Through the Energy Looking Glass: Who Speaks for the Poor

27 posts / 0 new
Last post
Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture
Through the Energy Looking Glass: Who Speaks for the Poor

THROUGH THE ENERGY LOOKING GLASS: WHO SPEAKS FOR THE POOR?

By L.R. Wallis, Executive Director, Citizens for Total Energy

Sometime between dinner and the Milton Berle show on Dec. 8, 1953, this fervently democratic nation was astounded to learn that its president planned to give away America's most closely held national secrets at the height of the Cold War.

The time had come, said former soldier Dwight D. Eisenhower, who had led the Allied forces to victory in Europe during World War II, for the United States to beat the swords of atomic weaponry into plowshares of peace.

The president's unprecedented "Atoms for Peace" plan, unveiled that day at the United Nations headquarters in New York, would open up the field of nuclear science- until then controlled by governments for military purposes - only to help mankind by using the technology peacefully.

"President Eisenhower's vision changed the course of history," says Phillip Bayne, president of the U.S. Council for Energy Awareness. "For centuries, mankind had used technology to build bigger, more awesome weapons, each new version more lethal than the one before. Now, the technology that had been earmarked for weapons of mass destruction, more powerful than any in all of history, would be used to help heal and feed people and to improve their lives by providing the energy to produce electricity as well as new products."

In the four decades since this radical idea was offered, the uses of this technology have grown dramatically affecting our daily lives through electricity, medicine, and consumer products. Today, 423 nuclear power plants generate 17 percent of the world's electrical energy. Factories worldwide use radioactive gauges to test materials for defects and ensure the safety of bridges, automobile tires, roads, and airplanes. Products not invented 40 years ago - videotapes, contact lenses, and cleaning solutions - are made safer, more effective and at a lower cost through nuclear technology. Over 6,550 nuclear machine centers across the globe save lives by using radioactive materials to treat and diagnose illnesses. Ninety percent of all drugs are tested with radiation during their development. In the U.S., one out of every three hospital patients undergoes a beneficial procedure using radiation.

Electric power is required at this stage of civilization for almost every economic and cultural activity. For most of the uses to which electricity is put, there are no reasonable substitutes. While it may sound romantic, no one would seriously entertain the possibility of returning to the era of gas lights, oil lamps and candles in those regions where electricity is available for lighting. There is no possible substitute for radio, television, the telephone or the computer.

In short, electrical energy has become so ubiquitous and essential in the industrialized world that it has almost joined the classical list of food, shelter, and clothing as one of the necessities of modern life. Just as the terms "bronze age", "iron age", and "industrial age" have been used as indices to technology in characterizing periods in the advance of civilization, today we can say we are in the "age of electricity." Amazingly, it has attained this state in just over a hundred years of our modern history.

Yet, when we as a nation consider the world's need for more energy, we become somewhat like that storybook character Alice in Wonderland.

One moment we think very big, the next we think very small. One moment we say we must develop all energy resources as quickly as possible. The next moment we hear shouts like "harness the wind, the sun, and the tides." Or we listen to jabberwocky saying the world does not need any new or expanded energy resources; conservation alone will solve all the problems.

Like the Mad Hatter, some people continuously run around with wondrous charts and long lists of statistics stuck in their hats ready to prove their point. Others sit on their academic toad stools and merely cry "Doom." A few puff their cheeks, and yawn, "Why worry?" It is enough to give Alice and anyone else a monstrous headache. Yet decisions must be made.

So, "Where do we go from here?" asked Alice.

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cheshire cat.

When looking at energy, the answer also depends on where you have been.

For a moment, let's step back in history a million years. Primitive humans each used some six thousand units (BTUs) of energy a day derived simply by eating food. One hundred thousand years ago our hunting ancestors used fire to cook and to warm themselves and consumed 24 thousand units - four times as much energy. By the 15th century, the medieval populous had learned how to use animals, windmills, waterwheels and coal consuminmg 120 thousand units of energy - 20 times as much as early man. By 1875, the steam engine had put 340 thousand units a day at the disposal of industrial man in Alice's country of England.

In today's technological society, America is at the top of the benefit table with an average yearly consumption per person of 337 million units of energy ... over 56,000 times as much as the primitives.

