Babble Discussions, continued. A new

"I also believe that there is a particular cultural paradigm within which these conversations happen which in fact are NOT inclusive of other cultural methods of having discussions."

Can someone, Yiwah preferably, elaborate on what some other cultural forms of discussion entail?  I'm not sure what this means in practice.   

i agree bubbles.  We're all just talking to a screen.  

I don't agree with the point about the quantity though.  the swarming like ants reference makes me think of two people having a conversation and then a bunch of men swarming around them and all trying to talk at once!  I've seen a few references on the boards to this kind of thing but can someone present a real life example/hypothetical situation?

Same with the quality thing.  I mean, everyone who who is having a disagreement over politics is generally pretty passionate about them being right.  And someone challenging points you've made is obviously going to say " i think you're wrong about this that and the other thing", i don't think that's sexist as much as just the only constructive way to have a discussion.  How do you reason with someone other than by presenting a better quality argument?  

or is the quality thing meant sarcastically.  They really present BAD arguments (ignoring most relevant facts, repeating orthodoxy) but refuse to see the flaws in them?

To me it seems the only cure to male domination of discussions then is to democratize the agenda setting media or present viable alternatives so that women have a say in what gets said. 

wonderful to see men denying gendered control of this forum and society....ffs.

You see why some of us are ignoring this discussion.

But Caissa, you are not ignoring this discussion. You are posting from time to time, making it very clear that you couldn't be bothered to post anything meaningful in discussions on this subject that are of such low quality.

What compels you to weigh in with nothing? Why do you think this needs to be communicated repeatedly? What are you saying to participants, other than that you are above and beyond us?

Quote:

To me it seems the only cure to male domination of discussions then is to democratize the agenda setting media or present viable alternatives so that women have a say in what gets said.

Exactly why rabble was created. So why does babble continue to fall short? And what can we do about it?

If a babbler wants a male-only thread for such a discussion, s/he only needs to raise that as the intent in the OP.

What question is being asked here?

The OP seems to talk about a gendered bias and a cultural bias on babble discussions.

I assume that I can find all "WASP gendered" example discussions I need here on babble, but are there any examples of a "female gendered", or a "different-cultured" discussion?

I'm not denying the existence of either gender or culture biased methods of discussion ... just saying I am not familiar with how they are structured and the differences between them and our current "WASP" biased discussions.

Another question/point ... to my mind there is a difference between a discussion and a conversation, adversarial debate and advising. This is a political discussion board, so the "conversations" will tend to lean toward discussing points of disagreement (a different board with a different terms of use might be able to force disagreements into a resolution process that becomes the "new truth", but let's recognize that babble is more about expressing opinions than forcing a specific form of left wing opinion on the group ... that's the job of a political party.) I hope we are not going to dismiss  too much of "babble the debate" in favour of 24/7 "babble the conversation".

6079_Smith_W you have a pm.

:rolleyes:

Could those posters here who have chosen only to contribute drive-by one-liners to this discussion please resist the urge to do so? It's snipey, disruptive and derails the discussion.

I'd also like to point out that all of babble operates with the understanding that we live in a patriarchal society, which systematically privileges men and marginalizes women. That's a babble first principle. It's in the policy statement and you have all agreed to abide by it. If this discussion is to continue, that is the foundation it needs to take, otherwise it will be cut short. Okay?

Is the shrek layers thing the official summary points of what things aught to be taken into account to make this place more inclusive?  Given we've gone through 2.25 threads worth of posts in about a week on this subject I'm not sure how much we can lament the lack of participation of some members.  Well we may have hoped the discussion went differently but there has been an awful lot of discussing going on...particularly for the culture section. Not even the sacred football threads get this much play.

remind wrote:

an honest statement?

 

lol

IMV, I figure they are ignoring it.....no matter wherther they post or don't.

I am confused as always in these debates. Male domination happens because males dominate and are aggressive rather than assertive.  So how does one tell the difference between assertive and aggressive.   It can't just be about the gender of the poster.

Remind, I love most of your posts but if a man had posted that comment it would have been a perfect example of an in your face post designed to shut down discussion.  That is why I have a problem with seeing this issue only through a gender lens.  Old Goat is my Holy Grail of how one should post.  But I have clay feet so I am too often aggressive instead of assertive when my hot button issues are at play just as I believe happens to you Remind when your hot buttons are pushed, like this thread and its subject matter. 

yeah i would totally agree with you on that.  Typically belittling and other forms of personal attacks and the "you're on the enemy's side" would be ways which men dominate discussion.  That would be especially intimidating if it was in person.  

