Joey Rocks Final CP24 Debate
Joe's won my heart once more by endorsing Himy Sayed as his second choice for mayor after himself. Go Joe Go!
I had a lot of fun with strategic vote bullies on Twitter tonight. Several of them kind of imploded, followed by confessions about their dislike of Smitherman. Only Sarah Thomson seems to have convinced herself that Smitherman had a good performance at the debate.
Smitherman got plenty of boos and showed his ugly side once more by making a joke about Joes height. More boos for that. Ford and Smitherman's bickering did neither of them very much good, but Ford seemed essentially honest while Smitherman turned in an excellent performance in dissembling.
Frankly it is hard to believe that Smitherman knows how to do anything but dissemble and evade and make empty feel good statements, all three of which his is very good at. It is just unimaginable how onerous I find his voice to be now after hearing it over and over again during this race. I can not imagine having to listen to that droning, nasally emptiness for four years with him as mayor.
Worse even than Ford's peevishness.
Ford killed Smitherman on the Courtyard Group question, to which Smitherman repeatedly and obviously evaded. Ford also deflected Smitherman's question about the YWCA women's shelter in his ward.
On the final comment of the debate on what each candidate would like to be remembered for, Joe came in with the only concrete constructive proposal, saying he would like to be remembered as a "City builder" who brought in "Transit City".
Joe was humourous and upbeat. The message is that Joe Pantalone is no quitter. Excelent job by Joe all round.
Good comment at the Star after Jame's latest article:
strategic votersHo hum. "Joe is a great guy and I would vote for him if it were not for the other 40% of Smitherman voters who are also not voting for Pantalone for strategic reasons". What kind of "strategy" is that? Sounds like shooting yourself in the foot because everyone else is.
There's my facebook status in a couple of days.
Didn't watch the debate so I can't comment, but you might remember about a month ago I predicted that the Building Trades would never endorse Pants and here it is.
Pants can't get all of the unions and as such he cna't win:
Fred Hahn, president of the provincial wing of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which has almost 100,000 Toronto members, said Pantalone is "the most committed to public services, while Central Ontario Building Trades, representing about 60,000 construction workers in Toronto, is urging its members to support Smitherman.
Didn't watch the debate so I can't comment, but you might remember about a month ago I predicted that the Building Trades would never endorse Pants and here it is.
Pants can't get all of the unions and as such he can't win:
"Fred Hahn, president of the provincial wing of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which has almost 100,000 Toronto members, said Pantalone is "the most committed to public services, while Central Ontario Building Trades, representing about 60,000 construction workers in Toronto, is urging its members to support Smitherman." From todays Star.
[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/inside-city-hall/ho... the 'Get Active Toronto' debate fell apart[/url]
This morning, Ford and Smitherman were last minute no-shows at a debate. Full house of 225 people. According to Himy Syed, drop-out Sarah Thomson made an appearance to deal with media for her friend George.
Based on tweets, Pantalone was well received by the audience.
Seems like Smitherman's managers have realized that he is so toxic he can't handle any more media attention.
He really was repulsive last night, Like a lizard or something. Even Ford seemed more reasonable.
I am listening to the three on Newstalk 1010 and Smitherman is doing well-Ford is not too band and Joe is getting killed!
I am listening to the three on Newstalk 1010 and Smitherman is doing well-Ford is not too bad and Joe is getting killed!
Interesting. Do you actually remember anything that Smitherman said that was concrete? I find his onerous voice puts me to sleep. The fact that his statement are void of anything but repetition of meaningless phrases and evasion means that there is nothing to think about, except of course the fact that he is obviously lying. Possibly even pathologically so.
Did Ford actually ever get an answer on the 10 million to the Courtyard Group question? Or did Smitherman just repeat that quote from the Toronto Star about something completely different than what Ford was asking about?
Exactly. Joe is an excelent candidate, with numerous saleable qualities. He certainly had no more liabilities than any of the other contenders in this race, and indeed in terms of his record, it is miles away superior to either.
If I may step in, from this vantage point it appears to me that Pantalone has been kneecapped and undermined from the get-go. Apparently the Toronto Star wanted Smitherman to be mayor, and people just resigned themselves to that. Of course, given the wild swings in polling in Toronto and the fact that in Calgary Naheed Nenshi came from nowhere to claim the top job, it goes to show you that things are static and they don't change.