In today's industrialized world, it takes the energy equivalent of one-half glass of diesel fuel just to put a glass of milk on the table; two pounds of coal to produce a one pound loaf of bread; and three pounds of coal to produce one pound of hamburger. Making a car uses the energy equivalent of 1.3 tons of oil; running it for a year, another 1.3 tons. Each day transportation in the U.S.A. consumes 836 Olympic-sized swimming pools of petroleum fuel.

In the midst of these riches, it is easy to forget that the world's population increases by one million every four days... 177 people every minute, and such growth is expected to continue for another 120 years. By 2010 there will be 520 million extra car loads of people in South Asia, one million extra car loads in Europe and there will be one million extra car loads in just one Indian city... just one. By the end of the next century, five billion more people wil be added to our present population of 5.5 billion. Most of them will be in underdeveloped countries where they will be crammed into ramshackle, dirty cities or left to struggle in rural wastelands. More people will almost certainly mean more pollution as they strive to power their lives with the nearest means at hand... fossil fuels.

Giving these additional five billion even a halfway decent standard of living means giving each of them adequate housing, food, transportation and 1,000 kilowatt hours of electrical energy per year. Ignoring the energy needed for the basic necessities of life 1,000 kilowatt hours per person means 742,000 megawatts of new electrical generating capacity. Multiply that by the amount of carbon dioxide produced by burning fossil fuels and you will find the answer falls off your calculator.

It boggles the mind to think that five billion more people will be added to a planet where existing overtaxed infrastructures are already collapsing. Many water conduits in the developing countries are crumbling and raw sewage runs into the water lines.

The availability of clean drinking water has already failed to keep pace with population growth. And there are few toilets and washrooms to break the transmission of disease. A recent Mexican health ministry study revealed no less than 80 percent of the food served on the streets of Mexico City contained fecal bacteria.

In Mexico's poverty-stricken Chiapas region, most of the homes have no method to dispose of human feces, other than in the gardens that surround the household. When the rainy seasons come, the human waste is washed into the water supply. Even though drinking water is carried by women long distances, it is seldom safe.

Prevention - by boiling water for drinking and washing food - is a matter of economics: Many families lack the money to buy kerosene. Boiling one liter of water for 20 minutes can use an entire day's supply of fuel.

A major dilemma facing society can be stated simply as "the risk of doing on the one hand and the risk of not doing on the other." The goal of conserving the environment inevitably conflicts with that of ensuring an adequate supply of energy to maintain life at adequate levels. It is a dilemma on which the Rio "Earth Summit" failed to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Unfortunately, it is very easy, in fact too easy, for the majority of people in the developed world to embrace a severe case of myopia when they contemplate the world's population growth and increasing energy requirements. They are shocked, even stunned, by the extent of the problems. In addition to politics, economics, and physical supply problems, there are those of world energy flows and the impact on life support systems.

Fortunately for the world's poor, the problem is not that complex - just difficult. There really never has been and probably never will be a shortage of primary energy. The problem that man has always faced is how to convert our almost boundless resources into mechanical work or other usable forms of energy. Mankind has managed to harness additional energy supplies at each stage of his development... and a new source is available today. Man's newest energy source, nuclear power, must be used to help solve the world's energy problems. If used in fast reactors, uranium reserves should last 2,000 years. It could be potentially diastrous for the developed nations to abandon nuclear energy when in a few years time, nuclear power could become essential to global survival.

The main opposition to nuclear power is centered among the educated, well-nourished and financially secure middle and upper middle class. When was the last time you saw a hungry looking anti-nuclear protester - a poor man in a lesser developed country protesting against the establishment of a nuclear power program? Since it is not the poor speaking out against nuclear power, then how can the well fed of the world feel justified in opposing programs that can only help their fellow man? The answer is obvious. Because of the difficulty of the problem, they just bury their heads in the sand, place themselves in Alice's Wonderland and listen to jabberwocky saying the world does not need any new or expanded energy resources; conservation alone will solve all problems.

Imagine - the industrialized world managing to halve its energy consumption. Imagine - as much as three-quarters of the world's present energy need coming from renewable resources. It sounds like the answer to a conservationist's prayer; no more wasting fossil fuels, no more pollution, no more need for nuclear power... and no more heat, no more light, no more transport! In the real world, the totally green dream would be the stuff of which nightmares are made. Because even those massive improvements in energy management just mentioned are simply not enough to ensure a viable future for our grandchildren let alone the coming billions. John Collier, chairman of Britain's Nuclear Electric Company, put the problem neatly at a recent European Nuclear Conference in Lyon, France:

"Like all Utopian schemes, the conservationist ideal works until you add people - nearly 10 billion people by the year 2100."

