Male Player Culture and Sexual Attitudes Toward Women

I really liked your post when I saw it yesterday, Apples.

I've really benefitted from a strong female role model in my mother--who played hockey in the seventies before Canada even had a national women's program, rode a motorcycle, mowed the lawn in her bikini and became a widely respected high school principal. But of course that's pale compensation for the inundation of anti-feminist ideology that bombards us on a daily basis.

On Saturday I was enjoying a drink on a terrace with my partner, and she pointed out--which I didn't notice, of course--a group of fairly geeky-looking guys (i.e. not typical "jocks" or whatever, guys who probably consider themselves "sensitive"--hell, some of them could have been my friends or colleagues) who were making all sorts of sexist comments about various parts of women celebrities anatomy. They used the usual strategies: morselizing them, dehumanizing them, breaking them down into a Frankenstein assemblage of parts rather than a holistic, human individual. I thought about my role in that situation: "hey lads, show some respect" etc. But quite clearly, the bar was a masculine, heterosexual space and that behaviour was more or less normalized. There were all sorts of other ingredients to the situation that made it seem out of place: like it was in the middle of day, there were children around, it was on the street, etc. But the actual content of their conversation didn't contribute to its out-of-place-ness. Why not? we wondered. Why is the misogynism the last distasteful part of that scenario? Well, the answer is easy, actually...

In the end, the group left shortly after we noticed, and my partner didn't want to create conflict (and she's actually quite capable of stopping idiots like this in their tracks) but I was left feeling cowardly and impotent in the face of that anti-feminist space.

What was also striking was the performative nature of their conversation--because they weren't stereotypical macho dudes, it was like they were playing men (well, we all of us men play men to an extent): this is how men talk. Are we not men?

I work in the construction industry. The number of sexist comments I hear and just let go by are legion. Its not just the melieux, its also the fact that the nature of the industry is that the people you work with is just a flow. Even if there is one person you have mutual knowledge enough that he can have a context to what you say, its just one guy among a bunch of people who know nothing about you.

I have to pick my moments when I say anything. And thats not just for my own sanity. I'd be quickly widely known and dismissed as a crank if I didn't pick my times. And people don't pay attention to what cranks say.

I have noticed that when I'm around people who do know me,  they don't initiate blatantly racist or sexist remarks. Since almost none of these people do I know well, I often wonder whether they are only behaving at this moment, to not offend me personally. Part of me says that even if 'thats all', who knows that it isn't part of baby steps.

From my watching, the increased acceptance of openly gay men in the industry began with only refraining from mocking them.

Quote:

On Saturday I was enjoying a drink on a terrace with my partner, and she pointed out--which I didn't notice, of course--a group of fairly geeky-looking guys (i.e. not typical "jocks" or whatever, guys who probably consider themselves "sensitive"--hell, some of them could have been my friends or colleagues) who were making all sorts of sexist comments about various parts of women celebrities anatomy...

I've been in the milieux that KenS has described, but I've also hung around younger guys as a minor sports coach. I've heard a whole team turn on a guy for saying something questionable and tell him, "Hey, that's sexist." I think the culture's changing. When I was much younger, it was an exotic novelty to see a girl playing hockey with us, now the boys don't seem to notice any difference.

500_Apples wrote:

I think the underlying belief behind the word "player" is that men are forced into monogamy by society.

I think the nuclear family is a model that men and women are encouraged to conform to, and yeah, it primarily benefits men because traditionally it is a situation in which they have most of the control.  But monogamy is another thing entirely. There are plenty of men and quite a few women who have no problem with playing around even though they are attached - most often by cheating, but sometimes not.

And speaking of which, I think the "slut" reference you are talking about might be in reference to the book "The Ethical Slut" - the notion that having open or other relationships is fine so long as all parties are okay with it.

@ 500_Apples

I think in a lot of male circles a man is not supposed to express interest in a committed relationship even if it is what he is interested in.

I never hung out in groups where guys goaded each others about making "plays" on women or talked about body parts (though I have certainly heard enough of it in public).

Even among my friends though, love relationships and the desire to have a partner were not something we talked about in the way women share their feelings and expectations with each other (or even the way that women have spoken to me, and vice versa).

I have two close, longtime male friends now for whom that is an exception, but it is not something I would ordinarily ask about, even guys who were roommates of mine. I certainly would not have done so when I was in my 20s.