Contrast that to the situation in Winnipeg where former NDP MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis is running for mayor. Winnipeg is a city that basically does not throw out incumbent mayors, and Sam Katz had been polling very well until the last couple of months. Is Judy a superhero? Hardly, she has her weaknesses as a candidate, as anybody does, and they are showing in the campaign. In fact, all else being equal, I would suggest that Pantalone is more "mayor material" than Judy. So why is there a realistic probability that Judy will win, despite the odds? It's because here in Winnipeg we want an alternative to what we are seeing, we rolled up our sleeves to make that happen, and we didn't listen to those who said it was impossible.
Sure, what's not to like about Joe - he supports the behaviour of the police during the G20, he supported the city's anti-union stance during the strike last summer, he wants to cut the vehicle registration tax and he's pro-Israel. I'm surprised the National Post didn't back him!
Actually if you have been reading what Joe has said, he actually has a slightly more nuanced position on those things, despite the rather cut and dried analysis of Barry Weislader yourself and the rest of the Socialist Caucus.
On the issue of the strike, he said that he would have intervened in the negotiating process with CUPE much earlier, and on the issue of the Toronto Police actions at the G20 he made the point that the Toronto Police were not under the command of the Chief Blair, noting their generally civil behaviour at the Tamil protests last year.
Now, I agree that council should not have endorsed the police behaviour, but Joe's comments hardly amount to unqualified support for the actions. Indeed they indicate that he is critical of the policing at the G20. Same goes for his statements about the CUPE negotiation.
If he was a true supporter of the workers, he would have resigned as deputy mayor, joined the CUPE picket line and demanded that the cash back for unused sick days live forever!!
Ridiculous enough because Joey knows as well as anyone else in CUPE that CUPE has been open to negotiating away that ridiculous pension plan system that penalizes workers who have used their sick days, because they are actually sick, by reducing their pension. But feel free to cop Toronto Sun editorial talking points, as you please. It only shows how "progressive" you are.
The union never objected to phasing out the plan. There objection was on the basis of getting a compensation of equal value to the loss in workers pensions.
Re: the 1010 debate. I didn't get a chance to hear this one, but just wanted to pass along a comment from an interesting source. Just goes to show that there are many interpretations of the same facts:
Tarek Fatah
Pantalone won tonight's Toronto mayoral debate while my man Smitherman blew it big time. Rob Ford is TO's next mayor, like it or not
http://twitter.com/#!/tarekfatah
Stockholm, you are deliberately baiting and trolling in this thread. Cut it the hell out or you will be asked to stay out.
My only point is that there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the intensity of some people’s support for Pantalone )as if he was some socialist far left messiah) - and the reality that he is a rather bland, middle of the road, mainstream, mildly left of centre municipal politician - whose main claim to fame over the past 30 years is that he was always the one councillor with NDP ties who the rightwing establishment always liked to work with (depending on how you look at it - that could be either something that speaks positively or negatively about him - maybe they liked him because they thought he was a pushover?).
I like him and will vote for him - but I think are projecting a lot on to him - that just isn't there. He seems like a nice enough guy, while Smitherman is very unpleasant. Smitherman would leave the door open to exploring contracting out - though its debatable whether that's even possible given union contracts and provincial labour laws etc...while Pantalone wouldn’t.
In the end it seems like no matter what we do - we are voting for Rob Ford. Smitherman says that a vote for Pantalone is a vote for Ford. Pantalone says that a vote for Smitherman is really a vote for Ford and Ford says that a vote for Ford is a vote for Ford!!
Who exactly do you think has the power to change the provincial labour laws to suit the agenda of the mayor of Toronto? Or is it, who exactly does the provincial government need at city hall to start building its province wide anti-union agenda?
Pantalone, you think?
Nice lift from Jonathan Goldsbie of the National Post there, Stockholm.
George Smitherman is fond of declaring that a vote for Joe Pantalone is a vote for Rob Ford. Joe Pantalone is fond of declaring that a vote for George Smitherman is essentially indistinguishable from a vote for Rob Ford. And a vote for Rob Ford is, of course, a vote for Rob Ford. So if you take all of the candidates at their word, there is no way to not vote for Rob Ford in this election. But I don’t want to vote for Ford.
[url=http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2010/10/... will hate himself no matter how he votes[/url]
Sorry for the plagiarism - I did read that somewhere but i didn't remember who the soruce was - anyways, its a good point!
http://torontoist.com/2010/10/poll_position_close_mayoral_race_gets_closer.php
31% George, 30% Rob, 10% Joe--and in a poll sponsored by the Sun, to boot.
[url=http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/gary-shaul/2010/10/toronto-mayors-race-c... mayor's race: Common sense revolution II[/url]
The more I hear from Rob Ford the more I am reminded of the Common Sense Revolution and Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America". Ford's strategy from day 1 has been to focus on taxes, "wasteful" spending and divisive wedge issues. He is effectively using the Republican playbook and staying on message. When asked what the first thing he would do if elected mayor, Ford said that his very first item of business would be to eliminate the $60 car registration fee. This says it all -- cut taxes, reduce revenues and pander to drivers.