That's about twice the present world population, and most of the increase is expected in the developing world where energy needs are rising all the time. So, even if their consumption no more than doubles - and the rest of us make the massive savings suggested above - world energy consumption will still jump by 100 percent in the next century. Where will it come from? With the present mix - that's nearly 90 percent fossil fuels - the world would grind to a halt by 2070. Newly-discovered reserves might keep us going until 2100 - if we didn't choke to death on carbon dioxide first. The pollution would treble in that time. Halve fossil fuel consumption and both nuclear and renewable energy sources would then have to provide three-quarters of the world's present total energy needs each. As John Collier said:

"I am quite certain that nuclear power could achieve this but I am less sure about the renewables."

And even nuclear power won't have much of a chance unless we start building now.

Dr. Chauncey Starr, former chairman of the California based Environmental Policy Research Institute, states:

"The industrialized nations of the world have an obligation to develop and safely utilize nuclear power as well as all other reasonable alternatives to fossil fueled based energy. Only the industrial countries have the resources, skill and capital to engage in such development. But above all, the industrialized nations have a social obligation to give developing countries access to reasonably priced liquid fuels by reducing their own consumption through conservation and nuclear power and other alternative energy sources."

We also have to remember that the Middle East holds almost two-thirds of the world's oil reserves and three-tenths of the gas. Another third of the gas reserves are owned by Russia. As never before, the conventional energy supplies are vulnerable to political change. To have the control of energy is to control food and inevitably gain political power.

It's even more frightening when we realize that today's national governments do not work well in the quantum world of microchips, fax, and instant global information. William Van Dusen Wishard, president of World Trends Research, points out that all the major currents of the 20th Century intellectual thought have dried up. Marxism has collapsed. Socialism is vanishing. Totalitarianism is discredited. Even the French are losing faith in nationalism. Further, Wishard says liberalism inspires few hearts and little action. In the past two years, the U.S.S.R and Yugoslavia have gone from being two nations to becoming 23 nations. There is carnage in Bosnia; whole nations disappear in Africa; there is barbarianism in our streets and in our culture. We are witnessing the disappearance of national cultural and ethnic boundaries that provide identity. Wishard describes the changes taking place in the world today as an earthquake rolling like a giant wave underneath the foundation of life.

For a while governments and the media will continue to ascribe riots and other violent upheavals abroad mainly to ethnic and religous conflict. But Robert D. Kaplan in the February 1994 issue of The Atlantic Monthly provides a more compelling answer. In his preview of the 21st Century, Kaplan says as these conflicts multiply, it will become apparent that something else is happening making more and more places like Nigeria, India and Brazil ungovernable.

It is time, according to Kaplan, to understand "The Environment" for what it is: the national security issue of the early 21st century. The political and strategic impact of the surging populations, spreading disease, deforestation and soil erosion, water depletion, air pollution and lagging fossil energy supplies will arouse the public, inflame existing hatreds and unite assorted interests left over from the cold war.

Kaplan refers to an article published in the fall of 1991 by Thomas Fraser Dixon who is head of the Peace adn Conflict Studies program at the University of Toronto. Dixon predicts that:

"In the developing world environmental stress will present people with a choice that is increasingly among totalitarianism (as in Iraq), fascist-leaning mini-states (as in Serb held Bosnia) and road-warrior cultures (as in Somalia)."

Dixon also predicts that:

"As environmental degradation proceeds, the size of the potential social disruption will increase. Indeed the Saddam Husseins of the future will have more- not fewer opportunities because people find liberation in violence."

According to Kaplan, a large number of the people on this planet to whom the comfort and stability of a middle class life is utterly unknown, find war and a barracks existence a step up rather than a step down. Only when people attain a certain economic, educational and cultural standard is this trait tranquilized.

The Atlantic Monthly on its February cover provides a very graphic and vivid summary of how Kaplan views the future if we proceed on our present course. It states:

"Nations will break up under the tidal flow of refugees from environmental and social disaster. As borders crumble, another type of boundary is erected - a wall of disease. Wars will be fought over scarce resources, especially water, and war itself will become continuous with crime, as armed bands of stateless marauders clash with private security forces of the elites."