I havent finished kicking this around in my own head. But maybe I'm not going to get any further on my own, so I'll toss it out as far as it goes.

I was thinking about alQ's note upthread. And on reflection, egregious sexist performing among men on their own might not be as bad as it was 20-30 years ago. [Though I'm never in the kind of 'young buck' milieuxs of the construction industry where I saw this 30 years ago.] And I do also see a lot more evidence of boys and young men accepting women as peers and equals- apparent reflections that they have grown up with more of that.

But at the same time I see no evidence of any change that this is becoming less of a rape culture.

In other words, it might be true that even with men coming to accept women as their peers and equals, some of them that do so are also rapists.

Obviously, some of them are rapists. But for all we know, they are just as likely to be rapists as are the guys who are outwardly make it clear they dont see women as their equals.

Thats part of the problem of thinking about changing guy culture... when you dont spend any time there. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty about spending zero time with people I work with. But thats the end of it- just feel a bit guilty.

I don't even 'hang out with the guys' among my chosen friends. Although thats partly a peculiarity of the distnace I live from most people I chhose to have in my life.

I see representations on T.V., and listen at lunch and break to guys arranging going out for a round of golf, and I don't even have the slightest twinge of feeling like I am missing something.  In fact, I feel a sense of relief that I'm not included.

Which might not be odd if I was always the odd ball, but I played sports, I hung with the guys, I do fit in.  I just don't want to.

I'm not sure changing guy culture can happen in a group dynamic.    I think you have to lead by example, for one, and for another do the changing one on one.

I've shared my views one on one with guys that using a street prostitue who is only plying her trade because of drug addiction is in fact rape, and I've never been contradicted, but I doubt it's something that would fly in a group of guys.  

What about guy culture here on babble?

Reading this thread, most of the men participating seem to indicate they don't hang around with other men in groups. Yet I think it can be argued that babble *is* largely directed by male culture. It is certainly dominated by male contributors. How does this reality fit in with larger societal male culture? How do male contributors acknowledge this (or not)? What is it about babble that results in such a gender imbalance? Is there any opportunity to self-reflect about this? What could be done to address it? Is it something to be addressed? That's what I mean.

She asked a question, I merely suggested it could use its own thread and if it interested writer then writer might wish to start a thread on it. Frankly, I thought her question was a dig. Many generic digs re. men on Babble are appearing lately. A frank, full and open discussion would be preferable to the what I have been perceiving as many drive by snipings on the topic. I presume you see it differently, KenS?  

You want to disprove my theory that, above all, men fear apologizing by apologizing for posting that you frankly thought I was throwing out a dig and doing a drive by - rather than just asking for clarification if you wondered what my motives were, and giving me an opportunity to expand, if expansion / clarification was needed?

I'm trying to follow you,writer. I get the first three sentences but I lose the thread after that. Could you elaborate so i can better understand what you are saying?

I think babble definitely has a unique male subculture, made up of men who consider themselves variously feminists, feminist-sympatico, feminist-savvy, etc. Yet we still have the benefit of retreating to male privilege, and the strategies, comfort, affirmation that entails in ways in which we can consciously ignore, because, consciously, we "get it." In that regard babble can be somewhat treacherous in that it provides a space of male privilege disguised as a feminist-positive space, or a space of equality. It's not, of course. We men are all guilty of that in different ways, I think.

I also wonder about the pleasure it give us men to say feminist-positive things, unconsciously (or even consciously) aware of the above dynamic. It's kind of perverse isn't it? I'm referring to this post, in fact. Not that men "don't have a right" to say feminist things--I'm just wondering about our affective state when we say them. It's very hard, at least for me, to say a feminist thing and give only that thing to equality, feminism, utopia, whatever--without also taking pleasure at the fact that *I* can say it. It's ego, innit? And that's male culture in a word.

Signed,

Your Freudian intervention for the day.

Dear Sigmund,

Whats an affective state?

Caissa wrote: "My observation that i believe that type of behaviour has been happening lately stands."

writer responded: "... And then your behaviour laces together with other such behaviour to prove that, yes, this type of behaviour has been happening. Lately, I'm not so sure. Think it's been part of the culture here for a while."

Caissa asked: "Could you elaborate so i can better understand what you are saying?"