Smitherman was clearly the most polished of the three candidates. His proposal to restrict collective bargaining rights for city employees (garbage, ambulance and probably TTC) is offensive and is a line that no union member should cross. It is the thin edge of the wedge.
Torontonians are faced with a stark choice. Either we elect Ford or Ford-lite Smitherman to carry on the Common Sense Revolution in Toronto or we elect a candidate who understands the impact the CSR has had on the city and who will work to maintain services and move the city forward.
That candidate is Joe Pantalone. Can he win? While the polls show he remains a long shot, he can only win if everyone who thinks he would make the best mayor votes for him and breaks out of the defeatist attitude that "Ford has to be stopped".
I agree with that, but there is more to this than that. And that is that there are very many good reasons to vote for Pantalone even if he loses. A strong vote for Pantalone, even a losing one will have multiple serious impacts beyond the 25th. People have got to stop thinking that elections are the pinnacle of political activity. They are only a small part of it.
Even dictators pay attention to public opinion.
Agreed. Just in time for David Crombie's endorsement of Smitherman:
[url=http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/10/why_i_wont_vote_strategically_for_the... I won't vote strategically for the next mayor of Toronto[/url]
From the man some claim has no new ideas:
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/smartshift/2010/10/joe-pantalone-launches-web-and-mobi... Pantalone launches web and mobile application SeeClickFix[/url]
Too bad we're only getting the new ideas three days before the election. We needed more of this months ago.
The rain cloud arrives, as if on cue.
Too bad we're only getting the new ideas three days before the election. We needed more of this months ago.
Too bad you post here.
Perhaps you should offer to have yourself expelled from the party for total disloyalty. I don't know who you are, but you do. Surely if Buzz Hargrove can be expelled for recomending strategic voting, you could be for taking every oppotunity you possible can to run down one of Toronto's most respected NDP civic leadeers in the middle of an election campaign.
No wonder the NDP riding association in Ward 20 is a no show. Riding association meetings must be toxic.
cueballl_ vote for who you like it iw
s your call not mine-It is my call if I choose to blame you for the election of Rob Ford.
Can you tell us a substantive policy difference between Smitherman and Ford?
How is a vote for Pantalone a vote for Rob Ford? It is a vote for Pantalone. If we keep voting strategically we'll always have the same choices. Screw that. If the people who are currently voting Smitherman because they want no Ford, actually voted Pantalone we'd have no freaking Ford!
You're telling us to vote Smitherman just to defeat Ford.
I'll tell you is responsible for a Ford win - the fools who voted for Ford - no one else.
No its Smtherman's fault for running a completely unpalatable campaign AND being a known bully and jerk.
And there is that :)
I don"t care who you vote for-but knowing that smitherman can beat ford and pantalone can't whne ford is mayor remember that you stayed pure!
As opposed to getting in the pig pen? Ok. Next time you guys run a candidate that you want to appeal to a broad spectrum of voters, try and find one who moves his populism left, as opposed to right. We will get a long better.
Voting for Mussolini to stop Hitler is not much of an option, I am afraid.
well Cueball unlike you I didn't run anyone Frankly I don't like any of the choices
but I will choose the one that can possibly beat ford> unlike you when ford is mayor I will not whine betting you will
Can you tell us a substantive policy difference between Smitherman and Ford?
There actually are some. Ford wants to scrap the city's fair wages policy. Smitherman wants to keep it. Ford wants to end all fund for all arts organizations, Smitherman wants to maintain it. Ford wants to eliminate all street cars, Smitherman wants to keep them. Ford wants to cut the number of councillors from 44 to 22, Smither wants to maintain the status quo.
but I will choose the one that can possibly beat ford> unlike you when ford is mayor I will not whine betting you will
Really? Pray tell what do you not like about Joey Pantalone?
Can you tell us a substantive policy difference between Smitherman and Ford?
There actually are some. Ford wants to scrap the city's fair wages policy. Smitherman wants to keep it. Ford wants to end all fund for all arts organizations, Smitherman wants to maintain it. Ford wants to eliminate all street cars, Smitherman wants to keep them. Ford wants to cut the number of councillors from 44 to 22, Smither wants to maintain the status quo.
1) The fair wage policy is irrelevant, since it is based on industry standards. This is why sub-contracted curbside garbage collectors get 25% less than their city counterparts. Smitherman is totally game for reducing the "industry standard" for certain jobs by forcing further sub-contracting out in garbage collection, and possibly other parts of the public service, such as cleaners for the TTC.