Whether we believe the environment is or is not the national security issue of the 21st Century, the ultimate losers in the debate are the poor - the inhabitants of the third world who spend their valuable foreign exchange for expensive foreign oil, who burn dung for fuel and watch in silence as fields turn to desert, water supplies dry up and children starve. We owe it ot them and their children to follow the path mankind has taken since making the first tool and lighting the first fire. We must extend and multiply the power of our limbs by making use of increasingly potent and complex sources of energy in forms that can safely, easily, and efficiently be employed. I think the message is clear. The best thing for the environment and the world's disadvantaged masses is prosperity. Something that cannot occur unless adequate energy supplies are available.

There will always be doubters who believe this is impossible. Just like Alice they would say, "There's not use trying." Or in Alice's words, "One can't believe impossible things."

But I believe the queen's advice to Alice is sound. "I daresay you haven't had much practice." She said, "When I was your age I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

In energy, as in all other considerations in the ecology of human kind, we still have the opportunity to knowingly "invent" our own future - as people and as institutions. But time is rapidly running out.

Issues Pages: 
Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture

Thoughts? Reactions? Critiques?

Any kind of discussion really...

Pants-of-dog

Perhaps if you simply summarised why you believe that nuclear energy would be useful in a sustainable manner for developing nations?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

It reads like agit-prop from the nuclear energy lobby. Why is these nice white people always wanting to save the people of the Gobal South from themselves, never consider leaving them, and their resources, alone to work it out for themselves?

Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture

Pants-of-dog wrote:

Perhaps if you simply summarised why you believe that nuclear energy would be useful in a sustainable manner for developing nations?

At the risk of over-summarizing:

-if we use the assumptions that global warming is a threat to our society and that fossil fuels are becoming scarce and that we want to live in societies which have electricity

-current renewables (wind, solar) are incapable of maintaining base load capacity and are only useful to supplement peak load due to intermittancy and low generating power

-there are geographic limitations on hydro

-this leaves nuclear power, which is reliable, has high generating capacity, and emits little to no greenhouse gasses

 

With regards to the article which I posted, it essentially says that since developed nations have already destroyed the world, it is unfair for us to expect developing countries not to use fossil fuels, as they are generally lacking in the wealth necessary to use cleaner methods, so the burden is on richer nations to use cleaner energy generation methods.

Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture

Frustrated Mess wrote:

It reads like agit-prop from the nuclear energy lobby. Why is these nice white people always wanting to save the people of the Gobal South from themselves, never consider leaving them, and their resources, alone to work it out for themselves?

Clearly, you either didn't read, or didn't understand what was written. Allowing the global south to use their own resources to build their societies is exactly what is advocated. What it says is that it is hypocritical for wealthy 'white' (since you decided to drag race into this) nations to prohibit poor countries from using fossil fuels to develop, when that is precisely what rich countries did. Instead, it is the wealthy 'white' countries which must bear the burden of clean, sustainable energy.

Pants-of-dog

Red_and_Black wrote:

THROUGH THE ENERGY LOOKING GLASS: WHO SPEAKS FOR THE POOR?

By L.R. Wallis, Executive Director, Citizens for Total Energy

...

The main opposition to nuclear power is centered among the educated, well-nourished and financially secure middle and upper middle class. When was the last time you saw a hungry looking anti-nuclear protester - a poor man in a lesser developed country protesting against the establishment of a nuclear power program?

June 12th, 2007

http://weblog.greenpeace.org/makingwaves/archives/2007/06/thousands_prot...

Quote:
This month thousands of people in Indonesia have been showing their opposition to nuclear power with a massive protest yesterday in the Kudus regency against government plans to build Indonesia's first new nuclear power plant in the nearby Jepara regency.

 

Quote:
Since it is not the poor speaking out against nuclear power, then how can the well fed of the world feel justified in opposing programs that can only help their fellow man? The answer is obvious. Because of the difficulty of the problem, they just bury their heads in the sand, place themselves in Alice's Wonderland and listen to jabberwocky saying the world does not need any new or expanded energy resources; conservation alone will solve all problems.

If, by jabberwocky, L.R. Wallis means conservationists, I believe (s)he is misrepresenting the message of conservationists. By dramatically reducing our energy consumption, we can drastically reduce the amount of energy production we need. It will not solve all our problems, but it will make many of our existing problems far more managaeable.

