Continued from here.
Issues Pages:
Mobilizing Support for Joe Pantalone Part 2
Mon, 2010-09-27 15:39
#1
Maysie
Mobilizing Support for Joe Pantalone Part 2
Mon, 2010-09-27 18:34
#2
New Ipsos-Reid poll on the Toronto Mayoralty:
Smitherman would win head-to-head mayoral race: poll
28% - Ford
23% - Smitherman
10% - Pantalone
7% - Rossi
7% - Thomson
17% - Undecided
8% - Who knows? It's an Ipsos-Reid poll. It doesn't have to add to 100.
Mon, 2010-09-27 20:18
#3
whoops seems that Smitherman is coming back to life.
Mon, 2010-09-27 20:28
#4
is there a point to this election? =/
Mon, 2010-09-27 21:14
#5
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX47xJE6JBU]Why Pantalone Will Be Mayor[/url]
Mon, 2010-09-27 22:08
#6
Cueball
whoops seems that Smitherman is coming back to life.
How is polling at exactly the same level that he did a year ago indicate life. As for the two way race thing, isn't this the poll where they asked people if they would vote Smitherman or Ford if they were the only two choices on the ballot but did not ask who would they vote for Pantalone or Ford if they were the only two on the ballot.
Mon, 2010-09-27 22:23
#7
I'm not surprised by those results. I think that Ford has peaked too soon and seeing him so far ahead a month before the election is a bit of a wake up call for people. Voting for him is no longer just a "protest vote". I've met people who were going to vote for him because they thought he could never win. Now people are starting to look at him as a potential mayor and it ain't a pretty sight. Whatever you may think of Smitherman personally, he was Barbara Hall's chief of staff so he knows SOMETHING about municipal governance. He can walk and chew gum at the same time. Its easy to say that Ford and Smitherman would be equally bad - but the thing about Ford is that not only is he a total loose cannon but the very fact of him winning would send out a really ugly message about Toronto and would create a lot of momentum for everything he represents.
I think that at this point the best outcome (among outcomes that are seriosuly possible) is for Smitherman to crawl across the finish line but in a very weak state and deeply indebted to people on the left who just coudn't stomach Ford - then maybe he won't do too much damage.
Mon, 2010-09-27 22:56
#8
Cueball
Meh. Actually if you had your head screwed on straight you would understand that what is really important is for Smitherman to lose, since it will show the provincial Liberals that they can not take the left for granted, and they can't out-right the right to victory. What happense provincially counts far more than who is sitting in the mayors seat. It's not like any right wing voters are thinking... gee I better vote for Smitherman in order to make sure that the left doesn't get in. But of course the left always votes against itself, whereas the right votes on principle.
Indeed, Smitherman and Dalton McGuinty have been banking on this phenomena and adevertising it in the Toronto Star as their campaign strategy ever since Smitherman's campaign went off the rails. The left is pretty dumb though and always let the right call the shots, which is why they get no respect from voters, because a "man who stands for nothing, will fall for anything."
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:05
#9
"It's not like any right wing voters are thinking... gee I better vote for Smitherman in order to make sure that the left doesn't get in."
We don't know that. Its quite possible that if Miller had run for re-election, Smitherman would have run as the "anti-Miller" and if polls showed a close race - you might have seen right of centre voters coalescing around Smitherman.
We certainly see in BC how many rightwingers are willing to swallow hard and hold their noses while voting for Gordon Campbell just to stop the NDP.
Anyways, elections are not about "teaching a lesson" to anyone. I remember people who were happy to see Harris win in 1995 because it "taught Bob Rae a lesson". I'd still like to know what lesson people think he was taught and whether it was worth eight years of Harris just to teach him a lesson.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:09
#10
Cueball
It was very good that people voted against Rae to teach the NDP a lesson. Unfortunately, some peoplen in the NDP didn't learn it.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:11
#11
Cueball: The best thing that could happen to McGunity is a Ford win. One year of Ford and McGuinty wiould look great.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:13
#12
What lesson and which people?
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:13
#13
Cueball
Indeed, Ford would be able to do very little in the way of real damage and would be hamstrung by an antagonistic council. Four years of that would be very good for the left.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:14
#14
Cueball
What lesson and which people?
You. Apparently. You missed it entirely.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:15
#15
[quote=Cueball]
It was very good that people voted against Rae to teach the NDP a lesson. Unfortunately, some peoplen in the NDP didn't learn it.
[/quote
Okay and we are all still paying dearly for that lesson and eight years of Harris.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:17
#16
Cueball
Are you still denying that it was Rae who launched the anti-union austerity program that was followed up by Harris?
