KenS asked: What is BnR?
Caissa responded: Once upon a time a Great Schism took place at Babble and EnMasse was born. Several months later some of the individuals who left Babble for EnMasse left EnMasse and created Bread and Roses. I frequent all three. Each site has a different feel to it.
Curious. From what I can make out, this seems to be a discussion about feminism and male domination of Babble: Why is it not happening in the Feminism Forum?
remind. from my estimation, the men in this thread are making a good faith step in having this conversation here on babble. While they may not word everything as perfectly as you would like, or defer to you as much as you'd like, and the entire exercise may seem laughable to you, they are trying. If you have nothing to add to the content of the thread, I will politely urge to you to stay out of it.
As for the question of should this thread be in the feminism forum, my vote is that this and any further threads on this topic should be either there or in rabble reactions. KenS, what do you think?
The "culture" forum is usually meant for culture in the outside/meat world, not babble culture.
Cueball, when all this started to evolve, I had suggested that the feminism forum would be appropriate. The people starting these threads thought otherwise, as they are free to.
Well, are there not greater constraints on male commenters in the feminism forum? As this thread has developed, I've become more and more interested in reading what the men are saying -- I agree with Maysie that many of them are writing thoughtfully and in good faith, and I think this is a useful exercise to continue.
@ 40:
And so maybe they go over to BnR (which I get the sense is not at all a battle arena, although honestly I wouldn't know because I don't read there)
Heh. Little do you know indeed. ;-)
BnR is little. Women are in the majority there as men are in the majority here. For similar reasons, though, that tends to mean that, just as all the women babblers are FABULOUS, all the men at BnR are FABULOUS too.
BnR has seen some battles, but a lot of the members there are also bloggers and use the site more as a hub to check in to -- we all try to keep it updated with news links, eg, probably more than we analyse at length (that gets saved for the blogs). There is community bonding going on, but it's a resource base too.
And we have dancing bunnies and huggies.
I dont have any sense of ownership to the discussion. I guess I did open the last 2 threads, and tried to propell the discussion. Culture seemed an odd choice to me.
As to not being in the feminist forum, that hadnt been discussed out. And since it was men taking the initiative, its no surprise they didnt want to take the inititiative to launch it in the feminist forum- even if a woman had suggested maybe it would be a good idea.
I suspect it would have seemed like an appropriation. I dont think its going to matter where it is. The topic has been noticed for what it is.
skdadl, the suggestion was a male-only discussion in the feminism forum. I indicated that I personally thought it would be a great idea, but that others active in the forum / thread might disagree. I was quickly and viciously attacked for the suggestion, confirming my theory ;0].
KenS, you haven't been following the evolution, so it might be a good idea not to pronounce on it. I explicitly made the suggestion to 500_Apples on a thread in feminism. He then started an outshoot thread in culture instead of the feminism forum. Smith then started another discussion as an outshoot of the one established by Apples.
And so, here we are.
@ writer
I was going to PM you because I don't want this to be misinterpreted as public whining by a guy, but there is a reason why I don't think the feminist forum is appropriate.
First of all, it is about men, and in terms of setting the tone babble's policy about feminism applies to the whole site just as much as in the feminist forum, so I don't think there is any advantage to having it in the feminist forum.
Why I think it would not be so good to have it there is what happened in the "Don't Rape Part 1" thread, which ended with a very strong opinion that men should not post there at all. I know that was not your intention as the OP, and I know there were some men who took that discussion in a questionable direction. It was kind of confusing though, because the topic was about the fact that men need to learn and change, not women, so I'm sure there were a few men (myself included) who felt we had a responsibility to at least say something and not sit silently by.
But the bottom line for me is that in the feminist forum if a woman comes in and says she wants all the guys out it is not really my place to say no and start telling her otherwise. When that happened I said nothing and got the hell out, and frankly I don't plan to post in the feminist forum anytime in the future since some see it as a form of men's appropriation and control. At least if this discussion is in another forum that issue will not be hanging over this discussion and we won't have to worry that we are imposing our presence on someone else's space where we are not welcome.
Again, I'm not whining, but in the absence of a clear rule I'd rather err on the side of caution and not put myself in that position again.
No worries, Smith. I was simply giving the history to answer Cueball's question. I also indicated it was a suggetion that folks were free to embrace or not. You've provided further context. Many thanks.
The decision didn't bother me one bit. And the controversy with which my suggestion was met indicates that there were many reasons not to pursue the discussion in that forum.
The entire board is (theoretically) informed by feminism. I think the forum is more mindful of that notion, and when men pipe up without keeping that front and centre, it can be hugely distructive. Personally, I don't feel that means no men, but as long as some whip in there to toss off normative straight white male privileged cultural assumptions, we need things like women-only threads to stop the whiplash and domination. Unfortunately.
I look forward to the day when the majority of participants here are more mindful of babble's position as a feminist, anti-racist, working class, LGBTQIA forum. For that to happen, men need to talk through some of the stuff that, to this point, is mostly not acknowledged / dealt with. There needs to be a critical mass, and that needs men, who dominate this board, often with no sense of what that domination means. Who the dynamic excludes and alienates.
I'm very happy to see this discussion happen.
i'd also really like to see a thread started by some female babblers to help the men here understand what domination means by talking about some of the ways it's manifested itself, or the direction it seems to be headed in or just some hypothetical examples. I find there are many more direct references to examples of this behavior in the feminism forum, but these past few threads have dealt more with general principles such as being aggressive, talking over each other, accusations, name calling etc. and more subtle ways of dominating other than the usual in your face sexism that men such as us are more used to confronting.