One of the ways in which 'magic bullet' proponents (magic bullets, in this case, are any solution that will solve all the problems of a specific situation such as imagining that nuclear power will satisfy all our energy requirements) confuse the issue is by assuming that the situation is fixed rather than fluid. Nuclear energy seems like the only viable solution if we continue to waste energy at the current levels, but since Bucky Fuller designed a building that creates more energy than it consumes, such a paradigm is obsolete.

There is the issue of rising population numbers, but that will level off as developing countries achieve similar standards of living that we enjoy in the developed world. This article seems to be making the assumption that the societies of the developing world will stagnate in terms of birthing practices even though they will develop in terms of energy consumption. This is not the case historically.

Quote:
Dr. Chauncey Starr, former chairman of the California based Environmental Policy Research Institute, states:

"The industrialized nations of the world have an obligation to develop and safely utilize nuclear power as well as all other reasonable alternatives to fossil fueled based energy. Only the industrial countries have the resources, skill and capital to engage in such development. But above all, the industrialized nations have a social obligation to give developing countries access to reasonably priced liquid fuels by reducing their own consumption through conservation and nuclear power and other alternative energy sources."

Please note that nuclear energy is suggested as part of a more comprehensive solution that also includes renewable practices and conservation.

Quote:
We also have to remember that the Middle East holds almost two-thirds of the world's oil reserves and three-tenths of the gas. Another third of the gas reserves are owned by Russia. As never before, the conventional energy supplies are vulnerable to political change. To have the control of energy is to control food and inevitably gain political power.

...

For a while governments and the media will continue to ascribe riots and other violent upheavals abroad mainly to ethnic and religous conflict. But Robert D. Kaplan in the February 1994 issue of The Atlantic Monthly provides a more compelling answer. In his preview of the 21st Century, Kaplan says as these conflicts multiply, it will become apparent that something else is happening making more and more places like Nigeria, India and Brazil ungovernable.

The same geopolitical issues exist for uranium mining, disposal of high level toxic waste, and transport of nuclear goods.

 

There are other considerations that make nuclear energy questionable, including the high number of highly trained specialists required to maintain a power plant, difficulty in terms of dismantling old nuclear reactors, the ease with which such systems would be centralised, potential mishaps, nuclear proliferation, the increased security risks associated with nuclear devices, black market trade in nuclear secrets and weaponry, and using this as a justification for war when some developing country tries to start their own nuclear program.

Fidel

Someone said that nuclear power is like doing brain surgery to cure a headache. I think it's subsidizing old world economy, and old world economy is at the heart of the problem.

Red_and_Black Red_and_Black's picture

POD, I do agree entirely that nuclear power must be part of a comprehensive solution. What I am suggesting is that it shoulder much of the burden of the base load which would be left in the absence of fossil fuels. As far as conservation, I'm not saying that it doesn't serve its purpose, what I'm saying is that a combination of renewables and conservation is not sufficient without considerable leaps forward in technology. In terms of birth rates, can you imagine if every country in the world had the same level of development as us, consuming the same amount of power? Thats ALOT of power, and I don't see current or emerging renewable technologies as being capable of solving the problem.

As for your specific criticisms of nuclear power, some are valid, others are more common, visceral reactions. We (specifically Canada) don't have an issue with the geopolitical issues of uranium mining. There are massive deposits of uranium in Canada, particularly in the Canadian shield, and it takes very little uranium to actually run a generator. Disposal is an issue, but not as large as its generally made out to be. Used fuel, in the modern age, is stored in a manner which does not make it dangerous in terms of radiation. Its equivalent to keeping a sealed container of rat poison in your basement... its not a big deal. Its more of a public relations issue than anything. Same goes for transport. Furthermore, you mention potential accidents. The only major accidents which happened did so in a much less safety-oriented time. Things like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island would never happen today (its a long explaination, so I won't go into it unless you really want me to). As for the comments about nuclear weapons, let me first say that weapons grade fuel and reactor grade fuel are not equivalent. there is a very long, and complicated process which is highly costly to make this conversion, and doing so by means of used fuel is actually the least effectual way to do it.