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:17
#17
Indeed, Ford would be able to do very little in the way of real damage and would be hamstrung by an antagonistic council. Four years of that would be very good for the left.
Don't underestimate some of those yahoos desire for power as they suck up to Ford.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:19
#18
Cueball
They couldn't organize their collective ass out of a paper bag. That is why they suck, and Joe is good. Joe can actually get things done.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:24
#19
Indeed, Ford would be able to do very little in the way of real damage and would be hamstrung by an antagonistic council. Four years of that would be very good for the left.
I hate to contribute a Godwin moment - but its worth noting that when Hitler was appointed chancellor in 1933 - the conventional wisdom was that he was a "buffoon" (like Ford) and that since he only had 33% of the seats in the Reichstag there was little damage he could do (same as is said about Ford) and that making him chancellor would actually be "good for the left" because the Communists rationalized that after people watched Hitler flop they would then swing to the far left and sweep the Communists to power (and I don't think they were counting on WW2 and the Soviets installing Communists in the DDR!).
I have very mixed opinions about what is worse Ford or Smitherman - but I don't think we should be too quick to dismiss the possibility that Ford as mayhor could actually do far more damage than we like to admit.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:27
#20
They couldn't organize their collective ass out of a paper bag. That is why they suck, and Joe is good. Joe can actually get things done.
Yep I agree with you they the yahoos right and left arne't organizers but Joe won't be there> It will be either Ford or Smitherman and they the yahoos will suck up to the power!
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:27
#21
Cueball
Ford is Hitler now. Ok.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:29
#22
Mature comment Cueball!
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:31
#23
Cueball
I didn't say that Ford was Hitler. That was Stockholm.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:31
#24
Cueball
Repost
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:31
#25
Cueball
They couldn't organize their collective ass out of a paper bag. That is why they suck, and Joe is good. Joe can actually get things done.
Yep I agree with you they the yahoos right and left arne't organizers but Joe won't be there> It will be either Ford or Smitherman and they the yahoos will suck up to the power!
It is not going to be Smitherman. He is polling at precisely the same level as he has for the last eon, and Pantalone is not dropping out. In that light, the best way to go it to vote Joe, since a strong Joe vote sends a strong message overall.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:32
#26
The sad thing is that we are faced with awful choice. There are plenty of Tories who are mildly tolerable compared to Ford (like John Tory) and there are some Liberals who are not as emotionally retarded as Smitherman and there are New Democrats who are more dynamic than Pantalone. Its as if people have to choose between the dregs from each party.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:38
#27
Cueball
So what you really mean to say is that you want Joe to do all the work and your laissez faire attitude is really just a cover for the fact that you don't want to canvas and add your scintillating and dynamic personality to the cause.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:47
#28
As usual, you have to resort to unprovoked dehumanizing personal insults...there goes another thread down the drain.
Mon, 2010-09-27 23:48
#29
As the starter of the thread, I think your Rob Ford = Hitler comment takes the cake! (*Henry* Ford, maybe...)
Tue, 2010-09-28 00:27
#30
I'm not saying that Ford is the same as Hitler by any means at all. I'm merely pointing out that Hitler was also written off as a buffoon who would never be able to put his program into practice - and the rest is history.
Tue, 2010-09-28 00:35
#31
The one should have run for mayor was Shelly Carroll. A Liberal in name only who votes like a New Democrat and who is from North York and therefore not easily written off as another "downtowner". But alas, we are stuck with the choices we have. I can't believe I'm actually wishing John Tory had run for mayor.
Tue, 2010-09-28 00:56
#32
High Park is "downtown"???
Tue, 2010-09-28 01:01
#33
Cueball
The loser mentality just makes for great copy. Here you are actually saying that you WANT Smitherman to win because you don't think Pantalone is charming enough.
Tue, 2010-09-28 05:36
#34
Stockholm isn't calling Ford "Hitler" but is drawing an analogy that is very sobering. If Ford is elected, even on a minority of the vote, he will have the levers of power. He will be seen to have a mandate. He already has the backing of Flaherty. His father was part of Harris' caucus.
What I forsee is that the pros from the hard right will come in to to assit him implement his agenda. They will soften his sharper personal edges.
Nor should we take much comfort from Ford having only one vote on council. The Miller "majority' was always very tenuous. I have often shaken my head at how many right wingers a supposedly progressive city elects in municipal elections.
A few more seats and the conservative faction will be dominant. It may be that they may personally dislike Ford but power goes where power is.
Tue, 2010-09-28 06:33
#35
Cueball
Yeah. Except this assumes that the "right" council will all not be as tenuous as the Miller council. This sword cuts both way, and it is hard to conceive of a council that is not going to be to the left of Ford. In other words, to get a right consensus, it will probably resolve to something like what Smitherman would do. So, in effect, either way, you can get a Smitherman like platform with Ford at the helm, or a Smitherman like platform with Smitherman at the helm.