But i would say most canadians, of both genders, are pretty ignorant of oppression and discrimination.  In my personal experience (which might not be representative of most people's experience) i don't find it to be a gender thing, to me that's more a class thing or a generational thing.  Or do you mean lack of understanding of the oppression against women specifically?  Cause then i would agree.  

I would agree with you on that too! You can really see how often that POV is used to set the agenda and tone of mainstream debate.  Issues like the conservative plan to scrap affirmative action seems like a good example of what you're talking about, when the most privileged sectors of society start complaining they're being discriminated against when in reality the society is built to empower THEM.

i guess as someone who often speaks out regardless of the consequences (lost jobs, ostracized, etc) what bugs me is that like you said so many women will stay out of discussion altogether,  rather than participate and hopefully build some momentum towards change.  especially on the net where there is no repercussions to what you say, why do so many women allow this harmful dynamic to continue by remaining silent?  

remind wrote:

ahhhh, I see, it is women's fault, the poor men have nothing to do with perpetuating it. They really want us to speak out and call them on their sexism....

ooooohhhhh, now i get it. It's all my fault. I see I shouldn't try to discuss this anymore.  Now that I accept that I am to blame I have the knowledge to just go ahead and totally rise above any sexism that is inherint in our culture. Sah-weeet.

I don't see why I shouldn't post the extract from the film c.r.a.z.y where the skinny boy get called a fif and pushed around and laughed at...yep I'm crazy for trying, thanks for kicking me while i'm down.

also remind: 

"In fact you have now rendered yourself for what you are...."

isn't that actually an example of a typical male dominated form of discussion?  

milo204 wrote:

i guess as someone who often speaks out regardless of the consequences (lost jobs, ostracized, etc) what bugs me is that like you said so many women will stay out of discussion altogether,  rather than participate and hopefully build some momentum towards change.  especially on the net where there is no repercussions to what you say, why do so many women allow this harmful dynamic to continue by remaining silent?  

One reason I stay out of some of these discussions (I'm male though) is because the buy in is too high.  Sure, I notice some things that I could speak towards, but, if I know people AREN'T going to get what I'm saying, and I'm going to get three nasty replies, then why bother?  It's not that I'm intimidated about the nasty replies--it's that I recognise that they don't serve my well being.  They get me worked up, and then either I have to put a lot of effort into detaching, or I end up spending a lot of more of my (scarce) time posting back--and for what?  To show someone up?  Because that's mostly what I see going on anyway.  Nobody here needs me to identify the blowhards for them--it's already pretty obvious to most here.

Take your feelings out of this for a minute, and set aside what wonderful things babble COULD be.  For me it's a pragmatic thing.  Let's say you're hungry, and you don't have food, and you need to get some.  Depending on your situation that could mean going to a restaurant, a grocery store, a friend's house or a food bank.  For some people, they don't even have those options--but for  the sake of the example let's go with take out restaurant (I'm assuming that everyone here who has computer access has at times been to restaurants).  You might be hungry, and you might be hungry for a particular item, but that's not the only consideration.  A better restaurant may be further away and getting the food may take more time.  Or, if it is a meal time, some of those places may be really busy and getting the food might mean standing around for ten minutes in a busy loud room.  It's not necessarily that someone is intimidated by the loud, crowded room, or not confident enough to be in the loud, crowded room.  It might be just that, they are tired, or they are rushed, or they are just not looking to be in a loud crowded room.  That's it.

So bringing it back to babble, at times there are situations where I feel I could speak up to what's going on, or that I could offer some useful information.  And some of those times, I do.  And other times I don't.  And, part of my consideration is, who's involved in the conversation, what the conversation is about, how the conversation is going (ie. vibe or feeling of the conversation), and my mood at the time.  To the level that these things matter, it is not about feeling intimidated, or not being confident enough to speak up (because in many ways I am a very confident person, and I feel confident about my ability to communicate and be articulate).  It is about whether the experience will be worth it.  If the person I would be engaging is prone to being a jerk, well that's a reason not to engage.  Because, well, I don't really need the jerk energy.

"What??!?" you exclaim?  Isn't important for us to speak up to tell people when they're being jerks?  No, it's not, because in practice, it doesn't work that way.  It's not all the important, in the sense that people need to realize they're being jerks, because they almost never do.  Most of the people being aggressive jerks here at babble these days were being aggressive jerks on babble five years ago too.  So what's the point in calling them on it?  Especially, if engaging them is going to get me worked up in a negative way?  I don't need that.  If someone's got their head up their ass, then a) they're not going to hear me anyway and b) why is it my responsibility to set them straight?