And, I know you didn't explicitly mention it, but I'll adress it anyways as it always comes up. People are often afraid of a nuclear reactor undergoing an explosion analogous to a nuclear weapon. This is not physically possible. Not only is there the issue of the enrichment level of the uranium, which I mentioned earlier, but the conditions which are necessary for such a catastrophe are simply not present. In order to have a nuclear explosion, you have to implode the fuel in a specific way, which is not even simlar to what happens in a reactor.

Large numbers of highly trained specialists are absolutely an obstacle. The pricetag is absolutely the biggest issue in nuclear power, and something which certainly must be taken into account.

Fidel

If nuclear power is so wonderful, then why is neither Bay Street nor Wall Street interested in financing it? We have bottomless nuclear money pits already in Ontario since the Darlington nuclear megafiasco, and now we have "public benefit" charges on green power. It's fubar.

Pants-of-dog

Red_and_Black wrote:
POD, I do agree entirely that nuclear power must be part of a comprehensive solution. What I am suggesting is that it shoulder much of the burden of the base load which would be left in the absence of fossil fuels. As far as conservation, I'm not saying that it doesn't serve its purpose, what I'm saying is that a combination of renewables and conservation is not sufficient without considerable leaps forward in technology. In terms of birth rates, can you imagine if every country in the world had the same level of development as us, consuming the same amount of power? Thats ALOT of power, and I don't see current or emerging renewable technologies as being capable of solving the problem.

There are two things that come to mind when I read this paragraph.

The first is a response to your statement about leaps in technology.

The reason nuclear technology is more advanced than solar or wind or tidal or any renewable energy resource is quite simple: you can make a bomb with it. This is one of the reasons why the developing world is going to develop nuclear technology anyway, and why the developed world is going to attempt to control or limit nuclear development in the developing world. Not to offend you or somehow suggest that you want this to happen, but a plan like the one described in your OP would dovetail nicely with a plan to outlaw nuclear development in the developing world.

It is also why governments and private corporations have invested so many dollars into researching and developing nuclear technology. If windmills could be weaponised, we would have some pretty awesome ones by now.

The second is that I do not believe that it is reasonable to assume that the birth rate of developing nations would stay so high if the rate of energy consumption increases. This is nbecause as the energy consumption increases, so the standard of living increases. And as that increases, birth rates slow down.

 

Quote:
As for your specific criticisms of nuclear power, some are valid, others are more common, visceral reactions. We (specifically Canada) don't have an issue with the geopolitical issues of uranium mining. There are massive deposits of uranium in Canada, particularly in the Canadian shield, and it takes very little uranium to actually run a generator.

Yes and no. We do no thave issues concerning availability, but uranium mining is probably one of the more toxic things to mine, and no mining operation is ecologically friendly right now. If nuclear energy is going to become the staple that oil is today, this issue will have to be resolved. Right now it is being ignored, and I would imagine that in Canada it is being ignored because the people most affected are aboriginal, so the government could not care less about them.

 

Quote:
Disposal is an issue, but not as large as its generally made out to be. Used fuel, in the modern age, is stored in a manner which does not make it dangerous in terms of radiation. Its equivalent to keeping a sealed container of rat poison in your basement... its not a big deal. Its more of a public relations issue than anything.

That depends. With high level radioactive waste, there is a very good track record and safety protocols in the Western developed world. For low level wastes, or high levelwastes in other parts of the world, not so good. And low level waste disposal in the developing world is, as you imagine, simply awful. Some of those Somali pirate groups formed themselves to attack boats that were illegally dumping nuclear waste in Somali waters.

The public relations issue is also a problem. Everyone wants "clean" power, but do not want to have the waste associated with this "clean" power in their proverbial back yard.

 

Quote:
Same goes for transport. Furthermore, you mention potential accidents. The only major accidents which happened did so in a much less safety-oriented time. Things like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island would never happen today (its a long explaination, so I won't go into it unless you really want me to).

This is true. I would be very surprised if any sort of major accident occured like that in Europe or the US. The real issue with power plants is requiring so many incedibly well trained people to run them.

 

Quote:
As for the comments about nuclear weapons, let me first say that weapons grade fuel and reactor grade fuel are not equivalent. there is a very long, and complicated process which is highly costly to make this conversion, and doing so by means of used fuel is actually the least effectual way to do it.

