept quiet. At another meeting, the French national team coach Laurent Blanc allegedly backed changing youth talent selection criteria to favour players with "our culture, our history". Sources claimed Blanc cited current world champions Spain, saying: "The Spanish, they say: 'We don't have a problem. We have no blacks.'"

France is one of Canada's democratic western  NATO allies. Together we are currently showing how anti-racist we are by bombing arabs and black people in Libya but only because we have their best interests at heart.

Oh sorry this must be looney talk. I forgot we must not talk against our NATO allies in this great war against terrorists, who serendipitously all seem to be arab or black.

And then there is homophobia in sports.

Quote:

New York Ranger Sean Avery's support for same-sex marriage has drawn fire from a hockey agent.

"Very sad to read Sean Avery's misguided support of same-gender 'marriage.' Legal or not, it will always be wrong," said a tweet from Todd Reynolds, vice-president of Uptown Sports Management, whose hockey clientele includes Chris Neil, Cody McCormick and Mike Fisher.

Avery, an on-ice agitator who is no stranger to making headlines on and off the playing surface, stated his support for same-sex marriage in a video that is part of the New Yorkers for Marriage Equality campaign, organized by gay-rights organization Human Rights Campaign

wasn't there a guy who got banned from the leafs games for throwing something on the ice last year?  

The rivalry between the Flyers and Rangers turned ugly in a penalty-filled pre-season game that also appeared to include a homophobic slur from Philadelphia's Wayne Simmonds to noted New York agitator Sean Avery.

The Atlantic Division rivals combined for 77 penalty minutes in Philadelphia's 5-3 victory on Monday night, and more discipline could by coming from the NHL when the league sorts everything out.

Avery and Simmonds were at odds in the first period, and television cameras caught Simmonds jawing at Avery, appearing to utter the slur.

When Avery was asked by reporters after the game if Simmonds called him "what we think he called you," he answered: "Yeah, yeah."

Avery said he had "no idea" why Simmonds would make such a remark.

This marked the second controversy in two weeks for Simmonds, who is black. Last week, a banana was thrown at him from the stands during a pre-season game in London, Ont.

Simmonds didn't deny using the slur toward Avery.

"Honestly, we were going back and forth for a while there," he said, without providing details. "I don't recall everything that I did say to him, but he said to me some things I didn't like. And maybe I said some things that he didn't like.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2011/09/27/sp-nhl-phi-la-simmonds.html#ixzz1Z9SKf9Wr

Worse than a homophobic slur? Do tell.

Avery used to date a Canadian actress, whose name I forget but she played Jack Bauer's daughter on "24". This woman since started dating and later married Dion Phaneuf, who was playing for Calgary at the time. Avery was playing for Dallas and was in Calgary facing the Flames. In the dressing room before the game, he called the media over, got them to turn on their cameras and went into a disgusting rant about his ex-girlfriend, topped by a comment about how Dion Phaneuf was taking his "sloppy seconds". The league suspended him for a while and Dallas went even further by permanently kicking him off the team. Now, on the ice during an intense game, it's one thing to exchange heated words, but this was a pre-meditated thing where he called the media over to make sexist comments about his ex. He also got in trouble for calling George Laraque (former player current Green Party official) a monkey (Laraque is black) and made disparaging comments about French Canadian players.

He's generally known for being a dirty player and an asshole to everyone.

Mr. Tea, I think you missed my point. I am fairly familiar with Sean Avery. The point is that to say that Avery has done "much worse" than a homphobic slur is entirely the wrong game to be playing.