And large block of Smitherman "strategic" votes encourages a Ford led city hall to believe that the broad consensus is in line with right agenda, overall, and that will give Ford ammunition to bring the right wing of the council into line.
A Smitherman vote is deadly either way. Win or lose. You get Ford doing the Smitherman platform, with a broad right mandate, or you get Smitherman operating with the same broad mandate.
Tue, 2010-09-28 07:58
#36
Indeed, Ford would be able to do very little in the way of real damage and would be hamstrung by an antagonistic council. Four years of that would be very good for the left.
Not if Ford manages to get elected as mayor and take a good number of right-wingers onto council with him.
Tue, 2010-09-28 08:02
#37
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Stockholm isn't calling Ford "Hitler" but is drawing an analogy that is very sobering. If Ford is elected, even on a minority of the vote, he will have the levers of power. He will be seen to have a mandate. He already has the backing of Flaherty. His father was part of Harris' caucus.
What I forsee is that the pros from the hard right will come in to to assit him implement his agenda. They will soften his sharper personal edges.
Nor should we take much comfort from Ford having only one vote on council. The Miller "majority' was always very tenuous. I have often shaken my head at how many right wingers a supposedly progressive city elects in municipal elections.
A few more seats and the conservative faction will be dominant. It may be that they may personally dislike Ford but power goes where power is.
Thanks for the rational interjection, nicky.
That said, I'm supporting Pantalone, for much the same reasons as Cueball just iterated.
Tue, 2010-09-28 08:24
#38
Cueball
Well, ok so, Ford doesn't get elected and the right gets a majority on the council anyway... so... that would still be a right wing majority on council. The Mayor's vote is still only one vote. At the end of the day the mayor will have to work with whoever is there, and whether or not the main axis is to the left or right, the tendency will be for the coalition to move to the center.
Tue, 2010-09-28 08:39
#39
Let's not forget that as a result of the City of Toronto Act, the mayor actually does have a lot more power than just being "one vote out of 45". He or she now gets to personally name the entire executive committee (before it was elected by council), the mayor also gets to personally name all the city representatives on the TTC and the police services board. Let's entertain ourselves thinking about all the lovely people Ford would appoint to all those positions.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:10
#40
Cueball
Yeah, I figured the lightweights in the NDP were moving over to supporting Smitherman. I noticed Mehvic sidling up the Smitherman in the Star today, calling his budget a "good start". Maybe Ford has a point. 30 years of loyal service to the party of surrender doesn't get you a nickel when the weasels start vying to preserve their personal fiefdom's on the excecutive.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:15
#41
writer
UPDATE:Socialist extremists at rabble.ca hope for Smitherman win.Coming to grips with the realization that their preferred candidate, Joe Pantalone, has no hope of winning, the radical socialists and extremists who frequent rabble.ca express hope for a Smitherman win in which he emerges in debt to union interests so they can retain control of city hall.
George Smitherman releases financial plan - reads like "Ford lite"
Funny. Sad.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:30
#42
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Wow.
That takes stockholm even further out-of-context than Cueball does.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:34
#43
Thompson to pull out at 10:00 and give her support to - George.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:37
#44
writer
Thought I'd follow up on my post yesterday regarding Pantalone taking questions at the National Post. Here are the tweets from that discussion: [url=http://live.nationalpost.com/Event/Joe_Pantalone_meets_the_National_Post... Joe Pantalone meets the National Post editorial board[/url]
And here is the National Post feature based on that discussion: [url=http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/09/27/pantalone-aims-to-protect-%E2%80... aims to protect ‘nice city’[/url]
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:55
#45
High Park is "downtown"???
When you live in Scarborough, North York or Etobicoke it is.
Tue, 2010-09-28 09:55
#46
I will be surprised if Thompson endorses anyone, but we will see in a few minutes.
Tue, 2010-09-28 10:03
#47
She did endorse Smitherman
Tue, 2010-09-28 10:06
#48
Cueball
That should have zero impact on anything.
Tue, 2010-09-28 10:06
#49
Cueball
That should have zero impact on anything.
Tue, 2010-09-28 10:21
#50
writer
Only one week until sign day in Toronto. Have you ordered your Joe Pantalone for Mayor sign yet?
http://www.mayorjoe.ca/get-involved/order-and-election-sign/
Tue, 2010-09-28 10:25
#51
I just ordered a sign and made a donation and I'm voting for Joe no matter what. There is still no harm in speculating about the competing dystopias of Toronto under Ford or Smitherman.