So I could try explaining to explaining to ebodyknows here, that using the word "crazy" in a conversation like this, even if it's just the title of a video you're linking to, is bound to alienate people and detract from his point.  I could also try explaining to him that a skinny, sensitive white boy being called a sissy in high school (and believe me I got more than my share of it) doesn't really compare to rampant, institutionalized racism or sexism that affects people throughout their lives.  But why bother?  It's not like he's going to be able to hear it.  And, it's not like anybody else is paying much attention to his whining about it.  So yeah, it's not worth engaging him.

Babble is a battle arena, and I think that's what women (and some men) mean when they call this a male dominated space.  And, when people want to relax, drink their coffee/wine, socialize a bit, and catch up on the news and see what's going on, I think generally battle arena isn't the vibe that they're looking for.  For some people, that's exactly what they're looking for, and for some of us, we find some aspects of that engaging, and it's what we're looking for some of the time.  But for other people, it just turns them off, and they want nothing to do with it.  And so maybe they go over to BnR (which I get the sense is not at all a battle arena, although honestly I wouldn't know because I don't read there), or maybe they stay here, because they're already emotionally attached to the people at babble, and they just pick and choose their topics, and when they feel up to it, they speak out against things that go over the top.

The reasons that I seldom post at babble (although I do lurk) are that a) many babbles do not seem to be very good at listening (reading) to what other babblers are saying (writing) b) mostly people are here to hear (read) the sound of the own voice (text) and c) babble's not really a platform for making change in the world--it is mostly about shooting the shit and d) I just don't have the time available and just can't understand how most of you do it--but I suppose I get a lot of my socializiing in with face time.

Again, my personal reasons for not posting have nothing to do with a lack of confidence or feeling intimidated.  HTH

ETA:

milo204 wrote:

remind, actually yes i do want women to speak up and tell men when we're being sexist. How else are things going to change if you don't call people on their shit?

In my observation, most men will ignore it or argue or even laugh if they are told by women that they're being sexist.  This happens on babble.  As well I've observed that men will respond a lot more positively when another man suggests that they are being sexist.  And I mean, it makes sense, right?  Men who don't have much awareness of their own sexist tendencies tend to not quite get it when those sexist tendencies are pointed out by women.

It must be a source of endless frustration for women though to see supposed male allies shrug it off when several women are trying to explain something only to have those same male allies respond more favourably to a man telling them exactly the same thing.

@ milo204 (and to everyone, really)

I'll just repeat a suggestion I have made a couple of times. People are going to express some honest feelings and that sometimes includes anger and language that might be considered abusive.

I'd advise not taking it personally, or more specifically try not to react from a place of outrage or anger. Don't respond in kind. Don't try to defend, and especially do not attack. All that does is shut everything down completely.

Even if you feel someone is saying something unfair or something which does not apply to you personally the best thing you can do is just try to get your defensiveness and your ego out of the way and listen. There might be something in there that is important, no matter what kind of package it is wrapped up in. If you are busy reacting, you might not hear it. And if it is not relevant, there is no reason why you SHOULD be hurt by it at all.

Just my opinion, of course.

remind wrote:

OFFS

You might want to read what I said again before you say that.

I don't agree with how you say everything (the "fuckwad" comment, for one), but then again when it comes to matters of how men's sexism affects women it's not really my place to tell you what to say at all.

The main thing I said was  that it is important that men hear your perspective calmly and without reacting because you do say some important things that we don't hear most places.

(gotta run for a bit. I am making supper)

Can do without your token approval, say nothing of your speaking down to me, and passive aggressive posturing.

Quite frankly, I have been spoken down and condescended to by persons better able to mask their words than you were able to.

Feel like I just participated in a men's rights conversation.

Am so done with you mr smith.

The impact and result I feel from you is not worth the effort.

Am hurt, am slayed, am distraught, especially given what you just said was totally redundant given my last post to you.

But gee..gotta thank you, as you just gave an excellent example of men here not listening to what women say, and of those who think women's words are NOT in fact important, even though you did try to pretend for awhile.

will continue to be broken hearted, for at least the rest of the evening....

Remind, in my experience there are plenty of men who will not accuse you of being mentally ill, ignore you or talk down to you if you try and talk to them about sexism.  Maybe it's your approach?  

I'm here because i do care about it, and want a better understanding of the dynamics of sexism so that i don't participate in perpetuating it.   You give me the impression that sexism is totally inevitable, there's no point in speaking out cause everyone is just going to ignore it, but how else is anything going to change?  No, it's not ideal or just, but it seems the only possible way forward since relying on men to just figure it out on their own obviously hasn't worked.