---

You assumed I was doing a drive by, rather than raising an honest question in a thread I encouraged 500_Apples to start (receiving, by the way, a nasty sludge of insults for doing so). You apologize for the assumptions you made, but also seem to partially justify your hairtrigger response by indicating that it was informed by the driveby behaviour you are seeing on babble lately.

So your assumption, followed by a public slam of me, had - at the moment before your apology - added to the driveby culture that I think you do not like here. You became part of the behaviour / culture you wish to condemn.

However, your apology does much to counteract this nasty dynamic. I think a simple apology and acknowledgement can stop it cold. So many thanks for that.

In terms of whether this driveby stuff is a recent trend, my observation since the birth of babble is that it is not.

Edited to further clarify: I'm addressing what I perceive to be the use of mangled mindreading / digs / drive by / smears / assumptions of the worst in general, rather than on a specific subject.

Many thanks.

writer wrote:

Reading this thread, most of the men participating seem to indicate they don't hang around with other men in groups. Yet I think it can be argued that babble *is* largely directed by male culture. It is certainly dominated by male contributors. How does this reality fit in with larger societal male culture? How do male contributors acknowledge this (or not)? What is it about babble that results in such a gender imbalance? Is there any opportunity to self-reflect about this? What could be done to address it? Is it something to be addressed? That's what I mean.

No question in my mind that babble is dominated by male culture and male contributors. But where does this fit in and what to do about it? Why is there such a gender imbalance?

Unfortunately, we are dealing with two different things here.

One is what seems to be the norm of on-line forums in general- that is pervasive beyond what its particular participants/contributors do and don't do. Babble and similar forums- even old email lists- draw from an activist cadre. Yet, no matter what kind of organizations you are involved with, they are not remotely as male directed or dominated as are these on-line forums. There is something about them that I intuitively get, but cant entirely put my finger on how it works.

But there's a simple factor that even women with the same intersts and values [those fellow activists that Babble draws almost all of us from] just aren't generally interested in these kind of on-line discussions. And I suspect that would be true even if the discussion dynamic were more holesome and fulfilling in its own right. [A dynamic most men dont like either. I don't like it, to the point that I'm currently down to just a few topics I'll consider discussing here.]

I think there is some reason men are MUCH more likely to want to spend their time on a keyboard in a place like this. And thats beyond us to change.

On top of that, the discussion dynamic scares off a ton of people, even more of them women. As much as I plead about that, and try to take my own practical steps, I'm realistic that it would probably take a huge commitment to change that. Which leaves us more or less with the Babble we've got, and similar on-line forums.

Getting to the point: I'm already doing everything I can to make this a less alientaing place. Which at least would put off fewer women. Leaving aside questions of effectiveness, I'm trying.

I'm inclined to think that reflecting on what babble is like is a very small slice of the reflection required by the topic of this thread. And possibly a distraction. Yes, its where we are... and writer makes a good point  that HERE is a largely male group we are part of. But....

I dont see any 'handles' yet.

Personally, I think its worth a lot. In my own case, I don't have much for alternatives.

But I don't think that changes the practicality or force of my question.

There is a bit of a paradox to men discussing men's domination of discussion.

Acknowledging it is one thing, but it seems to me that once we have established that dynamic exists there isn't too much to say. To do the right thing is to do less, or in some cases, nothing -not talking or responding, and reminding others that they might want to do (or NOT do, actually) the same.

@ writer

Yup, I think this is a start. As for the domination of discussion, I'll start another thread, so as not to veer off from the topic of this one.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/culture/male-domination-discussion

And thanks.

I don't agree that there are "too many variables to guess at" when men participate in typical masculine heterosexist narratives and structures which are active in society and which we can all identify. Which female celebrity has the best tits, legs, ass, thumbs, face, etc.? This is not a subtle equation. It's a conversation which "happens" everywhere, in every context. What changed was my response: which spaces, situations, are more male, more heterosexist? A bar, as NY gay activists proved with great effect in the 60s and 70s, ranks right up there with number one. Does that change at a different time of day? What if the men involved share a much more fraught relationship with performing maleness, as did the men involved in my scenario (in my opinion)? They were performing masculinity much mroe explicitly, and much more uncomfortably, than the men usually associated with those stereotypes--or, more accurately, the men we usually reduce to those stereotypes. I was concerned with my role in that situation--am I a steward of masculinity? Am I responsible for my partner's gendered comfort? Am I responsible for the behaviour of strangers? These are the questions that troubled me.