2)Smitherman also wants to end all funds for the arts. He doesn't say that but that is what he means since his budget has no money to support them. His $800,000,000 cut can only be made to services that are not mandated by the province. He explicitly idenitified his priorities as these "core services". Arts funding is not a core service, and will have to be cut.
I have no idea why it is that you are spreading the rumour around that Smitherman is not obviously lying on this point. Indeed, if you look at what is cuttable, (really 25% of the city budget since everything else is mandated by the province), then and 800 milliion cut is a very substantial cut to all peripheral programs. It is a simple calculation, the non-mandated services amount to about 2.3 Billion in services, Smitherman wants to cut that too 1.5 Billion, a 40% cut.
That will have massive impact. If he doeesnt cut the arts, it will be recreation, or ESL programs, and so on and so forth.
3)Ford never said he wlould eliminate all street cars. He said he wanted to eliminate them from certain routes designated by Transit City. When Ford is talking about streetcars he means the Transit City LRT's planned in transit city. He calls them street cars Pantalone calls them Light Rail, these are rhetorical talking point definitions.
"It's possible that in 10 years there could be no streetcars in Toronto," said Ford's deputy campaign manager, Nick Kouvalis."It's not the end of streetcars but we're going to stop the streetcar plan from growing. We can't continue to buy more streetcars."
4)Everyone knows that the 22 councillor thing is crap, unless of course it can be forced upon the council by province.
Its a whole other issue whether Smitherman is sincere or not in what he says. I agree that he is a cynical guy who I don't trust for a second. Who knows, maybe he'll break his promise to freeze property taxes and instead use the money to fund the arts? anything is possible. - but just looking at their platforms and taking them at face value there are some issues where Ford and Smitherman have different policies. There has to be a reason why Arts Vote gives Smitherman and Pantalone each an A+ grade and Ford and F or why the Toronto Environmental Alliance gives Pantalone 100%, Smitherman 90% and Ford 0% or why several unions inclusing the UNITE local representing hotel and restaurant workers and the construction workers unions are endorsing Smitherman. It also goes without saying that Smitherman is gay-positive while Ford is a vicious homophobe. I think it goes without saying that Ford would probably go out of his way to strip all AIDS service organizations of 100% of their funding.
The best thing that can be said about Ford is that he is so stupid and incompetent and abrasive and unable to work with anyone - that his regime as mayor would probably collapse in chaos and nothing he proposes will ever see the light of day - while Smitherman is shrewd enough to actually implement a lot of his agenda. That's a theory in any case. Let's just hope its true.
Grants to arts groups are a very tiny percentage of all expenditures - but they are high profile. I suspect that because Smitherman gets a lot of support from more educated downtown people who like the arts etc... he would probably try to shield the arts from any cuts - while Ford would relish the idea of taking a cleaver to anything artistic in order to please the Philistines who are the core of his support.
If you just look at the bare bones of what he is proposing it is clear he is talking about a 40% cut in non-mandated services. We can believe that he is sincere on this point. What is not sincere is that he can promise to preserve these programs at the same time.
I am dead certain that some unions like UNITE here and the Teamsters are more than happy to back Smitherman, since it is likely they will be key beneficiaries of the sub-contracting out program. UNITE Here has no problem signing off on "no strike" contracts if that means they can expand their membership.
Teamsters indeed represent garbage collectors in Etobicoke.
What scares me about Ford is less the substance of what he would do than what his victory would symbolize. I think that if he wins it will lead to a triumphalist fiesta by the Canadian equivalent of the Tea Party who will brag and gloat about how you can be a vicious racist homophobe and make no apologies about it - and be elected mayor of Toronto!! It will make all of Ford's views become fashionable and I predict that gay-bashing and racially motivated attacks will increase because the thugs who commit those crimes will feel a surge of confidence knowing that the mayor of Toronto is on their side. Expect to see a new level of agreesiveness by the police against the gay community and a repeat of the bath house raids of 1980 is easy to imagine - why not? As long as the police feel that he mayor is a homophobic bigot - why should they think twice about acting on their own bigoted impulses.
Yes. He is that much of a scumbag. Fuck the recreation center programs in Downsview. Indeed, his whole line about investing in "priority people" as opposed to "priority neighborhoods" indicates that he will be eliminating a lot of programs that are part of the priority neighborhoods programs.
Actually, I suspect that Ford would be more likely to preserve those programs that help the "phillistines" in the burbs who support him, as opposed to the posh elite who through great coke parties downtown.