For sure. But even if you take a barrel of toxic waste and strap a convential bomb to it in order to make the world's crappiest dirty nuclear bomb, and then set it off in downtown L.A., the warhawks will use it as an excuse to intervene in another country's resources again. It won't really matter that it wasn't a real nuclear bomb. The real worry for actual nuclear weaponry is black market sales of completed weapons smuggled out of the developed world. Even a small yield one would have devastating effects.

Quote:
And, I know you didn't explicitly mention it, but I'll adress it anyways as it always comes up. People are often afraid of a nuclear reactor undergoing an explosion analogous to a nuclear weapon. This is not physically possible. Not only is there the issue of the enrichment level of the uranium, which I mentioned earlier, but the conditions which are necessary for such a catastrophe are simply not present. In order to have a nuclear explosion, you have to implode the fuel in a specific way, which is not even simlar to what happens in a reactor.

Uranium enrichment brings with it other issues. There is the fuel cost of transporting the uranium from the mine to the enrichment plant and then to the nuclear power plant and there is the fuel cost of actually enriching the uranium.

 

Quote:
Large numbers of highly trained specialists are absolutely an obstacle. The pricetag is absolutely the biggest issue in nuclear power, and something which certainly must be taken into account.

We don't seem to be disagreeing much.

Anyways, what would be good would be life cycle assessments in terms of energy produced compared to energy costs for the entire life cycle of the energy production apparatus for the different energy production systems. I have seen these put out by nuclear energy lobby groups that show that nuclear energy (along with wind, and hydro coming in second) is the most efficient and least polluting of the different methods, but I would like to see that confirmed by independent researchers.

Fidel

Bottomless nuclear money pits have nothing to do with helping the poor. It's about subsidizing an obsolete cold war era expansionist economy that has become unsustainable due to a lack of central planning. "Spot markets" and deregulation of power is a myth and highly incompatible with the nature of electrical power and power infrastructure in general.

Pants-of-dog

Fidel wrote:

Bottomless nuclear money pits have nothing to do with helping the poor. It's about subsidizing an obsolete cold war era expansionist economy that has become unsustainable due to a lack of central planning. "Spot markets" and deregulation of power is a myth and highly incompatible with the nature of electrical power and power infrastructure in general.

That may be true. Some parts definitely are. Having said that, if I saw a meta-analysis of independent life cycle assessments showing that nuclear power was one of the most environmentally sustainable methods of producing energy, I would defend its inclusion in a comprehensive approach to satisfying our energy needs.

Fidel

I think the west is about 30 years behind the eight ball on nuclear power physics. Some say it's due to the hippies and green peacers protesting nuclear expansion from North America to Germany. I don't know, and I think it had something to do with pulling so many of North America's best and brightest into finance and investment banking over the years, which was a waste of time and talent as things have turned out. If they could figure out how to close the nuclear fuel cycle and squeeze every last joule of energy from spent fuel, it would be a real achievement.

No Yards No Yards's picture

Ahh yes, get the poor countries to pay for the rich countries to build a nuclear power plant in their countries that don't even have an electrical power grid ... the poor need graves too. Maybe we can trick the poor of the world into believing that a proper burial consists of being buried in corporate plots in mid-west North America.

Do the poor need a second ass-hole? Can we trick them into believing they need it?

 

Nuclear power implies a central distribution system ... an expensive and needless waste of resources.

Pants-of-dog

No Yards wrote:

Ahh yes, get the poor countries to pay for the rich countries to build a nuclear power plant in their countries that don't even have an electrical power grid ... the poor need graves too. Maybe we can trick the poor of the world into believing that a proper burial consists of being buried in corporate plots in mid-west North America.

Do the poor need a second ass-hole? Can we trick them into believing they need it?

 

Nuclear power implies a central distribution system ... an expensive and needless waste of resources.

I suggest you read post #4.

Fidel

I don't think we should build anymore nuclear power plants in Ontario. We should let Bay Street foot the nuclear power bills if they want to perpetuate an obsolete economy. They should give priority to lights and heat for everyone before corporate welfare handouts to a few.

Pants-of-dog

While it would be marvelous if the government stopped funding nuclear energy and rather used those funds to support what we call renewable energy systems, it is not going to happen. This is due to the obvious relationship between nuclear weapons and nuclear energy.