There's one already on the go. It explores both the subtle and the not-subtle. Please start with the article linked to.
http://rabble.ca/babble/feminism/why-misogynists-make-great-informants-h...
Why I think it would not be so good to have it there is what happened in the "Don't Rape Part 1" thread, which ended with a very strong opinion that men should not post there at all. I know that was not your intention as the OP, and I know there were some men who took that discussion in a questionable direction. It was kind of confusing though, because the topic was about the fact that men need to learn and change, not women, so I'm sure there were a few men (myself included) who felt we had a responsibility to at least say something and not sit silently by.
Right, this is what I thought, more or less. It seems to me though that a positive discussion about feminism should be able to abide by the general guidelines of the Feminist Forum, whereever it is. It would seem that such a discussion would be best served by prioritizing womens voices, and allowing them to lead the discussion.
Now, I know that on babble this might mean that discussions might not move along as fast as elsewhere, due to the fact that there would be some limits put upon men to dominate the discussion (if only because men are the majority of the board's active members) actually allowing womens voices to be prioritized might serve the object better of reducing male domination of the board, not in terms of what may or may not be said, but in the manner of how the discussion itself takes place.
On the surface, it seems that having the discussion outside of the FF is basically an attempt to have a discussion about Feminism free of the restrictions in the Feminism Forum that make it particularly feminist by prioritizing women's perspective and allowing women to lead the discussion from a Feminist point of view. It is to allow for a discussion of feminism, that is dominated by the male point of view.
I think there may be some problems with that.
Well Well Well.....and here we go again. Poor Remind! She keeps getting clobbered by Maisie the "Kick My Arse" Maisie who has middle finger telling us all where the hell to go!! WOW - this dame weighs in at the so-obvious wrong places. I haven't been to rabble for quite sometime excepting for a little peek because, quite frankly, the conversations are often more than trite except for those who come in, say something intelligent and blow away unto better forums.
Remind: I had mentioned, along with integrity, that: Why be the teachers of the men? Are we still going to be the "mammas" teaching the little kiddies or are we going to take our power and do what we can to teach those who have the willingness and intelligent to WANT TO GET IT AND GET IT - NOW! When we waste time spoon feeding the guys who consistently put it all back on us, well....guess what? Time to move on. You said that you and Maisie have a history - you have cried, you have laughed.....etc......Why do I feel that you did a whole lot more crying around this dictatorial human being than laughing a lot? She's got it in for you woman - hopefully you will empower yourself by seeing that and getting the lesson big time. Maysie does not deserve you.....and you on the other hand have something to learn from all of this. There are too many people ready and willing to learn. You have spent so much time trying to educate those who simply want to argue with you and prove yoou wrong. Or you will end up wasting your energy on baby steps with 'em. As integrity had said awhile back: LET THE MEN LEARN AND TEACH ONE ANOTHER. Time to leave their mammas behind. Time to have a brain of their own without mamma holding the hand. If not now, when fellas?
AS FOR MAISIE - GET TO KNOW THE HONOURARY MEN AS THEY ARE CALLED IN FEMINIST PARLANCE. THE BULLIES WHO GLADLY HOLD THE HANDS OF THE MEN WHO INSULT AND DENIGRATE. Someone, I assume a guy, really put you down for simply speaking up. Hey - Remind - you didn't know your place!!!!!! And Maizie hit on your most inappropriately. It was in fact most offensive. She weighed in and you got sucker punched. Yet again. REMIND - SEE THROUGH THE LINGO OF THE MAISIES TOO. What she said was inappropriate, harsh and not deserved. What on earth is this woman doing on rabble?
Bye again folks. I'm on to teaching those who are teachable. Bye Maisie. YOU have a whole lot to learn. Are you going to learn it?
... On second thought, I won't.
b star, while your post #63 is going to be a challenge to moderate, I'm going to give it a try.
Personal attacks are not permitted on babble. Personal attacks against moderators are allowed a bit of leeway given the super-duper powers we have (koff).
However, post #63 goes a bit far.
My learning curve has been a bit too generous I've now come to realize.
Your account is suspended until further notice. Have a nice day.
On the surface, it seems that having the discussion outside of the FF is basically an attempt to have a discussion about Feminism free of the restrictions in the Feminism Forum that make it particularly feminist by prioritizing women's perspective and allowing women to lead the discussion from a Feminist point of view. It is to allow for a discussion of feminism, that is dominated by the male point of view.
I think there may be some problems with that.
As for being dominated by the male point of view, that remains to be seen. If it does turn into a big boys club there isn't much point, but it needs to be in a place where men actually can speak without offending some women. That's my only concern about having it as part of the feminist forum, as I explained above. Like I said, I personally don't intend to do that again.
And although we need to listen to women's voices, and I'm happy for any who want to offer their advice, I wouldn't assume that many of them are standing in line to act as kindergarten teacher. I think I have heard it expressed once or twice (in places other than here as well) that there are plenty of women who don't feel it is their job to teach men anything.
And although I personally think any public forum is always going to be like school because there are always new people, I am also inclined to trust the process a little bit and see how it works.
And KenS, I don't have any personal attachment to this either, but think it's a good idea to keep it as a reminder. We might want to call the next installment "Leading a Horse to Water..."
I find training oneself to shut up is effective, sometimes.
I agree that it SHOULDN'T be a woman's responsibility to have to teach men about sexism, but obviously we men are not doing a very good job teaching each other. I think women still need to play a role in making these issues front and center, and calling men on their sexism.
Even if they brush it off, seem dismissive, you can bet they will be more likely to think about it, and less likely to do it if they are confronted about it on a regular basis. Of course it sucks to have to do this, but i guess that's why it's called a "struggle".