Fidel

But we have no nuclear weapons in Canada. At least, I don't think so. The US has nuclear weapons, and they have more nuclear power plants than any other country. There are dozens of nuclear power plants all around the Great Lakes region and leaking varying amounts of tritium into the environment. And corporate America is still short of electrical power. America needs sustainable energy policies too and not ones that are reliant on Canadian fossil fuels and other energy, and they should consider not waging blood for oil phony wars abroad. America's national energy policies as they stand now are a threat to the environment as well as world peace.

Pants-of-dog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nucl...

If we take that article at face value, it would seem that Canada has had nuclear weapons in the past, and has also been crucial to the US and the UK nuclear efforts. Canada has also supposedly ended all its nuclear weapons programs, but Fidel, you are simply too intelligent to believe the Canadian government when they say things like that.

Fidel

Ya the Bomarc was a multi-million dollar boondoggle. They had a limited range of a few hundred miles. Had we ever launched one, it was guaranteed to explode somewhere over Canada. Imagine the elk and deer steaks and blown up moose pasture and contaminated soil long time after. What a mess. I liken that strategy to holding a knife to our own throats in the face of a non-existent enemy. Why? We handed the Yanks an entire aircraft industry for a bunch of dud missiles they didn't want or need and neither did we. Kick-back and graft? You bet. I think it's high time for the NATO mafia to cease and desist with the nuclear blackmail and colder war baloney.

Pants-of-dog

Fidel wrote:

Ya the Bomarc was a multi-million dollar boondoggle..... I think it's high time for the NATO mafia to cease and desist with the nuclear blackmail and colder war baloney.

What does this have to do with the environmental impact of nuclear energy?

Fidel

I think the Liberal government realizes just how expensive nuclear power expansion would be and have backed off for the time being. We've still got debt hangover from Darlington, and there are other issues with aging grid infrastructure needing replacing. They should have gone harder with conservation and energy efficiency. We could have saved the demand needs for another Darlington nuclear expansion by retrofitting millions of drafty and leaky homes and commercial buildings with modern building materials. Legislating energy efficient appliances is another good idea. And all those new home constructions with central air conditioning will continue to push the limits of power generation. I can see why hospitals, the sick and the elderly would need air conditioning in Ontario. But I think it's a luxury for most of us. I think people in parts of Australia and Florida and places like that need air conditioning. But most of us in Canada don't need it. It's not sticky, oppressive, stinkin' hot here for very long like it gets in some places for more months of the year. But we shouldn't foot the bills for another Darlington. No way. It's time they sat down and started thinking about greener economies of the future. We've hemorrhaged hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs in Ontario and many of which won't be coming back. The easy years of cold war prosperity powered by cheap electricity are over.

Pants-of-dog

What would stop the developed nations from dumping their nuclear waste in the developing world?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/09/italy.nuclearpower

ygtbk

There is ongoing research into a number of new reactor designs attempting to squeeze more power out of available fuel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

I'm not sure if any of them really beat Candu in terms of safety, but that's why it's called research.

Pants-of-dog

ygtbk wrote:

There is ongoing research into a number of new reactor designs attempting to squeeze more power out of available fuel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

I'm not sure if any of them really beat Candu in terms of safety, but that's why it's called research.

There is promising research in all fields of energy production. Nuclear will still get the lion's share ofresearch money, I would expect.

George Victor

Through the Energy Looking Glass: Who Speaks for the Poor?

Obviously, the ;poor of the third/undeveloped world only await the appearance of geologists to speak to their mineral wealth.

But in Canada, a great many people freeze in the dark of a Canadian winter because of the cost of energy. The is a large townhouse development in WAterloo, Ont., owned by a REIT (built in the early 1970s) heated by baseboard electric heaters. A tenant, a single woman living with her border collie, economizes by inviting the collie to sleep on her feet. With lots of blankets the heat can be turned way down.  Of course, with the new "smart meters" in stalled at the demand of the Ontario Power Authority, electricity will be cheap like borsch in the wee morning hours when this goes into effect...next year?  But who wants to try to sleep in the heat of heaters turned on to take advantage of lower electricity rates?

Someday, the REITs (Real Estate Investment (income) Trust will hopefully be REQUIRED to have their tenants in mind, and an electric furnace with ceramic blocks to retain the heat into the next day will be installed.  Such practical applications of energy storage can be introduced any time the profit motive is required to also keep people in mind.  Check out your mutual fund/ pension fund to see how many REITs you depend on to build your "golden years' account."